Child Collectors Extraordinaire

[France Nolan]

I knew the Silcock family sounded familiar. Lo and behold, I watched them on Nanny 911.

[lilwriter85]

I remember reading in another article that other parents in her school district felt like she was monopolizing the special ed resources. One parents of a special needs kid said she had to move her kid to a different school because the Belles-Silcock boys were taking up so many resources.

Also, just found this article about one of the older boys, Val:

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20 ... /121209960

He was adopted from Russia at age 12. Clearly he is very grateful, but does mention that being in such a large family had some disadvantages.

Thanks for posting that article. It was very interesting and I'm happy Val is doing well. I wondered a lot about the disadvantages that the Belles-Silcock family faced. In the documentary about Barry, I remembered one of the rooms looked crowded. I remember an article that detailed a day in their lives and it was pretty packed. On the old site, they used to mentioned when some of the boys would move out. I remember a couple of wheelchair bound boys moved into an apartment together and had caregivers help them out.

[OkToBeTakei]

This is really powerful and very true.

Most of these child collectors will never do anything to try to change the fundamental problems in Russia and/or in Russian orphanages that lead to these children being disgarded like trash. They're usually also the ones who fight against social services programs in the U.S. that would make it easier for more people to adopt from other countries. There are a lot of people in the U.S. who would love to adopt but don't feel they'd be able to because of monetary issues- especially getting reasonably priced medical care for their child's special needs, affording physical/developmental/occupational/whatever therapies and counseling, time off work for bonding and medical/therapy/counseling appointments, and general safety nets for when the child is older (especially if their special need makes it likely they'll never be able to live independently)

The worst thing is it would probably be easy for me. The other easy thing would be the amount of support I WOULD receive via our social services, all the things you mentioned would be free for me.

But it would not be right. For me.

Do they even think or care about the future problems? Is the mentality just rescue? The couple we are talking about are in their 50's they seem to have a good financial set up. But they adopted a 2 yr old. I think that, I do not get that. Who gets the emotional, financial responsibility for them IF the worst should happen?

Are the birth kids as invested as the parents? Will they be willing to do all that Valsa mentioned?

One little adopted sibling, yes. Two ok. How many will be left to others.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

The Russia/US adoption thing is a political ploy, not helped by a case a year or two ago where a woman returned a child because she couldn't deal with the child's issues.

I was really surprised that this case wasn't mentioned in all the coverage of "oh no, Russia is cutting off adoptions from the US!" coverage I was hearing on NPR last week. I mean, seems to me that story HAS to be figuring into the conversation at least in Russia, even if not officially part of any negotiations. It was huge news when it happened.

I would also point out that neither China or Russia are impoverished countries who lack the financial resources to care for orphaned children.

Apparently domestic adoption (including of girls) is up in China since the Sichuan earthquake.

[heidi]

I'm an adoptee and my parents changed my name at the time of my adoption. My birth name (both first and middle) became my middle name. Granted, I was adopted at six months so I don't know how I would have felt had I been older, but I have never been bothered by the name change. For me the new name is symbolic of entering into my (new) family. As a teenager I considered going by my New Name + Original Birth Name as my first name, but decided against it. It was too much for people to say! I like my name (first and both of my middle names) and I'm fine that my parents changed it at the time of my adoption.

Like I said, I don't know if I would have felt differently if I had been older when I was adopted. If my husband and I ever adopt, and we adopted a baby I would probably do the same (first name from us, middle name(s) from birth parents) and if we adopted an older child I would choose a new name, but offer it to them--change it only if they wanted. To me, naming is a symbolic part of entering the family.

[valsa]

I think the name change thing is very different between infants and older children. With older children, you're leaving behind everything you know (and you do have concrete memories as an older adoptee that an infant doesn't) and your birth name may be the only thing you still have from your old life.

Besides, almost all adoptees have their last name changed, so it's not like you don't get at least one new name to signify entry into a new family.

[BlueChair]

Any adoption worker or therapist worth their salt would never recommend moving a child from one bad situation (an orphanage) to another bad situation (a home where their emotional needs cannot be met and the time and care necessary for appropriate attachments to form is unavailable). This isn't saving the child from the initial trauma. It is traumatizing them twice.

[PennySycamore]

My granddaughter, adopted from China, at the age of 2 and quarter had a nanny funded by the Half the Sky Foundation. The director of her orphanage was raised there. He was surrendered to the orphanage because he has fused fingers on one hand. My daughter and son-in-law were impressed that he was trying to give the kids there a better life.

