The Pilgrim/Hales/Buckinghams

[terranova]

sneaking out of lurkdom to share this link

shiningstarsmagazine.com/2011/04/stay-at-home-wife-interview-with-sharia-hale/

For awhile, I did some correspondence midwifery studies … however, after a while, I stopped doing them, as I felt like some of the required reading was somewhat defiling to my conscience, since it detailed intimate things that an unmarried, pure young woman would have no knowledge of.

What did she think she was going to find in midwiffery texts??

[Kitty]

Buckingham seems to be marrying off sons and daughters (a Jacob Berlin is courting Jerusalem Hale). Jim seems like he's a leave and cleave kinda guy.

Another note, Papa Pilgrim was first married to John Connally's daughter, who died in an accident :roll: when he was trying to grab a shotgun she was holding...

riffle

When her fingerprints were never found on said shotgun. :roll:

[Witsec7]

ignore me all these weird names have me confused...

edited for confusion

[emmiedahl]

Did anyone catch this in the comments?

In the fall of 2005, Mama Rose and the younger children all left their home in the mountains (McCarthy) and moved into my family’s home for a short period of time… No one was totally sure what was going to happen with their father (who was running from the law…then caught…etc…) So, we didn’t know exactly how things were going to happen longterm for the mother and younger children. After staying in my family’s home for a while, we found a place about 12 minutes away for her and the younger children… She stayed there for about 1-2 months… then moved into a small cabin on my parents property…only a couple minutes walk from the house… This was probably in January of 2006.

Joshua and I got married in March… and while we were on our honeymoon, it was discovered that there were some really bad things going on among the younger children while under her supervison… The children were removed from her care, and have been living in my family’s house ever since. Mama Rose was still TOTALLY involved in their lives…everyday, all day long….homeschooling, training, etc… However, as time went on, it was obvious that she was undermining the children’s training and oversight that my parents were giving them… and would disregard the rules of the home…over and over. So, slowly over the past 5.5 years, she became less and less involved in the family, until she was finally moved off the property and into a home that her older sons built for her…about .75 mile down the road.

So, both stories that you have heard are sort of right… she was taken in with all the rest… but over a number of years, she was removed from the family. Believe me, much time, effort, talks, etc…have been put into this situation, but over the years, nothing has really seemed to change. This situation was concerning not only to my family, but all of her older children as well. (They all want the children to stay right where they are.) The hope had been that over time, she would work through her own issues and then be able to have the children back… But she has not done this…and has instead, persisted on wanting her own way.

[Sweetpea1]

Did anyone catch this in the comments?

I wonder if the Pearls and TTUAC were involved.

[terranova]

Did anyone catch this in the comments?

So was she crazier than the Buckinghams and they were worried she was going down the path of her husband? Or was she the sane one and wanted to stop the brainwashing and the Buckinghams, holding all the cards and having the kids living under their roof, saw it as an opportunity to get rid of her and mold her children into their own image?

[Witsec7]

This is not to dismiss the criminal behaviors of Bob Hale, but I find Jim's a bit suspect. Jim Buckingham has an MIT degree yet his kids can hardly parse a sentence and spell like shit. And then there is the older kids with the Mommy and Daddy stuff, which always squees me out. And lets just say the Alaska Permanent Fund is paying out 2k per person per year...

[emmiedahl]

So was she crazier than the Buckinghams and they were worried she was going down the path of her husband? Or was she the sane one and wanted to stop the brainwashing and the Buckinghams, holding all the cards and having the kids living under their roof, saw it as an opportunity to get rid of her and mold her children into their own image?

I wonder that also. Maybe she saw how the whole patriarchy thing was not working...

The fact they said she was allowing certain bad behaviors. Like wearing pants maybe? It is hard to tell with these people, because nonviolent parenting is seen as being on par with child rape.

It is quite Biblical to have sex with a young girl, even your daughter. Nothing about skirts in there though.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

This is not to dismiss the criminal behaviors of Bob Hale, but I find Jim's a bit suspect. Jim Buckingham has an MIT degree yet his kids can hardly parse a sentence and spell like shit. And then there is the older kids with the Mommy and Daddy stuff, which always squees me out. And lets just say the Alaska Permanent Fund is paying out 2k per person per year...

