OK, OK...time to delurk...Jeubs, Maxwells, and more

[Guest Anonymous]

And lest anyone think that I am somehow endorsing fundamentalism and its myriad abuses, let me say for the record that I am a feminist graduate student who will be writing a dissertation on women in fundamentalism. In other words, I am dedicating the next three years of my life to exposing problems of fundamentalism. I'd just like to see a little bit of compassion rather than automatic suspicion from "liberated" people towards former fundamentalists. You have no idea how confusing and frightening the road out can be.

Bullshit. More than a few of us, including myself, have walked the road out. Some of us got out with less damage done, some with more, but your dissertation doesn't outweigh our life experience. That was a crap thing to say.

Some people are questioning Lalabee and frankly anyone who reads the rules here should expect that to happen. If she's out of fundamentalism I'm happy for her, but no one is required to hold her hand and coo at her. I'm not interested in berating someone who has gotten out of that trap, but as a person who was born in the trap and had to damn near chew my foot off to get out of it, I'm not interested in listening to you tell me I have no idea how hard it is to leave. What the FUCK?

If the OP isn't beating her kids, and she's not raising them in the trap, once people see that she will most likely be fine here and get all kinds of support. But lots of people are not at all sympathetic to people who beat babies for Jesus, and I don't blame them for wanting to find out if that is happening before they make friends.

Edited to change WTF to What the FUCK? because the former did not adequately express my anger. Sheesh.

[Rhetorica]

I'm not interested in berating someone who has gotten out of that trap, but as a person who was born in the trap and had to damn near chew my foot off to get out of it, I'm not interested in listening to you tell me I have no idea how hard it is to leave. What the FUCK?

Excuse me. I HAVE walked away from religious extremism! I grew up looking like the people on this webpage: www.beachyam.org/ I grew up with no TV or radio, being spanked and forced to raise my siblings and wearing clothing inspired by pre-modern European peasants. At 21 I walked away from the only life I had ever known--into the open arms of a fundamentalist cult. A few years later I began to realize just how insane it all was and for the second time walked away from my entire social structure.

Your post especially stings because I didn't direct it toward people like you who have experienced leaving and the upheaval it entails. I sincerely apologize for not communicating that more clearly.

[VodouDoll]

I'd just like to see a little bit of compassion rather than automatic suspicion from "liberated" people towards former fundamentalists. You have no idea how confusing and frightening the road out can be.

Why are you lecturing us us for being uncompassionate and suspicious before anyone has even said anything? That's not a very nice assumption for you to make.

[Guest Anonymous]

Excuse me. I HAVE walked away from religious extremism! I grew up looking like the people on this webpage: http://www.beachyam.org/ I grew up with no TV or radio, being spanked and forced to raise my siblings and wearing clothing inspired by pre-modern European peasants. At 21 I walked away from the only life I had ever known--into the open arms of a fundamentalist cult. A few years later I began to realize just how insane it all was and for the second time walked away from my entire social structure.

Your post especially stings because I didn't direct it toward people like you who have experienced leaving and the upheaval it entails. I sincerely apologize for not communicating that more clearly.

I would have taken your post a whole lot better if you had led with the information that you've been there, and as someone who left it behind you felt that people coming out of fundamentalism should be treated gently. I still would have disagreed with you but I wouldn't have done it with steam coming out of my ears.

From one escapee to another, I'm glad that we're both out. I see where you're coming from -we may not agree but that's okay. Thank you for the clarification.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

To those of you who are ready to jump all over Lalabee for being attracted to fundamentalism, please try to apply just a bit of your pluralism and open-mindedness here. It is not just crazy whackos who are attracted to the predictability and promises of fundie-dom. The snake-oil salesmen target people who are sincerely wanting to do the right thing, and willing to sacrifice themselves and their desires in the process.

I hear ya. I'm not REMOTELY religious (or even sharing the cultural underpinnings they have) and yet I can't deny that when I first started reading about some of these families via homeschooling groups, there was a sort of fascination with the perfect order they seemed to have. I mean, to read the blogs and posts, their kids are perfectly behaved 24/7, devoting hours to their studies (even if not anything I'd ever have my kid studying), enjoying the "living books" and all the rest, always happy to do their chores because they are so amazingly responsible... it's that Little House on the Prairie image, or the warm family dinner image. I think a lot of recruiters into the lifestyle (or kiruv people, if you go for the Jewish version) use these images to draw people in. "If you become religious, you can have this perfect family, with pure children who know nothing of the secular world..."