Btw, my granddaughter's middle name is her Chinese name and my daughter and her husband use that a lot as do the rest of us, her American family. She does have a Western first name though.

[adayinthelife]

Mockingbird (The quote string's getting too long), I agree with you, but here's where I'm coming from. Just before Christmas I read the blog of a family who were about to adopt a child who was in a horrendous state from physical and emotional neglact, and who is months away from being transferred to an adult institution. In their blog they described using Pearl techniques on their child who has Down syndrome. They have adopted once before, a nine year old who also has Downs and was the weight of my children at birth. They changed her name to that of a child the mother had seen in a heartbreaking video some years earlier. There are also details of the incredible neglect of the children in the orphanage. Neglect so bad there was a huge scandal, front page papers, many children needing to be taken to hospital for refeeding.

Now, the thing is that they include full identifying information on their blog, so if I could stop that next adoption by calling CPS. I feel personally responsible for the choice between letting that boy die in an institution or be sent to an abusive home, because I have chosen the abusive home for him. So it's feeling more immediate and real for me at the moment, it's hard to think in terms of staffing numbers, small group care, policy change, etc. It's really more a question of if I've done the right thing by that boy.

:shock: I didn't even realize that family was using Pearl methods (I haven't read a lot of the earlier entries, though).

[August]

Except perhaps if you stopped the abusive home from adopting him, he'd be adopted by a non-abusive home instead. Abusers aren't the only ones adopting children, you know.

ETA: I'd also like to point out that if you know these people are using the Pearls' method of child training, it's more or less choosing between letting a child die in an orphanage from neglect or dying in a family setting from abuse.

In this particular adoption it's down to the line whether they will get their adoption through before he ages out, and he's been on a child-shopping website for a long time - years, IIRC. There is no one else, it's this or an adult mental institution.

Yes, the parents are abusive and he'll be beaten. But. He'll have human interaction, he'll have adequate amounts of solid food. He'll get physical therapy, and speech therapy. People will speak to him and smile at him. At the moment he's probably not getting more interaction than a minute twice a day to suck down his bottle. That was the situation with the nine year old they last adopted. And I think beatings interspersed with smiles and talking and food and physical therapy to loosen his joints up is better than that.

[valsa]

Yes, the parents are abusive and he'll be beaten. But.

And you and I suddenly have nothing more to discuss with each other.

[B5SnowDog]

Yes, the parents are abusive and he'll be beaten. But. He'll have human interaction, he'll have adequate amounts of solid food. He'll get physical therapy, and speech therapy. People will speak to him and smile at him. At the moment he's probably not getting more interaction than a minute twice a day to suck down his bottle. That was the situation with the nine year old they last adopted. And I think beatings interspersed with smiles and talking and food and physical therapy to loosen his joints up is better than that.

This is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard someone say. Did you practice that in the mirror or are you just that good?

[StarrieEyedKat]

In this particular adoption it's down to the line whether they will get their adoption through before he ages out, and he's been on a child-shopping website for a long time - years, IIRC. There is no one else, it's this or an adult mental institution.

Yes, the parents are abusive and he'll be beaten. But. He'll have human interaction, he'll have adequate amounts of solid food. He'll get physical therapy, and speech therapy. People will speak to him and smile at him. At the moment he's probably not getting more interaction than a minute twice a day to suck down his bottle. That was the situation with the nine year old they last adopted. And I think beatings interspersed with smiles and talking and food and physical therapy to loosen his joints up is better than that.

It's a joke, right? One can't possibly actually...believe this? Right? RIGHT?!

[YPestis]

I often feel conflicted regarding fundies adopting kids from third world orphanages. On one hand, adopting them into a developed world family would open up opportunities in ways living as an orphan would never provide. On the other hand, depending on the fundie-ness of the family, the child may experience a different type of abuse and neglect. What if a family like the Maxwells adopted a child from a Chinese orphan (I'm aware that the Maxwells would never do that but for the sake of argument...). Is it better that the child languish in those orphanages, deprived of family and condemned to a certain quality of life? I'm not sure.

I've heard of families adopting multiple children and I don't feel it's bad necessarily as long as there's enough time for adjustment and enough hands to prevent neglect. Sure, it's great if an orphan was adopted by highly educated, nonfundie, financially comfortable parents with a comfortable home and ability to speak the language. However, you don't need to have close to that ideal situation to adopt and elevate that child out of the poverty they almost certainly live in.