I'm wondering just when he went fundy.

In the interview with Sharia (one of his older daughters, who married a Hale) Sharia says that when they were living on the East Coast, she and sisters near her in age were planning on college and professional careers for a while, and only THEN they THEY (the daughters) decide that no, actually they were called to the stay at home daughter life in Alaska with their parents, and so they gave up everything and went (to the point that she was worried about being defrauded by midwifery textbooks!) even though she didn't want to move to Alaska at all. She was 20 when they moved. 20. For most people, that's when you can easily say to your parents, oh, what, you're moving to Alaska? Cool, I would love to VISIT YOU THERE OCCASIONALLY, I hear the nature is awesome.

I'd love to know the backstory on that one, too.

And of course the Buckinghams were an Army family, they knew the Maxwells when they were stationed at Ft. Leavenworth, some 20 years ago (the travelogue said so). They went to the same church, this was of course when the Maxwells still went to church.

Do the Buckinghams have a regular blog? The travelogue is only set up for the trip, limited purpose.

[Witsec7]

I'm wondering just when he went fundy.

In the interview with Sharia (one of his older daughters, who married a Hale) Sharia says that when they were living on the East Coast, she and sisters near her in age were planning on college and professional careers for a while, and only THEN they THEY (the daughters) decide that no, actually they were called to the stay at home daughter life in Alaska with their parents, and so they gave up everything and went (to the point that she was worried about being defrauded by midwifery textbooks!) even though she didn't want to move to Alaska at all. She was 20 when they moved. 20. For most people, that's when you can easily say to your parents, oh, what, you're moving to Alaska? Cool, I would love to VISIT YOU THERE OCCASIONALLY, I hear the nature is awesome.

I'd love to know the backstory on that one, too.

And of course the Buckinghams were an Army family, they knew the Maxwells when they were stationed at Ft. Leavenworth, some 20 years ago (the travelogue said so). They went to the same church, this was of course when the Maxwells still went to church.

Do the Buckinghams have a regular blog? The travelogue is only set up for the trip, limited purpose.

He was a West Point instructor.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

So was she crazier than the Buckinghams and they were worried she was going down the path of her husband? Or was she the sane one and wanted to stop the brainwashing and the Buckinghams, holding all the cards and having the kids living under their roof, saw it as an opportunity to get rid of her and mold her children into their own image?

Interesting. With this particular group of people I have to admit, it could probably go either way - I'd love to know, too.

One of the religionnews pages mentioned that the mom (Kurina Rose Hale) had resumed some communication with her own mother. Bob Hale had cut off ties with her long ago. Her mother had ties to the entertainment industry (daughter of an actress, I think? Lives in LA) and that's how they got connections to Jack Nicholson to live on some land of his in New Mexico before they moved to Alaska.

It’s all too much for the family’s closest living relative, according to Kurina’s mother, who lives in Los Angeles and hasn’t been in touch with her grandchildren in five years.

“He is like Svengali. He’s building his own cult,†Betty Freeman said. “I don’t condemn it, but I do not approve of their lifestyle because they will not allow the children to be individuals. They don’t know anything about the outside world. I don’t think you bring people into the world and keep them illiterate.â€

She said her daughter was only 16 when she met Hale, who was twice her age.

“I have always loved her. I still do. But he has turned all of them against me,†Freeman said.

Along the trail that afternoon, Elishaba had spoken of her grandmother as someone with narrow, conventional views.

“I feel sorry for her. I wish she could see us and understand who we really are,†she said.

Papa Pilgrim says he cut off communication with Freeman when she wouldn’t stop pressing them over contraceptives. He bristles at the word “cult.†He says he knows that’s how some would interpret their simple, godly life.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

He was a West Point instructor.

Yeah. It was while living in West Point that the daughters apparently had been thinking of college. Just really makes me wonder about exactly how they morphed into who they are now (the entire family, that is).

Certainly it's another example of "well-educated parents decide to deny same to their children," even apart from all the rest of it...

[Witsec7]

Yeah. It was while living in West Point that the daughters apparently had been thinking of college. Just really makes me wonder about exactly how they morphed into who they are now (the entire family, that is).