[Rhetorica]

I would have taken your post a whole lot better if you had led with the information that you've been there, and as someone who left it behind you felt that people coming out of fundamentalism should be treated gently. I still would have disagreed with you but I wouldn't have done it with steam coming out of my ears.

From one escapee to another, I'm glad that we're both out. I see where you're coming from -we may not agree but that's okay. Thank you for the clarification.

Cool. I thought I indicated that, but clearly did not do it adequately. I'll try to be more clear in the future.

[Rhetorica]

I hear ya. I'm not REMOTELY religious (or even sharing the cultural underpinnings they have) and yet I can't deny that when I first started reading about some of these families via homeschooling groups, there was a sort of fascination with the perfect order they seemed to have.

Exactly. I remember the day that someone pointed out to me that IBLP/ATI were marketing an image just like, say, Mormons. I'm embarrassed to remember how old I was until I considered that the product they were selling wasn't necessarily the reality. What can I say? Critical thinking was scrubbed from our curriculum! :)

[Guest Anonymous]

Okay, I've been thinking about this. Rhetorica, you have a point - people who are coming out of fundamentalism do need compassion. It is hard to leave, and may involve losing friends, family, and support systems. That can make you fragile.

The thing is, there are quite a few online support groups and forums whose only purpose is to allow ex-fundies to talk about and work through their issues in a non judgemental environment. Free Jinger is not one of those places. This is where the gloves come off. We ask one another hard questions, we snark, we debate, and we fight. If someone reads the rules, signs up, and posts here, they have agreed that they are ready for that. If they aren't, then they need to find another venue. The responsibility to protect themselves lies with the ex-fundie, not the posters here. We're not going to tone it down to make someone comfortable. We don't work that way. There are other places that do. This is the kitchen, and we all know what to do if we can't stand the heat.

[Witsec6]

Okay, I've been thinking about this. Rhetorica, you have a point - people who are coming out of fundamentalism do need compassion. It is hard to leave, and may involve losing friends, family, and support systems. That can make you fragile.

The thing is, there are quite a few online support groups and forums whose only purpose is to allow ex-fundies to talk about and work through their issues in a non judgemental environment. Free Jinger is not one of those places. This is where the gloves come off. We ask one another hard questions, we snark, we debate, and we fight. If someone reads the rules, signs up, and posts here, they have agreed that they are ready for that. If they aren't, then they need to find another venue. The responsibility to protect themselves lies with the ex-fundie, not the posters here. We're not going to tone it down to make someone comfortable. We don't work that way. There are other places that do. This is the kitchen, and we all know what to do if we can't stand the heat.

I agree with you Lissar, but I also can see how Rhetorica could see some of the responses as accusatory without cause. Especially as she's (relatively) new to FJ, she might not have seen some of the crazysauce rugshitting that has gone on before!

[Witsec1]

I just want dish on the J*ubs - because I'm shallow like that.

Is Chris as much of a pompous pea-brained asshole as he sounds on the blog? What did Alicia do that was so awful? And was she kicked out before or after she was 18?

[luckylibrarian]

I'd just like to see a little bit of compassion rather than automatic suspicion from "liberated" people towards former fundamentalists. You have no idea how confusing and frightening the road out can be.

Spare us the lecture. There is a history here of people showing up and then disappearing or shitting on the rug. More than one person here saw the potential for things to go in that direction.

Lalabe posted here and listed her fundie credentials and name-dropped the Jeubs. She claimed to know the Alicia situation and seemed to hint that she had insider information. Of course everyone is going to start asking her questions! She asked if anyone had any questions! I actually think everyone has been very restrained. The only thing people are asking her is if she used a switch on her babies - a legitimate question for someone who has every Pearl book and subscribed to their method of parenting. Anyone who spends ten minutes on this board has to know that a remark like that is bound to be controversial.

I'll give her compassion when I hear her answer as to whether or not she showed compassion to her children. Until then, I'm on the fence.