I am only familiar with Chinese orphanages, but there, it is a more institutional set up. There's no foster care or "group home" as far as I know. Children going from there to a large family in the US where would still win out. They would still have a family with parents and certainly access to far better medical care and education than if they stayed at the orphanage. Job opportunities would be nonexistent without the support of families in China (and I'm sure in other countries). Just taking the child out of the third world where many international adoptions occur offers that child a better chance. Putting that child into a large family, as long as there is no neglect or abuse, is probably still a better outcome than letting them wait it out in the orphanage. Despite the long wait list of adoptive parents, most children will never be adopted. They are usually too old, or gave health problems, or are unlucky enough to never get seen by foreign adoption agencies. To me, if a child gets the chance to be adopted by US parents, I think they should count their blessings. Most orphans in those places, no matter how loving and well funded, will age out of the system and enter the world with nothing.

As for the name change thing. I'm indifferent to that as long as the child is very young. Older children, I think, should have the option of keeping it. I know a lot of immigrant children take American names to help assimilate/fit in. However, adoptive children are different. They are taken to a new place without the stability of family. Some may want to retain their name to keep their sense of identity. Others may be only too eager to dispose of it.

FWIW, I think most adoptive parents are wonderful and are incredibly selfless. My parents have known numerous American families of adopted Chinese daughters through their local Chinese club. My mother often speak of the "lucky girls" who are given such loving, and (typically) well off homes to live in. "It's like being sent to Heaven!" is what she says. I'm willing to say that adoptees are lucky even if they enter a large family, or a conservative family (within reason). That said, it seems tragic if a Chinese girl, abandoned due to patriarch, would end up in families whose very beliefs is what leads to their abandonment in poorer nations.

[dairyfreelife]

:shock: I didn't even realize that family was using Pearl methods (I haven't read a lot of the earlier entries, though).

Who is this blogger?

[zipper]

I don't know how to do the link thingy :) but I got lost this morning after following the topic earlier in this thread and ended up in the Katie story parts for over an hour. She's terrifying because unlike so many people written about here she's passing as normal in the daily world. Only an insane person would think with a house falling down around them and the stacked boys beds they need two high needs kids that will be so easy based on 6 months of experience.

The Blessing of Verity

[JesusFightClub]

I've been reading this thread. I went to that link about the orphanage also. I can understand the strong feelings for sure.

But a child can choose to leave a shitty fundie family. Would they have that choice if left where they were? I am in two minds as to how damaging either upbringing would be. Alive, healthy and an ability to make the choice makes me think one way.

I absolutely agree with the posters who say rather than 'collect' do something which helps the initial problem. But I think the mentality of wanting to be seen as doing something good ie. RESCUE rather than work quietly to solve the fundamental issue will not be easily solved.

I really do not get the collect thing. I would LOVE to adopt. I do not think I have what it takes. That is only thinking about one. Maybe I think about it too much and should just do 4 at once BA-Ching!

QFT. All you said totally sums up my feelings.

I talked my idea about adoption over with a few people and reluctantly came to the conclusion that you did about yourself - I'm not suitable. Not everyone is. I have too much of a rambly and chaotic lifestyle where these kids need order and stability. My flat's not big enough. I don't have enough patience - Small has PTSD, as do I to a far lesser extent, and we can annoy the hell out of each other. I don't know if I could be helpful to kids with RAD or worse if it was a living situation.

I thought about perhaps working in some sort of scheme with kids rather than adoption. I can teach literacy, and I'm chill about extreme behaviours (believe me I've seen them). Haven't decided yet, it'll be a long term plan.

But it's such a big decision I don't know how to make it. It wouldn't be this year and probably not next either. So I don't understand how people can pick up children like loyalty card points. Children are people!

[SoybeanQueen]

We adopted three kids at one time - siblings - and it is hard work to expand a family by that many at once, particularly when special needs are involved. It's been more than 2 years since they arrived in our home, and I think it would be completely nuts to even discuss adopting again at this point. Children who have traumatic pasts need lots of time to heal. Parents of these kids need lots of time to learn about the children, to develop a bond with them, and to properly assess their needs, which can take months, if not years. Kids can't really begin to heal until you actually know which issues to seek therapists for, or which medications to try, or what specialist to see. It all takes time, and as someone who has done it, and is still doing it, I think I'm qualified to say it shouldn't be rushed.

