Journey to the Heart

[Katydid]

Me too...but he is a creepy old man with a bunch of young girls who never married yet makes a lot of rules concerning sexuality. Very scary

He's always seemed like someone I would never allow my child to be alone with.

[ILoveJellybeans]

Theres something definetly strange about him. He is an old man who is likely a virgin (by fundie standards, usually unmarried=virgin, or at least pretending to be one) and has a strange obsession with the virginity of teen girls.

[Anxious Girl]

The description of what they do reminds of the girls' "confessions" at the Salem Witch Trials... Does Gothard really want to create a real-life The Crucible, again? Witch hunts didn't work the first time, you wingnut! :evil:

[fundies_like_zombies]

Theres something definetly strange about him. He is an old man who is likely a virgin (by fundie standards, usually unmarried=virgin, or at least pretending to be one) and has a strange obsession with the virginity of teen girls.

Do you think the older fundie guys stay virgins even if they aren't likely to get married?

I figure the girls do cos they would have all that guilt and pregnancy fears.

[gustava]

Do I Have an Uncircumcised Heart?

Twelve Attitudes of a Good Heart

A Circumcised Heart vs. A Deceitful Heart

[ILoveJellybeans]

Do you think the older fundie guys stay virgins even if they aren't likely to get married?

I figure the girls do cos they would have all that guilt and pregnancy fears.

It wouldnt suprise me if some of them werent, especially old men like Gothard, as men have more freedom, theres less slut shaming about men compared to women, and also theres no chance of getting pregnant.

And I think at least 99% of the older unmarried fundie men have masturbated at some point, I think for the average sexual male, it would be impossible to hold in all those urges in such a sexualised society where men are told they are uncontrollable sexual beings.

[Deleted07]

If you desire or have affection for anything that isn't Godly, you have an 'uncircumcised in heart' meaning not submitting to God enough or following his laws.

Quote:

Uncircumcised in heart - Circumcision was a sign of being a Jew - of acknowledging the authority of the laws of Moses. It was also emblematic of purity, and of submission to the Law of God. The expression "uncircumcised in heart" denotes those who were not willing to acknowledge that Law, and submit to it. They had hearts filled with vicious and unsubdued affections and desires.

The murmuring heart:

Quote:

The evil of a murmuring spirit. There is more evil in it than you are aware of.

Murmuring argues much corruption, and strong corruption... A murmuring heart is a rebellious heart.

When discontent comes, it grows to murmuring, and you can go into no house almost, but there is murmuring when men are discontented, so that within a little while it breaks forth into sedition or rebellion. Murmuring is but as the smoke of the fire: there is first a smoke and smouldering before the flame breaks forth; and so before open rebellion in a kingdom there is first a smoke of murmuring, and then it breaks forth into open rebellion. But because it has the seeds of rebellion, it is accounted before the Lord to be rebellion. Will you be a rebel against God? When you feel your heart discontented and murmuring against the dispensation of God towards you, you should check it thus: Oh, you wretched heart! What, will you be a rebel against God? Will you rise in rebellion against the infinite God? Yet you have done so. Charge your heart with this sin of rebellion.

Basically that twinge that you get when you think the shit your parents and Gothard are shoving down your throught is a load of bull? Thats murmuring and its evil, a sin, and wrong! So you must change your heart immediately!!!

Adulterous Heart is basically anyone who turns from God, and seeks anything outside his word, betraying him and committing adultery toward God himself so it seems...

Quote:

It is restless, this adulterous heart

Desperate for worth, but wrongly searching

Finding pleasure in things that just leave it empty

GUH! The more I read these definitions the sadder I am for anyone following this principles. Yuck. :cry:

[Mythicwings]

Those descriptions of the uncircumcised and murmuring hearts are worrying - they sound like the stuff James Dobson says is wrong with your kid if he or she isn't compliant, then he recommends stuff like what Celie recommended in The Color Purple, "Beat her". Does Gothard recommend beating "rebellious" children?

[Deleted07]

From what I've read, Gothard promotes switching and spanking, but they use the code, and call it a "swift correction".

Since they are so worried about the government stepping in with their 'corrections' they are very conscious to make them private and behind closed doors, and not make these practices known to those outside the cult.... Which we have had confirmed with Michelle indeed saying the same things Gothard materials say about discipline; behind closed doors etc :(

[snarkykitty]

The description of what they do reminds of the girls' "confessions" at the Salem Witch Trials... Does Gothard really want to create a real-life The Crucible, again? Witch hunts didn't work the first time, you wingnut! :evil:

That's exactly how I envision this program. Girls wailing and crying and getting hysterical because they cannot repent enough. It breaks my heart. It's one thing to repent for misdoings and work on yourself, but it's another to emotionally flagellate yourself because you thought a boy was cute or you weren't thankful enough for TTC.