ETA: Absolutely this:

The thing is, there are quite a few online support groups and forums whose only purpose is to allow ex-fundies to talk about and work through their issues in a non judgemental environment. Free Jinger is not one of those places. This is where the gloves come off. We ask one another hard questions, we snark, we debate, and we fight. If someone reads the rules, signs up, and posts here, they have agreed that they are ready for that. If they aren't, then they need to find another venue. The responsibility to protect themselves lies with the ex-fundie, not the posters here. We're not going to tone it down to make someone comfortable. We don't work that way. There are other places that do. This is the kitchen, and we all know what to do if we can't stand the heat.

[Koala]

Spare us the lecture. There is a history here of people showing up and then disappearing or shitting on the rug. More than one person here saw the potential for things to go in that direction.

Lalabe posted here and listed her fundie credentials and name-dropped the Jeubs. She claimed to know the Alicia situation and seemed to hint that she had insider information. Of course everyone is going to start asking her questions! She asked if anyone had any questions! I actually think everyone has been very restrained. The only thing people are asking her is if she used a switch on her babies - a legitimate question for someone who has every Pearl book and subscribed to their method of parenting. Anyone who spends ten minutes on this board has to know that a remark like that is bound to be controversial.

I'll give her compassion when I hear her answer as to whether or not she showed compassion to her children. Until then, I'm on the fence.

ETA: Absolutely this:

A.FREAKING.MEN

[xDreamerx]

I feel like Lalabe as been asked more than once if she did switch or beat her children as per the Pearls and gave non-answers, which makes me skeptical.

My question is: I understand why the fundie idea of the "perfect" life with "perfect" families can appeal to people. It appeals to everyone in various non-fundie forms so it's hardly surprising. BUT, when someone proposes you BEAT your children, shouldn't that make a person snap out of it? Even if you are really into the lifestyle and believe it all, shouldn't something tell you it's wrong?

[emmiedahl]

I jumped at her a little because I thought she was endorsing the Pearls' methods and saying that beating babies produces better citizens. But I criticized the methods, not her. I understand that people in patriarchy might do things they later regret. I can't imagine myself hitting an infant in any way, in any context, so it's hard for me to imagine doing so because of a book written by someone who is a parenting fail, but I understand that it could happen.

[YPestis]

I applaud anyone who try to get out of a bad situation. It is a hard thing to walk away from a chosen lifestyle and all the friends you made from there. I hope the OP feels welcomed here on FJ as I think of it as a shelter for the victims of fundamentalism as it is for those snarking about the lifestyle.

I have a friend who somewhat shared similar situatio---grew up in a conservative Mennonite family, eventually left for a modern, secular lifestyle and was almost disowned by her family. It is extremely difficult and I was amazed at her transition (she dresses so stylishly, her opinions are no different than your typical left leaning feminist etc). However, I understand not everyone can make that smooth worldly transition and I encourage the OP to use FJ as a resource as well as a sounding board. Welcome!

[luckylibrarian]

I feel like Lalabe as been asked more than once if she did switch or beat her children as per the Pearls and gave non-answers, which makes me skeptical.

My question is: I understand why the fundie idea of the "perfect" life with "perfect" families can appeal to people. It appeals to everyone in various non-fundie forms so it's hardly surprising. BUT, when someone proposes you BEAT your children, shouldn't that make a person snap out of it? Even if you are really into the lifestyle and believe it all, shouldn't something tell you it's wrong?

What is bothering me is I can't figure out where she stands on the Pearls. Did she use their methods, or was she just planning on using them but changed her mind before the kids came? (Does she even have kids?) Thinking about switching a baby and actually doing it are different, in my book. I don't think Lalabe would be shown the door if she admitted to doing things that she now regrets. People - especially former fundies - have admitted on here to spanking their kids or doing things they now regret.

[formergothardite]

What is bothering me is I can't figure out where she stands on the Pearls. Did she use their methods, or was she just planning on using them but changed her mind before the kids came? (Does she even have kids?) Thinking about switching a baby and actually doing it are different, in my book. I don't think Lalabe would be shown the door if she admitted to doing things that she now regrets. People - especially former fundies - have admitted on here to spanking their kids or doing things they now regret.

