OK, OK...time to delurk...Jeubs, Maxwells, and more

[emmiedahl]

Training a child to act kind, sweet and hardworking does not mean that they are a kind, sweet or hardworking person. They have been trained to act a certain way when adults are present or they will be physically hurt. When the adults are removed or when the children are grown-ups no longer under their control, they probably turn into assholes.

The great majority of prisoners were physically punished, a fact established by numerous studies. Michael Pearl teaches that they are criminals because of a lack of training. He is lying, flat out lying. They got their beatings and developed a lack of morality and a lack of respect for others from those experiences. Not in spite of them; because of them. You always hear, "He was the sweetest child, he's the nicest guy, I can't believe he did this" about people who commit murders.

My kids are kind, sweet and hardworking because they have been taught and learned and internalized those values. It takes longer, for instance my 2 year olds are not generally happy to pick up their toys.

[Soulhuntress]

Training a child to act kind, sweet and hardworking does not mean that they are a kind, sweet or hardworking person. They have been trained to act a certain way when adults are present or they will be physically hurt. When the adults are removed or when the children are grown-ups no longer under their control, they probably turn into assholes.

The great majority of prisoners were physically punished, a fact established by numerous studies. Michael Pearl teaches that they are criminals because of a lack of training. He is lying, flat out lying. They got their beatings and developed a lack of morality and a lack of respect for others from those experiences. Not in spite of them; because of them. You always hear, "He was the sweetest child, he's the nicest guy, I can't believe he did this" about people who commit murders.

My kids are kind, sweet and hardworking because they have been taught and learned and internalized those values. It takes longer, for instance my 2 year olds are not generally happy to pick up their toys.

Please cite studies. And whether they stated prisoner were abused or had a spanking or three? Perspective is your friend. And not all abused children grow up to be convicts. You might want to rethink that one. I know of four that did grow up successfully (a little dysfunctional but still) 3/4 graduated from college 1/4 was killed in the war (WW2) and all their kids attended and graduated from college.

[emmiedahl]

Yes, perspective is my friend, thank you, and I will rethink it when a single scientific study finds that spanking is effective and nondamaging.

D E G R E E O F P H Y S I C A L P U N I S H M E N T

Never Rare Moderate Severe Extreme

Violent inmates

at San Quentin 0 0 0 0 100%

Juvenile

Delinquents 0 2% 3% 31% 64%

High School

drop-outs 0 7% 23% 69% 0

College

freshmen 2% 23% 40% 33% 0

Professionals 5% 40% 36% 17% 0

Taking part in this survey were: 200 psychologists who filled out anonymous questionnaires, 372 college students at the University of California, Davis and California State University at Fresno, 52 slow track underachievers at Richmond High School. Delinquents were interviewed by Dr. Ralph Welsh in Bridgeport, Connecticut and by Dr. Alan Button in Fresno, California. Prisoner information was by courtesy of Hobart Banks, M.S.W., counselor of difficult prisoners at San Quentin Penitentiary, San Quentin, California.

ALSO :

One meta-analysis of studies performed on children found that even mild corporal punishment was damaging (Larzelere and Kuhn 2005).

Spanked children more likely than nonspanked to have aggressive and criminal behavior (Cohen 1996).

Another study found that found that physical discipline is linked in a variety of cultures and nation with increases in aggression and anxiety in children(Lansford et al 2005).

A study found that it raises the chances of sexual deviancy. http://health.usnews.com/usnews/health/ ... havior.htm

Spanking is linked by numerous APA studies to violent behavior and poor outcomes. http://www.apa.org/about/governance/cou ... hment.aspx

Spanking has been found to lower intelligence. http://www.suite101.com/content/spankin ... ce-a156068

Children who were spanked are more likely to have anxiety and psychiatric problems as adults. http://www.cmaj.ca/content/161/7/805.long

eta: sorry, that graph did not copy and paste well.

[xDreamerx]

I don't think studies are really required, except perhaps to qualify the assertion of violence leading to criminal behaviour specifically. But there is the cycle of violence, which is a long standing model. Violence begats violence. It might not become criminal, but it still continues. (Caveat: Not in every single instance, but in a lot cases).