[fencesitter]

Out of curiosity - do we know if Anna Duggar ever went to JTTH?

[Anxious Girl]

That's exactly how I envision this program. Girls wailing and crying and getting hysterical because they cannot repent enough. It breaks my heart. It's one thing to repent for misdoings and work on yourself, but it's another to emotionally flagellate yourself because you thought a boy was cute or you weren't thankful enough for TTC.

Every other year lately, I get into a new time of history obsession. 2 years ago; it was the Witch Trials of Europe and Salem. It's kinda scary to see how fundies repeat history; not even realizing it. :? It makes me think that they actually want this Puritan pre-America back. OT: I'm recently into royal history; especially Europe's and Ethiopa's. * such a geek *

:dance: :dance: :dance:

[xReems]

Out of curiosity - do we know if Anna Duggar ever went to JTTH?

I know she attended one with Priscilla back in 2007 but other than that I'm not sure how many other times she attended.

[mrs]

Looks like the one the Duggar daughters may have been sent to Novembers "Journey to the Heart." The two young women on the right in the last row look like they could be one of the older daughters.

iluvgod.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/untitled.jpg

[OkToBeTakei]

How many bloody Journey's do they have to go on before they fecking get there?

[lexiloumarie]

Looks like the one the Duggar daughters may have been sent to Novembers "Journey to the Heart." The two young women on the right in the last row look like they could be one of the older daughters.

iluvgod.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/untitled.jpg

Jessa and Jana. Wow, how many Journeys does that make for Jana now?

[Talitha Cumi]

Jessa and Jana. Wow, how many Journeys does that make for Jana now?

It can't be rebellion-- she's too tired to be rebellious. I assume it's the only break she has from the kids. Sad that JTTH is her only option for rest. :|

[StacyW]

Looks like the one the Duggar daughters may have been sent to Novembers "Journey to the Heart." The two young women on the right in the last row look like they could be one of the older daughters.

iluvgod.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/untitled.jpg

Did you notice the two girls who are wearing belts to show off their waists? What vanity!

[ADoyle90815]

It can't be rebellion-- she's too tired to be rebellious. I assume it's the only break she has from the kids. Sad that JTTH is her only option for rest. :|

That's a possibility since if she's allowed to get married, she'll be expected to breed as much as her mom did.

[thetabmeister]

It can't be rebellion-- she's too tired to be rebellious. I assume it's the only break she has from the kids. Sad that JTTH is her only option for rest. :|

From what I've heard, it's not too restful. My friend went either last year or in '10 as a counselor (but it sounded like she was on the same level as everyone else) with Priscilla Keller, her "good friend" until Pris got married. Anyway, my friend got pneumonia. It was 10 days of no more than 4-6 hours sleep / day, forced fasting for I think 3 days (with no prep, who knows if they used protein suppplements or live juice like you should in a fast), forced hiking for several hours, forced outside time several hours a day (in MI in March with lots of snow on ground, friend is from Fla.), and forced "HOURS" of prayer. When they weren't doing all that, they sat around giving testimonies about how wicked they were. Also, if they wanted any food (during the non fasting days) the girls at JTTH had to prepare it in the kitchen themselves, and I was under the impression they had to bring their own food too....

My friend wrote a several page letter about how the journey went (of course, she thought it was awesome, even being bedridden for the last 3 days with pneumonia, which was the Devil's way of trying to keep her from fully experiencing all God had for her at the event). I never keep her letters after reading them a few times and pulling my hair out, but now I wish I had so I could summarize the main points for those who are probably wondering exactly what happens there. It's so crazy/ I'd never wish it on my daughter. She is now 26 (my friend) and just entered an arranged marriage in Oct. with a man she met in Feb. :cry: She tells me she cant get over how good he is to her. I just hope he's less fundy and will make her life easier and that she never has to go to a horrid Gothard event again. Poor girl.

[TinyDancer87]

Yup, that's Jana and Jessa.

And this won't be the last we'll see of Jana. She is a counselor now, and even was one in an episode. I'm guessing that Jessa is accompanying her for support.

Another observation is that the ATI girls are looking a lot prettier that they were a couple of years ago. The supremecy way of thinking is creeping into how they style themselves. Pretty soon they'll just be vision forum girls, just with a different cult leader.

At least we don't see Joy-Anna in the picture.

[mrs]

From what I've heard, it's not too restful. My friend went either last year or in '10 as a counselor (but it sounded like she was on the same level as everyone else) with Priscilla Keller, her "good friend" until Pris got married. Anyway, my friend got pneumonia. It was 10 days of no more than 4-6 hours sleep / day, forced fasting for I think 3 days (with no prep, who knows if they used protein suppplements or live juice like you should in a fast), forced hiking for several hours, forced outside time several hours a day (in MI in March with lots of snow on ground, friend is from Fla.), and forced "HOURS" of prayer. When they weren't doing all that, they sat around giving testimonies about how wicked they were. Also, if they wanted any food (during the non fasting days) the girls at JTTH had to prepare it in the kitchen themselves, and I was under the impression they had to bring their own food too....