Our children have new names. Yes, they were old enough to know their names when they came to us. It wasn't something we planned to do. Unfortunately, some of the adults from their past could be dangerous to them. It's easier to protect them if they aren't using their original names. While I don't think name changes are something to be done hastily, I believe there are good reasons sometimes. Our kids chose their own names.

Making older boys get circumcised post-adoption is awful, IMO. If all of the parts are in working order, what the heck is the point of cutting stuff off?

[RosyDaisy]

Yes, the parents are abusive and he'll be beaten. But. He'll have human interaction, he'll have adequate amounts of solid food. He'll get physical therapy, and speech therapy. People will speak to him and smile at him. At the moment he's probably not getting more interaction than a minute twice a day to suck down his bottle. That was the situation with the nine year old they last adopted. And I think beatings interspersed with smiles and talking and food and physical therapy to loosen his joints up is better than that.

Wow. You just sentenced a child to a life of abuse. There is no justification for that, at least based on what you've posted so far, and you're delusional if you think there is. How do you sleep at night?

[Effie]

Any adoption worker or therapist worth their salt would never recommend moving a child from one bad situation (an orphanage) to another bad situation (a home where their emotional needs cannot be met and the time and care necessary for appropriate attachments to form is unavailable). This isn't saving the child from the initial trauma. It is traumatizing them twice.

Exactly! What's the point of exchanging one kind of misery (hell) for another? I would rather waste away at an orphanage than go through a life of abuse and horror.

[Patsy]

Fuck sake. The Verity bloggers use Pearl techniques? I endorsed them on a previous thread. Where do they talk about Pearl discipline? I don't want to believe.

[Ramona]

This is the sort of thing that has me saying "help this child, right here, right now" versus the whole 'working to change the social whatevers' in other countries... yes, the latter is needed - but kids are dying.

http://www.only1mom.com/2012/02/help-pr ... phans.html

http://carryyourlight.blogspot.ca/p/ple ... age_1.html

I don't know these bloggers, they're just hits that came up when I googled the specific orphanage mentioned earlier in the thread.

This just kills me.

Look at the photos of the kids, read the descriptions of what's happened to them and how they live.. (if you can call that living)

I don't even know..

How does this happen? People work there.. men & women, some must be parents themselves?

:(

edited to add second link

[meda]

But that's the thing, you "save" a child, and/or apparently watch a child go to an abusive fundie home, and it makes YOU feel better and that's super spiffy because its a "heart" thing. But this issue really isn't about your feelings. Many thousands of children will die unless people do the hard, unglamorous, un-feel good work of changing "the social whatevers....." that you are so dismissive of.

You are Canadian right? You have First Nations children in your own country growing up in conditions not dissimilar to Russian orphanages. Children who can only get medical care unless they are taken from families and communities. Why don't you do something about those "social whatevers" before lecturing us about your heart for Russian orphans.

[formergothardite]

Kids are going to keep dying if people just stick to the "help this child, right here, right now, even if it means sending them to be abused in America" mentality.

[Ramona]

But that's the thing, you "save" a child, and/or apparently watch a child go to an abusive fundie home, and it makes YOU feel better and that's super spiffy because its a "heart" thing. But this issue really isn't about your feelings. Many thousands of children will die unless people do the hard, unglamorous, un-feel good work of changing "the social whatevers....." that you are so dismissive of.

You are Canadian right? You have First Nations children in your own country growing up in conditions not dissimilar to Russian orphanages. Children who can only get medical care unless they are taken from families and communities. Why don't you do something about those "social whatevers" before lecturing us about your heart for Russian orphans.

Who's "lecturing"? I'm just talking.

I have NEVER said I wanted ANY child to go to an abusive home.

I don't want to "make (me) feel better" ~ please don't stick words in my mouth.

You also have no idea what I do in my own time ~ I'm well aware of the conditions in some of the First Nations communities and I work with some others here to improve things at one close to us, with a particular focus on the youth.

That doesn't change the fact that when I started googling the orphanage that was mentioned, I was shocked and heartbroken at what I saw and I would never ever want a child to live (die) in those conditions.

just for the record - i don't always know the words i want.. so when i say "whatevers" it's because i didn't know if the right word was "policies" or "conditions" or something else entirely. that's all.. it's not meant to be rude or something. it's just me without the correct terminology :)