[emmiedahl]

Also, I didn't say that all abused children or all spanked children become criminals. I was spanked, I'm fine. It doesn't make it ideal. My mother has stated that I am a better parent than she was and that she is happy about this. There is a lot that she wishes she could undo about how she parented us, but she loved us and did the best she could at the time. Every parent does, I get that.

[Soulhuntress]

Also, I didn't say that all abused children or all spanked children become criminals. I was spanked, I'm fine. It doesn't make it ideal. My mother has stated that I am a better parent than she was and that she is happy about this. There is a lot that she wishes she could undo about how she parented us, but she loved us and did the best she could at the time. Every parent does, I get that.

The great majority of prisoners were physically punished, a fact established by numerous studies. Michael Pearl teaches that they are criminals because of a lack of training. He is lying, flat out lying. They got their beatings and developed a lack of morality and a lack of respect for others from those experiences. Not in spite of them; because of them. You always hear, "He was the sweetest child, he's the nicest guy, I can't believe he did this" about people who commit murders.

I did take that as an all statement and spanking and beatings are two very different animals (and this is a sore point for me). I do think there is one thing the studies are not taking into account: emotional abuse within the family of origin or community. I would not spank a kid: I was raised by an abused foster kid (mom) and do not have the life skills to corporally discipline a child (nor would I want to do so). Emotional abuse OTOH is a trigger for me and it occurs EVERYWHERE irregardless of religion, class, race or creed. And emotional abuse combined with a lack of a "safe person" or "mentor" may be the thing that sends someone down a criminal path (I do NOT believe in "hug a thug" but DO believe that there needs to be an awareness of kids at risk. It makes all the difference in the world to have a safe person or someone to look up to (I have a couple ladies who would never wear the Titus 2 label but who lived it unconsciously that made the difference). :mrgreen:

[Alecto]

So, this might be slightly off topic, but I wanted to specifically address Lalabee's concerns about someone finding out her ISP, ect.

1. There are exactly 3 people who can see your IP address, and all three of us have red usernames: Austin, Burris and myself. None of us will give out your IP address to anyone without a court order.

2. You have the option to hide your email address in your profile. Go to the User Control Panel ->Board Preferences and select "No" on the "Users Can Contact Me By Email"

While that won't stop an asshat from trying to figure out who you are, hiding your email address will help protect you.

[deelaem]

I did take that as an all statement and spanking and beatings are two very different animals (and this is a sore point for me). I do think there is one thing the studies are not taking into account: emotional abuse within the family of origin or community. I would not spank a kid: I was raised by an abused foster kid (mom) and do not have the life skills to corporally discipline a child (nor would I want to do so). Emotional abuse OTOH is a trigger for me and it occurs EVERYWHERE irregardless of religion, class, race or creed. And emotional abuse combined with a lack of a "safe person" or "mentor" may be the thing that sends someone down a criminal path (I do NOT believe in "hug a thug" but DO believe that there needs to be an awareness of kids at risk. It makes all the difference in the world to have a safe person or someone to look up to (I have a couple ladies who would never wear the Titus 2 label but who lived it unconsciously that made the difference). :mrgreen:

The difference between spanking and beating is simply a matter of degree. It's still physical punishment, it hurts kids, and it sets up the mindset that it's ok for big people to hurt little people. How much it hurts shouldn't be the barometer for whether or not you should practice physical punishment. I get so tired of the "I was spanked and I turned out ok" line. My parents neglected me and I turned out ok, does that mean it was right for my parents to do that?

There are many, many healthy and non-violent ways to be an effective parent. In my opinion, spanking is just power trip that some people seem to need.

[HoneyBunny]

I could never beat a child. I could never hurt a child, other than one smack on a diapered or pull-up'd bottom to get someone's attention as a very last resort. I don't have children, so I have never spanked a child. I am a preschool teacher and I can promise you that kids who are spanked don't behave better than those that aren't. Every kid can have a bad day. We see it every day, yesterday's angel is today's problem.

I was spanked. I'm 51 years old...we pretty much ALL were in the 1960s. It was traumatic (at the time), and I wish my parents hadn't done it. But I can't say it's affected my life today. What HAS affected me is the emotional abuse that was heaped on me. The living in constant fear of the next explosion. Having a mother who never, ever once stood up for me even when she knew I was innocent.

