Happy 16th Mary-Elizabeth Arndt

[Artemis]

Hm, I will perhaps NOT write down what came to mind looking at those two words.

[jockosmom]

You know what - I think Mother Arndt is a succubus. I think she's the one who won't let them go.

The only time I've ever seen anything like that photo was with a family I knew once. Female parent had a real emotional incest thing going on with son, on whom she was completely fixated, to the point where if her daughter was speaking to her and her son spoke - to anyone else, not necessarily to her - she would drop daughter dead focally, and switch focus instantly to son. I was visiting once and had to look away as she draped herself across his bed - on which he was also lying - in a manner I can only describe as sexual. (In case you're wondering what I was doing in his bedroom too, I'd been there to do tutoring, and she called me upstairs to pay me. I did not know I'd find the two of them lounging on his bed, eeewww.) It was extremely creepy, but this looks like it. Mother had a breakdown and went into serious depression when he left for uni: son has now moved away, and rarely goes back.

You look at Mother Arndt - the sexy dresses etc, and the cleavage showing and the general Queen Bee thing she has going on - and there has to be emotional incest with those boys. Which makes me worry about Elizabeth and Father Arndt.

Your story about the mother and son you knew makes me think of my youngest sister. She has, in my opinion, an uncomfortably close relationship with her oldest son, who just turned 17 this week. At family gatherings, I've been alternately fascinated and repulsed watching them (mother and son) sit together on the couch with her rubbing his back, giving him a neck massage, son laying with his head in mom's lap while she give him a scalp massage, etc. I've seen the gesture where mom puts her hand flat on son's chest while standing and talking with him; I've seen him reach up and touch mom's earrings, like examining the gemstone or something. Eww! I love my little sis with all my heart, but she is totally creeping me out with this over-familiar way she has with my nephew. Can't wait to see what happens when he goes to college in a couple of years.

[JenniferJuniper]

But Lizzy is 16 now. That's still a little girl's outfit. Little shorts, cute smock, t-shirt, hair in two plaits. Little girl's demeanour too.

And anyway, what's she doing in shorts? I thought they were fundies.

I wonder if she chose the outfit or Mother Arndt did? It infantilises her in a very odd way.

In fairness, Mary was probably about 12 or 13 when the picture was taken. She's looking a little more age appropriate these days.

As far as I can tell, Rick and Cathy have created their own fundamentalist world and in that world, women are allowed to expose far more flesh than your typical fundie could ever tolerate. If Rick had 10 daughters first, things might have gone differently, but for the first 16 or 17 years, he didn't have to think about what a girl should or shouldn't wear.

Cathy also seems to have much more say than the typical helpmeet. She's clearly proud of her figure (heck, after 14 kids, she should be) and I don't think Rick could get her to cover up if he wanted her to. She may let Rick think he's running the show, but she's the parent with the stronger personality and she's got those boys absolutely worshipping her in what appears to be a not-so-healthy fashion.

I can't figure these people out at all, but I think Mommy is the primary driving force behind most of the dynamics.

[Widget]

I had an Arndt sighting at Walmart and I thought they seemed crazier than a typical fundie. This is an amazing level of WTF!

Thank you Jesus Google for bringing me here.

[nokidsmom]

@ Artemis, I realized after I posted how that might be taken. Was not my thinking at the time.

[Artemis]

@ Artemis, I realized after I posted how that might be taken. Was not my thinking at the time.

I know hun, don't worry. I'm the one with the dirty mind, not you.

[laura oz]

I had an Arndt sighting at Walmart and I thought they seemed crazier than a typical fundie. This is an amazing level of WTF!

Thank you Jesus Google for bringing me here.

So what was it like seeing the exhibits outside of the zoo? I just got introduced to this clusterf**k and am morbidly fascinated.

[JesusFightClub]

Laura Oz, you can say fuck here. I do it all the time ;)

Imagining a terrifying Stepford vibe with these strange man-children and Wizzy, who appears to be neither fish, flesh nor fowl in the growing up stakes... :?

[laura oz]

Laura Oz, you can say fuck here. I do it all the time ;)

Imagining a terrifying Stepford vibe with these strange man-children and Wizzy, who appears to be neither fish, flesh nor fowl in the growing up stakes... :?

:D :D :D :D Thanks, you have tickled my former- fundamental-heathen heart. Hard to break that blanket training.

[Widget]

So what was it like seeing the exhibits outside of the zoo? I just got introduced to this clusterf**k and am morbidly fascinated.

They never talked. They were just death staring everyone. Mama Arndt didn't even have to say anything to Wizzy to get her to do stuff, she just had to look in her direction and she did it automatically. It was the weirdest thing. It was like they had fundie telepathy.

Mama actually uses one of the fugly ruffle purses.