My friend wrote a several page letter about how the journey went (of course, she thought it was awesome, even being bedridden for the last 3 days with pneumonia, which was the Devil's way of trying to keep her from fully experiencing all God had for her at the event). I never keep her letters after reading them a few times and pulling my hair out, but now I wish I had so I could summarize the main points for those who are probably wondering exactly what happens there. It's so crazy/ I'd never wish it on my daughter. She is now 26 (my friend) and just entered an arranged marriage in Oct. with a man she met in Feb. :cry: She tells me she cant get over how good he is to her. I just hope he's less fundy and will make her life easier and that she never has to go to a horrid Gothard event again. Poor girl.

I feel very sad for all the young women who attend. JTTH doesn't seem to be a "vacation" I would sign up to enjoy. Sara, from JTTH writes about her testimony on her blog.

While the other girls were talking, laughing, and playing games, I felt a real sense of heaviness on my heart…a heaviness I couldn’t explain. I felt like I could burst into tears at any moment, so I decided to go up in the tower to pray.

I sat against the wall, in total darkness, pouring my heart out to God, and crying. What happened next is the part that is so hard to explain. The heaviness in my heart would just not go away…no matter how hard I prayed. In fact, it seemed the harder I prayed, the heavier it got…I soon realized I was experiencing some type of Spiritual warfare.

I laid on the floor, praying and crying out to God to ‘take it away, whatever it is!’. By this time I had begun to experience physical affects as well…my right arm was shaking uncontrollably and my chest was incredibly tight.

I don’t know how long I had been laying there, when I heard a group of girls come up into the tower to pray for another girl that was struggling with things as well. I didn’t say anything, but they heard me crying and went back downstairs…except for one of them. It was my friend, Tiana.

I remember hearing the leaders come upstairs and they asked me if I wanted to sit up…I firmly told them ‘no’. But apparently it didn’t matter what I wanted as they told me I needed to sit up, and started trying to get me to my feet. I remember trying to resist them, but I was so weak I couldn’t. As they were lifting me up, I remember hearing Becky’s voice and next thing I knew she had her arms around me, holding me up. I was still crying.

By the time I had finished praying, I was still crying, but the heaviness was gone. I felt incredibly weak, but also a sense of joy! One of the girls there had a box of kleenex and was handing me some and, bless her sweet servants heart!, gathering the ones I was done with.

iluvgod.wordpress.com/2012/11/16/journey-to-the-heart-testimony-part-2/

iluvgod.wordpress.com/2012/11/14/journey-to-the-the-heart-testimony-part-1/

Edited to break link.

[thetabmeister]

I feel very sad for all the young women who attend. JTTH doesn't seem to be a "vacation" I would sign up to enjoy. Sara, from JTTH writes about her testimony on her blog.

iluvgod.wordpress.com/2012/11/16/journey-to-the-heart-testimony-part-2/

iluvgod.wordpress.com/2012/11/14/journey-to-the-the-heart-testimony-part-1/

How could somebody think that the experience above is normal or okay? worse, how could somebody desire this? If God is real, Maybe the reason she didn't feel the heaviness go away was not because it was His conviction of her but rather because she was carrying her own self-imposed burden. I'm sure the only reason the leaders tried to snap her out of it was for damage control, anyway. Love how she still blogged about it...but sadly the way these peeple are, they look at expereinces like this and WANT them and desire that to happen to them, too! Like how my friend was so honored and thrilled to get fricking pneumonia! That's no picnic. I don't get it.

ETA: changed "His fault" to "His conviction of her"

Edited to break links.

[thetabmeister]

Yup, that's Jana and Jessa.

And this won't be the last we'll see of Jana. She is a counselor now, and even was one in an episode. I'm guessing that Jessa is accompanying her for support.

Another observation is that the ATI girls are looking a lot prettier that they were a couple of years ago. The supremecy way of thinking is creeping into how they style themselves. Pretty soon they'll just be vision forum girls, just with a different cult leader.

At least we don't see Joy-Anna in the picture.

Look at their faces; some of those smiles sure look forced, and the rest are trained, so it's pretty impossible to know how these young women are actually feeling (not that they would know, themselves). Once you've been in the cult for so long, it's really, really, really hard to get to a place where you know yourself and make your own decisions based on what you've decided to be truth. For most of those women, I'd say there's probably no chance of their leaving the cult. I don't even know how one would begin helping them, and they'd likely not be willing to.

[snickerz]

I don't know how to copy the photo, but the 1st photo here is of them, also: livingthejourney.com/2012/11/16/photos-from-the-november-2012-girls-journey/

Also, have any of the Duggar BOYS ever gone on a journey? Or has it only been the girls?????