Parenting is scary business. There are so many ways to mess up a life. I always say, "It takes a license to catch a fish, but anyone can be a parent". There's something screwy about that.

[emmiedahl]

A lot of parents have been convinced by other people that spanking is necessary to raise better children, and that it is in the long run better for them. This is why I think it is important for educated people to speak out about it. It's not an opinion; there are studies about how harsh parenting hurts children.

[Guest Anonymous]

The Maxwells seemed so...well...perfect! They floated through life on their schedules and they didn't seem to have any real problems. Hey, I was a SAHM with four children...maybe I was desperate?

I read back over the Maxwell corners and blog archives recently and was horrified by so many of the posts. Terri spoke frankly about crippling depression and how she took this out on the kids. Steve talked of his harshness and impatience and how he gave the lids 'consequences', which we strongly suspect to be physical punishment, for small things that annoyed him, such as bad table manners. They talked about how Teri had to give up Pepsi because she enjoyed it too much, and how the kids were allowed no close friends outside the family.

In this context, how did you see them as having 'floated through life...[with no] real problems"? Which bits of their lifestyle were attractive?

[Guest Anonymous]

-I was dresses only, tried to grow my hair long, toyed with being quiverfull, contemplated homebirth, tried to start a homechurch, and was as legalistic as the day is long. :(

-This was my thought pattern with the Pearls: You mean I do whatever you say and I'll have perfect children? People will think I'm a fantastic mother? Switch your kids when they're babies and you'll never have rebellious teenagers? I'm in! I know, I know...

Way back when, I thought the Pearls were the greatest thing since sliced bread. The fear mongering was so damaging. "If you don't spank your child the first time he tells a lie, he'll be a drunken, drug addicted humanist by age 18" (paraphrased, of course) Over and over and over I heard that if I didn't act NOW, I was setting my children and myself up for a lifetime of misery.

.....The pressure is *enormous*. Thankfully, I was able to one day realize the ridiculousness of it and walk away.

I have four children: 16, 14, 11 and 9. Did I switch my babies? I spanked each of them on the hand for various offenses and switched their thighs (never younger than a year old) about 4 or 5 times each. Did I do it a lot, consistently? No. Did I do it enough so that I feel guilt? Yes. :(

I would go through Pearl phases. Read their materials, listen to their tapes, etc. They seemed to contradict themselves repeatedly, but I just thought it was me not understanding the situation correctly. We would have a 'boot camp'....you're all familiar with "Raising Godly Tomatoes", right? So I'd Pearlize for a few weeks, then just gradually loosen up, and a several months later do it all over again.

Why did I believe them? To me that is an outrageous question, but I have to remember you have had a different life experience then me.

I'm really interested in what your life experience was before you became a fundie, and what it was that one day caused you to walk away.

[Guest Anonymous]

I have four children: 16, 14, 11 and 9. Did I switch my babies? I spanked each of them on the hand for various offenses and switched their thighs (never younger than a year old) about 4 or 5 times each. Did I do it a lot, consistently? No. Did I do it enough so that I feel guilt? Yes. :(

I would go through Pearl phases. Read their materials, listen to their tapes, etc. They seemed to contradict themselves repeatedly, but I just thought it was me not understanding the situation correctly. We would have a 'boot camp'....you're all familiar with "Raising Godly Tomatoes", right? So I'd Pearlize for a few weeks, then just gradually loosen up, and a several months later do it all over again.

Why did I believe them? To me that is an outrageous question, but I have to remember you have had a different life experience then me.

This is a one year old. What 'life experience' could possibly lead people to believe it is OK to switch a baby like this on their thigh?

[formergothardite]

Yeah, I not asking to shame you, but I think it really will help stop the harm if we can learn what "life exeriences" cause people to spank their babies. And I do consider a one year old still a baby. I'm very glad that you have escaped such a harmful lifestyle.

[Witsec1]

You can't just throw out "I knew the J*ubs personally" and then run away. Too cruel!

[Austin]

Wow. I've been out of the house most of the day. Apologies if my answers haven't been complete enough. You have to remember I was involved in this culture about 11 years. It's pretty hard to sum up 11 YEARS in a few posts.