Wizzy could easily pass for 10 or 11 both in mannerisms and size.

I tried to snap a pic for you guys but they were in front of me in line and I couldn't figure out a non-suspicious way to do it.

[Witsec7]

Ooooh a close encounter of the first kind!! Kudo's for reporting the sighting. :clap:

[Aisling]

But Lizzy is 16 now. That's still a little girl's outfit. Little shorts, cute smock, t-shirt, hair in two plaits. Little girl's demeanour too.

And anyway, what's she doing in shorts? I thought they were fundies.

I wonder if she chose the outfit or Mother Arndt did? It infantilises her in a very odd way.

Of course. Mama Arndt does not want another adult woman, with stuff like cleavage and periods, taking her throne.

Like when queen bees drive out the princess, Wizzy will eaither have to remain at the stage of being an innocent, non threatening toy for the brothers to play with, or else if she dares grow up, Mama Arndt will cut her dead to retain her status in the family.

ETA: I mean, I've seen it in 'normal' families, where the mum gets uncomfortable/jealous that her teenage daughter is becoming a woman/'taking her place'/getting eyed up by people when once it was the mum. imagine how bad it will be for Wizzy considering her mum is the head of her own little adoring male fan club

[nokidsmom]

Of course. Mama Arndt does not want another adult woman, with stuff like cleavage and periods, taking her throne.

Like when queen bees drive out the princess, Wizzy will eaither have to remain at the stage of being an innocent, non threatening toy for the brothers to play with, or else if she dares grow up, Mama Arndt will cut her dead to retain her status in the family

Another reason why those men-children will never marry. Actually it would be the main reason why they won't, IMO. There's no way Mama will allow another woman to be no. 1 in any of her sons' lives.

A shame they carry on about marriage and finding the perfect woman yet right now there's no possiblity at all. Not with their Mom around. Maybe after she passes but she looks pretty darn healthy, so they may in pretty old age by then. Or they will consider themselves "emotionally widowed" if that makes any sense. I can see the altar to Mom decorated with stuffed penguins (shudder).

[freejoytoo]

Wizzy will never be allowed to grow up. Her brothers make disturbing comments about looking forward to accompanying her on her first date! Wtf?! I don't have any brothers but it's safe to say that's not normal. Most guys I know are fairly indifferent about who their sisters go out with.

Artemis, I will have to hear more about this family when we meet up!

[laura oz]

They never talked. They were just death staring everyone. Mama Arndt didn't even have to say anything to Wizzy to get her to do stuff, she just had to look in her direction and she did it automatically. It was the weirdest thing. It was like they had fundie telepathy.

Mama actually uses one of the fugly ruffle purses.

Wizzy could easily pass for 10 or 11 both in mannerisms and size.

I tried to snap a pic for you guys but they were in front of me in line and I couldn't figure out a non-suspicious way to do it.

Not to beat this thing to death, but how was Wizzy dressed? The not talking thing is just....odd. :?

[Widget]

Not to beat this thing to death, but how was Wizzy dressed? The not talking thing is just....odd. :?

Jeans, a hoodie, and some sort of floral top under that. Hair in braids.

[gustava]

You know what - I think Mother Arndt is a succubus. I think she's the one who won't let them go.

The only time I've ever seen anything like that photo was with a family I knew once. Female parent had a real emotional incest thing going on with son, on whom she was completely fixated, to the point where if her daughter was speaking to her and her son spoke - to anyone else, not necessarily to her - she would drop daughter dead focally, and switch focus instantly to son. I was visiting once and had to look away as she draped herself across his bed - on which he was also lying - in a manner I can only describe as sexual. (In case you're wondering what I was doing in his bedroom too, I'd been there to do tutoring, and she called me upstairs to pay me. I did not know I'd find the two of them lounging on his bed, eeewww.) It was extremely creepy, but this looks like it. Mother had a breakdown and went into serious depression when he left for uni: son has now moved away, and rarely goes back.

You look at Mother Arndt - the sexy dresses etc, and the cleavage showing and the general Queen Bee thing she has going on - and there has to be emotional incest with those boys. Which makes me worry about Elizabeth and Father Arndt.

I have long thought Mama Arndt as the impetus behind the man boys. I agree with you completely.

[wild little fox]

Wow. Momma Arndt must really be something to keep that many people in line!

This whole thing is like driving past a bad accident. I am equally horrified and intrigued.

[divadivine]

[ or else if she dares grow up, Mama Arndt will cut her dead to retain her status in the family.

OMG! I seriously think I pulled some ab muscles laughing at this- or at least I pulled the ones I hadn't already pulled doing the stupid "Burpee Challenge" I saw on Facebook. I can see Momma Arndt going all Bon Qui Qui on Mary Elizabeth "Girl, I told you I would CUT you!! I am the queen of this hive!!!" [oh, my abs... must stop laughing!!]