Certainly it's another example of "well-educated parents decide to deny same to their children," even apart from all the rest of it...

On the blog its mentioned that Mrs. Buckingham came from a family of 15 and currently she only has 6 surviving siblings. He left WP and went on to serve out his career in AK. I'm wondering if the fundyness didn't take over until after he was at WP and that was his reason for leaving the academy? I can only guess. But I must say the Buck/Hales are a fusion of dysfunction.

[debrand]

I had allowed some “idols†(Christian friends, styles, etc …) in my life, and the Lord helped me to break them down, and choose to follow Him

.

http://shiningstarsmagazine.com/2011/04 ... aria-hale/

It is interesting that her idols include friends who shared her faith.

After they confronted their father, and he wasn’t repentant, things happened quickly

If their father had repented would they have let the matter drop?

In the comment section Sharia explains how she made her friend an idol

I

have noticed it common in the lives of young Christian ladies (and non-Christian), to look to peers, other Godly young ladies, a friend, an older woman, (or even a person they don’t know) etc… and set them up on a pedestal… wanting to be just like them. This can include (but is not limited to): wanting to imitate their dress, mannerisms, hairstyle, goals in life, etc… This is where I found myself… instead of looking to Christ, I was looking to another family/young woman… wanting to be like them, be accepted by them, look like them, etc…

I do not believe it is wrong to appreciate the character and life of another person… however, when that appreciation turns into covetousness (not satisfied with the way God made you, what you are doing, etc…) and desire to do whatever you need to do to fulfill your “dreamâ€, it turns into idolatry. For, if this person consumes your life, then they take the place of God in your life… you will begin to weigh decisions based on what that person will think, and not by what God thinks.

Of course, a young woman has to be ESPECIALLY careful, if they find that they feel this way towards a man. There is a proper place for a woman to appreciate the life of a man, but if it consumes her thoughts and heart, then it has taken too much room in her heart.

I had to come to a place of throwing out/burning clothes and things that connected me/my heart to this young woman and her family… The clothing and things, in and of themselves, were not necessarily wrong or sinful… they just meant too much to me.

Anyway, I hope that this will help answer your question… Feel free to ask if you have any other ones! :-)

Her feelings about her friend were so strong that she he had to burn out or throw away things that connected her to the girl. I would love to know the backstory of their relationship.

[hoipolloi]

I'm wondering if the fundyness didn't take over until after he was at WP and that was his reason for leaving the academy? I can only guess. But I must say the Buck/Hales are a fusion of dysfunction.

The US military has a lot of fundie Christians in its ranks, in all branches of service, so Daddy Jim may have started drinking the Kool-Aid long before WP, the move to Alaska & his retirement.

[Witsec7]

The US military has a lot of fundie Christians in its ranks, in all branches of service, so Daddy Jim may have started drinking the Kool-Aid long before WP, the move to Alaska & his retirement.

He was active duty when he moved them to AK.

[hoipolloi]

He was active duty when he moved them to AK.

Yes, and that really made wonder how his peers & superiors viewed his family living like peasants out in the sticks. Given what the Buckingham kids have said, it sounds like Daddy Jim embraced the isolationist views of fundie Christians while he was still in the Army.

In 2003, closing in on retirement, he drove his family back to Alaska in a 15-passenger van and found the land outside Palmer, on a dirt road inaptly named Goa Way. They climbed out of the van and prayed.

“We just purposed that we were going to build a cabin,†he said.

And they did, as Buckingham finished out his career commuting to Fort Richardson. The gambrel-roofed home of local three-sided logs was only 24 feet by 34 feet, small for a family of 11 and soon to seem much smaller.

(religionnewsblog.com/19977/the-pilgrims-papa-pilgrim)

From what I recall as an Army civilian employee years ago, even for those active duty personnel who live off-post, there's usually a certain amount of social interaction expected of the soldier & spouse at unit events (e.g., hail & farewell luncheons or dinners, branch of service balls, etc.).

On the other hand, if he had already been like this for years, perhaps it wasn't a shock to his fellow soldiers at Ft. Richardson & they were quite willing to leave the Buckinghams alone.

For info on fundies in the US military see http://www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org/

[debrand]

http://blog.alotofstevens.com/2012/05/v ... iends.html

A blog post about teh Hales and Buckinghams. This one includes lots of photos.