The Pearls. I think they are evil, misguided, strange, abusive people. I have no respect for them and am so saddened by what they've done to homeschooling families.

I have four children: 16, 14, 11 and 9. Did I switch my babies? I spanked each of them on the hand for various offenses and switched their thighs (never younger than a year old) about 4 or 5 times each. Did I do it a lot, consistently? No. Did I do it enough so that I feel guilt? Yes. :(

I would go through Pearl phases. Read their materials, listen to their tapes, etc. They seemed to contradict themselves repeatedly, but I just thought it was me not understanding the situation correctly. We would have a 'boot camp'....you're all familiar with "Raising Godly Tomatoes", right? So I'd Pearlize for a few weeks, then just gradually loosen up, and a several months later do it all over again.

Why did I believe them? To me that is an outrageous question, but I have to remember you have had a different life experience then me. Everyone in my community who followed them had kind, sweet, fun hardworking children who were very polite and well mannered. Everyone in my community who belonged to La Leache League or openly embraced attachment parenting had kids who were fussy, whining, mean, and well...bratty. At the time, this further proved to me I was on the right path.

I can't tell you the wonderful relationship I have with my children now. I'm so relieved I got out when I did.

I hope I've answered some questions. Time to make supper.

Back later.

I figured this was the case, because one could hardly be a Pearl follower and not hit their kids. I am very glad you saw how evil and misguided the Pearls are and got away from that. I believe that you do feel guilty for hitting your children, and that's probably a hard thing to fess up to on a message board, so I give you kudos for 1) acknowledging that it was wrong, and 2) being honest about it. I don't care to beat you up over it, as it's in the past and all you can do is do better from that point forward, which it sounds like you have. I am glad you have a good relationship with your children. I hope that you have expressly and sincerely apologized to them (I have apologized to my grown/nearly grown children for my failings as their mother, so again, not saying that to be mean).

But like a lot of FJers, and again, not in the spirit of taking a whack at you, I am very interested to know how your natural maternal protective instinct was able to be overridden, which is what always puzzles me about the pearl-lites. I understand the religious aspect (I grew up fundie-lite and am very well acquainted with a lot of the thinking), but you referred to believing that the Pearl way was the only way to "grow" nice, obedient children and that sounds very important to you (at that time). How do you look back at that now? Do you realize that the Pearl notions about how children should behave, from a developmental point of view, are wildly unreasonable (to put it mildly)? What do you think of children who were not raised in this way - do you still consider them to be overall bratty, whiney, and ill-behaved? What would you say to young parents considering the Pearl methods?

[Lalabee]

Someone here accused me of running away....???? I've posted 3 or 4 times.

A poster had asked more about Chris and Alicia. I'm sure you won't believe this, but when we were friends with the J*ubs, Chris was a very nice person. He was super hospitable, laid back, and a very attentive father. IMHO, however, as they had more and more children, got further involved in politics, and started their website/TV specials/books there has been a change. I dont' know if it's a power trip or what. I can't believe they are c-o-n-s-t-a-n-t-l-y hawking their wares and the books are not good. At all. Love in the House is OK...has a few good parts. But the rest? And Wendy's diet book? Don't even get me started.

To understand the whole Alicia episode you have to know the context. (And I'm being very careful here. I am still friends with Alicia and I very much want to respect her. I don't know how much of the story she is comfortable telling.)

Wendy had Alicia when she was 15. She got married to Chris several years later...she was maybe 21?But Chris is two years younger than Wendy. So Chris and Alicia are only 13 YEARS APART. Imagine your father only being 13 years older than you! So he's thrown into parenthood at a very young age with not one, but two daughters who aren't his biologically and there are 13 and 15 years difference between them. That would be difficult under the best of circumstances. I always felt this was an awkward and uncomfortable dynamic.