[Haligh the Liar]

One of the Arndt's weirder traditions is they have all their kids come into their bedroom every night for a prayer meeting. ALL the kids pile in and even hop on the same bed where their parents sleep and have sex.

In the photo below you can see one of the older manboys sitting next to mom Arndt (who is under the blanket). He has his arm around his mom. :shock:

The physical boundaries for these older guys seem to be non-existent. What adult man climbs into bed with his parents and drapes his arm around his mom as she lays in bed??

At first I thought this was less sketchy that it appeared, and that the son to the right of Mama Arndt had his legs hanging over the edge of the bed, then I realized that what I thought were his jean-clad knees were in actuality the legs and butt of a little boy leaning on the bed. The sketchiness returned full force at that moment.

Yes, I am going to go here- do you think there is any actual sexual incest? I can't imagine that the boys haven't been aroused/masturbated, etc, at their advanced ages, and if mom is the only woman in sight...

That said, I would love to study them sociologically. I live close enough to them that I want to make a pilgrimage to their softball tournament to see them in person, and also to flirt with any random Cardinals players who go for community service purposes.

Finally, I think I've recommended this before, but for a cinematic depiction of emotional incest and EXTREME isolation of kids, check out the brilliant and highly disturbing Greek movie Dogtooth.

[Vex]

I don't think they do masturbate.

For one, they're not emotionally men or even teenagers. Emotionally, sexually etc they are preteens at best.

Then, there's the religious stigma surrounding masturbation. If it's enough to stop a priest (who might also be a twenty-something virgin) it's probably enough to stop them. Some guys can have self control, after all.

And finally, they share bedrooms and I could totally see one of the other brothers tattling to score points with Jesus and the Queen Bee.

[Emme]

I have long thought Mama Arndt as the impetus behind the man boys. I agree with you completely.

I know people crack a lot of jokes about Jewish mothers being attached to their kids, but Mama Arndt blows them all out of the water! Weirdddddd. Also, Arndt sighting? Jealous/fascinated!

[JenniferJuniper]

I don't think they do masturbate.

For one, they're not emotionally men or even teenagers. Emotionally, sexually etc they are preteens at best.

Then, there's the religious stigma surrounding masturbation. If it's enough to stop a priest (who might also be a twenty-something virgin) it's probably enough to stop them. Some guys can have self control, after all.

Physically, however, they are sexually mature which means they don't have self-control over ejaculation when they are asleep. For most males, the semen is going to be released one way or the other and even if they aren't having porn-level fantasies, I don't see how Mommy could keep up with the laundry. Although maybe she has the boys rotate that chore as part of the shame, fear, and guilt trips she uses on them.

As for priests, all four of the ones I knew in my childhood parish were later caught or admitted to sexual activity. One molested boys, another had sexual relationships with teenaged girls, one was caught in a park soliciting sex from an undercover police officer (he was nearly 80 at the time) and another admitted to having a long-term girlfriend.

Can sexuality be totally ignored or repressed? For a time, I'm sure it can be and maybe there are a few guys who can do it forever. But I really have trouble believing that even Mommy Arndt could control the normal biology of all 13 sons.

[lilith]

I don't think they do masturbate.

For one, they're not emotionally men or even teenagers. Emotionally, sexually etc they are preteens at best.

Then, there's the religious stigma surrounding masturbation. If it's enough to stop a priest (who might also be a twenty-something virgin) it's probably enough to stop them. Some guys can have self control, after all.

And finally, they share bedrooms and I could totally see one of the other brothers tattling to score points with Jesus and the Queen Bee.

They must. Even if they are emotionally stunted, they are very fit young men in their sexual prime. Brainwashing and infantilising can't entirely trump biology, surely. I'm sure they do it quietly in bed while their brothers sleep or in the shower. And if the sheets are stained, well, nocturnal emissions must happen very regularly in that home anyway. I don't envy the Ardnt on laundry duty.

It must be odd for Daddy Ardnt to be living surrounded by other men but to be the only one of them to have sexual and adult privileges. Maybe that's part of it, maybe he is reluctant to cede alpha male status within their very sheltered group by allowing one of his sons to marry and become his equal.

I've said it before, but it bears repeating - I worry about Mary Elizabeth. She's living surrounded by sexually frustrated young men, young men who don't have contact with any other young women. It wouldn't take much for one or more of her brothers to develop an unhealthy obsession with her, and its possible she wouldn't feel able to tell her family, and

she is completely isolated from the rest of the world. That family dynamic is so

Incredibly unhealthy, and Jesus and naivety won't necessarily save them from tragic consequences.

[lilith]

Oops, cross posted with Jennifer Juniper - our minds went to very similar places.