Yeah, if she did it and now realizes how horrible it was I don't think anyone would have a problem her. But giving non-answers sends off a red flag for me. I mean, it breaks my hearth to think of babies being beaten, but as long as she realizes and admitts how wrong that was, then there really isn't anything to do about it now, except spread the word about how evil the Pearls are so no more babies will be hurt.

[xDreamerx]

Yeah...I don't know. The fact that no direct answer was given makes me lean towards thinking she did. But, I believe in giving people the benefit of the doubt and allowing them to answer for themselves. I'll presume she didn't until I hear something to the contrary. I wasn't trying to imply that she should be shown the door, or kicked out or anything, if it read that way. I was just trying to express that I find switching a baby a horrid thing to do, whether you're lured into a cult or not.

[anniebgood]

Umm I've got some Resolve Pet Floor cleaner with Oxi here and I'll be glad to spray it on the carpet. Seems like we got shat and run (the cat puked up a hairball on my bedroom carpet too).

[Lalabee]

Wow. I've been out of the house most of the day. Apologies if my answers haven't been complete enough. You have to remember I was involved in this culture about 11 years. It's pretty hard to sum up 11 YEARS in a few posts.

The Pearls. I think they are evil, misguided, strange, abusive people. I have no respect for them and am so saddened by what they've done to homeschooling families.

I have four children: 16, 14, 11 and 9. Did I switch my babies? I spanked each of them on the hand for various offenses and switched their thighs (never younger than a year old) about 4 or 5 times each. Did I do it a lot, consistently? No. Did I do it enough so that I feel guilt? Yes. :(

I would go through Pearl phases. Read their materials, listen to their tapes, etc. They seemed to contradict themselves repeatedly, but I just thought it was me not understanding the situation correctly. We would have a 'boot camp'....you're all familiar with "Raising Godly Tomatoes", right? So I'd Pearlize for a few weeks, then just gradually loosen up, and a several months later do it all over again.

Why did I believe them? To me that is an outrageous question, but I have to remember you have had a different life experience then me. Everyone in my community who followed them had kind, sweet, fun hardworking children who were very polite and well mannered. Everyone in my community who belonged to La Leache League or openly embraced attachment parenting had kids who were fussy, whining, mean, and well...bratty. At the time, this further proved to me I was on the right path.

I can't tell you the wonderful relationship I have with my children now. I'm so relieved I got out when I did.

I hope I've answered some questions. Time to make supper.

Back later.

[emmiedahl]

When you say "fussy, whining, mean, and well...bratty", are you talking about older children or younger ones? Because a normal baby or toddler, even a preschool, will be that way much of the time.

[xDreamerx]

When you say "fussy, whining, mean, and well...bratty", are you talking about older children or younger ones? Because a normal baby or toddler, even a preschool, will be that way much of the time.

I wondered this as well. I think that a lot of people in ATI, QF, etc. have unrealistic expectations babies, toddler and young children but that's more of general flaw I see than anything personal at Lalabe.

[PhoenixFeathers]

Ugh...just lost a l-o-n-g post. :(

Quick answers:

-I was drawn to the Maxwells through MOTH.

MOTH/Maxwells were our gateway fundies at my house. The "perfectness" the order... yes. very attractive. Especially to large families. My mom and I were on the mothers board/daughter's boards respectively.

Anyway. Welcome! :dance:

[emmiedahl]

I'm not aiming anything I say directly at Lalabee. Just to make that clear. I am interested because I have always wondered what makes a person want to hit an infant. When you say,

I spanked each of them on the hand for various offenses and switched their thighs (never younger than a year old) about 4 or 5 times each.

you have my full attention because this is abusive behavior and I wonder why a loving parent would do that and also what made her stop.

If we know why people do it and why they stop doing it, we have a hope at stopping this Doctrine of Child Abuse.

[Koala]

Why did I believe them? To me that is an outrageous question, but I have to remember you have had a different life experience then me. Everyone in my community who followed them had kind, sweet, fun hardworking children who were very polite and well mannered. Everyone in my community who belonged to La Leache League or openly embraced attachment parenting had kids who were fussy, whining, mean, and well...bratty. At the time, this further proved to me I was on the right path.

Um, what choice did they have? You have read the shit Michael and Debi Pearl write haven't you? What do you think would have happened to those kids if they had appeared anything BUT kind, sweet, fun, and hardworking? For children raised by those standards, it's comply, or else :(