Wendy contacted me when they felt Alicia was rebelling. I don't recall her exact age. Someone asked if she was 18 or not. I don't remember. She was around that age and the whole episode lasted almost two years I believe. Again, Alicia has a very happy and stable life now and I would never purposely hurt her. I will say she started lying to her parents about where she was and who she was with. Then she started partaking in activities that went against her family's values. Nothing was stated specfically, but it general it seemed to be partying and relationships with guys. This went on for a long time and Chris and Wendy didn't even know. Then a friend of Wendy's contacted Wendy and filled her in. It was devastating. Again, keep in mind that if Alicia was 18, Chris was only 31. This doesn't excuse his behavior, but most 31 year olds have just gotten their life together and know nothing about how to handle a rebellious, but very pretty teenager.

As they say in their book they enlisted the help of friends and tried to get things under control and it backfired. I was in contact with Wendy and told her how I had done similiar things when in High School and my parents, although they were mortified, continued to love me and I was always welcome in their home. I told her that no matter what Alicia needed to know she was loved. Wendy said her and Chris had decided that a complete severance of their relationship was best and thanks for the advice, but no thanks. :(

Keep in mind this is a*very* brief summary of two years or so of emails, phone calls, good days, bad days, etc. Then, of course, they were reunited on the TLC special. I was appalled that it was filmed. Sick to my stomach. They now have a stable relationship. Not close, I don't think. Alicia atttended the family reunion Christ blogged about earlier this summer.

Do you want to know how frugal they are? A couple times a month a local farmer would make arrangements with a grocery store to take their outdated produce and grocery items. He would load them on a dirty farm trailer, then call Wendy who would meet him at his pig sty. Wendy could pick over the food and take whatever she wanted before he threw it to the waiting pigs. (She invited me with one time and I was so grossed out I could never go back.)

Now it's one thing to scrounge like that if your husband is out of work and your kids are starving (think the Great Depression), but to CHOOSE to do that and continue to have kids and feed them outdated produce and bread on a regular basis? Wrong.

And the second daughter they never mention? She lives overseas and is dating a ...wait for it...Muslim. :o

[Koala]

They sound every bit as deplorable and disgusting as I've imagined them. Somehow I don't have trouble picturing either one of them in a pigsty though. Actually, they are probably better suited to it than the pigs are.

[xDreamerx]

Alicia atttended the family reunion Christ blogged about earlier this summer.

Best typo ever. It made me imagine Jesus with a blog.

[Lillybee]

Welcome, and I wish you peace on the new road that you have chosen to walk.

[debrand]

I am going to ask you a strange question, Lalabee but it is because I was attracted to fundamentalism at one point. As a child, I was abused and grew into an adult who was underconfident and desperate to make the perfect life for her children. I can also see how my childhood produced a tendency toward black and white thinking. It's a trait that I am not proud of in myself and fight against it now. What was your own childhood like?

The story of Alicia breaks my heart. Her forgiveness of her parents is more Christ like than anything that they have done. Poor girl.

I could understand picking over refuse if you are starving but this family chose to have a large number of kids. That's crazy. The reason that I don't have more children is not because I didn't want a larger family but because we can't afford more.

[formergothardite]

Wow. The Jeubs are worse then I thought they were. I didn't realize how close in age Chris is to his stepdaughters. I'm glad both of them have escaped and I hope the other kids do too.

[Witsec1]

Thank you thank you for the Jeub inside info! I was the one who accused you of running away - sorry but I felt abandoned! :)

I don't know why the Jeubs affect me this way - I could care less about "the scoop" on other families and I am content with snarking on what they publicly post. Maybe it's having been banned from their blog for disagreeing with him in a a very polite and respectful comment.

Honestly they sound dysfunctional and no kind of role model for anyone.

Thanks for coming back to explain and sorry for my impatience!

[Justme]

I'm so glad Alicia is "free", happy, and doing well!!! :dance:

[demgirl]

Thanks for the intel and welcome. I think it's wonderful you reexamined your beliefs regarding the Pearls and walked away. Anything like the Pearls is easy to get caught up in and I applaud people who can reevaluate and make different decisions. I have no doubt that your children are a million times better for it.

I too have always had a strange fixation on the Jeubs, FloraPaste. I have no idea what it is, but somehow they seem the looniest to me. Maybe it's simply because they actually had a child break away and they treated her exactly as I've always suspected fundies would treat a child who chose a different path. I wish I could say I was suprised by the past dated food, but I'm not...