[Maggie Mae]

http://blog.alotofstevens.com/2012/05/visit-from-alaskan-friends.html

A blog post about teh Hales and Buckinghams. This one includes lots of photos.

I really "like" how it was a "time of fellowship." :roll: Most people would just call it a reunion or a (gasp) party! Having that many people in one building almost requires a permit.

[grateful1230]

In the above blog, Psalms is listed as one of the original or married in Westons. I'm assuming there are not two women/girls named Psalms, so this would be one of the Hale girls, correct? I'm horrified, and confused by the names, of the trauma these kids went through. Glad Papa Pilgrim didn't get to bring any ice on his journey..

[Elle]

If the Buckinghams hadn't 'taken on' the Hales, would they have been eligible for financial aid/medical/counselling help?

I kind of admire the B family for being prepared to help, but I'm not sure that it is necessarily the best kind of help for a family to whom Godknowswhat happened.

Not sure also whether it is healthy for their own not insignificantly sized family to be swamped by a clan of abused others?

The Bucks certainly would have qualified without having a family income and having so many kids, but good luck finding a county with enough money in their social services coffers to be able to provide services for a family that size without a long wait. They could get food stamps right away, but counseling usually has a very very long wait if it's offered at all, medical applications take take months, and after approval, can take a long time to get appointments. As far as housing, there are legal minimum requirements in most areas, such as a minimum number of square footage or rooms depending on how many people. 15 kids and a mom would easily require at least 8 bedrooms for section 8 in most areas, and for those areas that go by square footage, it's usually a couple hundred per person. So a home at least 3,000 sq. ft. Mansions. Section 8 pays a percentage, not everything. To get cash aid requires the head of household looking for a job. There's the problem of no one having enough of a basic education to do anything at all. While you'd think that social services department could make it all happen on the snap of someone's fingers, in reality it takes a lot of time, and with the extreme number of people, finding housing that is allowable by section 8 might be impossible. Good luck finding someone renting a mansion who will even take section 8. And imagine tossing so many children who are completely illiterate onto a school system, as would likely be required to happen. Only the oldest three can read at all, so 12 (who knows how many are old enough for school) who don't know the alphabet that a school district would be responsible for catching up to their peers. Few schools could afford the extreme special help they'd be required to provide.

The Bucks aren't idea, but are better than nothing, and there wasn't a lot of time to figure out anything else. The most harm is likely to happen to the Buck kids are they adjust to their household size more than doubling and being people who are dealing with horrific trauma.

[Denali]

A few points of interest.

No food stamps are used.

The house is 3 times its original size. And fully approved.

All services such as counseling, fostering of minors etc have been used.

Over half have now completed state accredited high school, with the rest at their appropriate grade level.

2 are now pilots with another soon to be.

7 are married now, and not necessarily to each other.

A large number of the older ones run a very successful construction company.

The bio mom was removed by the court system.

[Witsec7]

Well greetings from the lower 48 Denali. I don't suppose you'll want cake?

[Elle]

http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-ad ... l?page=all

Wow. WOW.

Okay, so the kids are all a lot older than I thought they were. I was thinking this was all more recent, and that there might still be toddlers, but this was several years ago and several are adults and older than me now. I sat here reading this with my own heart pounding.

Based on a few other things I've read about Daddy Buck, without him, the abuse of the kids and Rose would have continued, and it's thanks to him that any of the kids even started to think that something in their own lives was very wrong. He basically saved those kids and Rose, and then gave them the first safe home any of them have ever had. While I don't like the idea of friends being compared to having idols, I have a really hard time thinking too bad of a man who saved a victim of rape and encouraged her and the other kids who'd escaped to turn their dad in to the police. He's definitely not one of those fundies who thinks a father has the right to do whatever the hell he wants to his kids and that a wife should just submit to the abuse. Even Michelle Duggar has passed out a sheet stating a loving wife will tolerate her husband's abuses of her. Clearly Buck doesn't hold the opinion that men had the right to abuse.

The lives those kids, especially the girls, have no is so so so much better than what they had that for once I can't say that I think much should change. These are girls raised so thoroughly beaten down that one of them didn't question for years when ordered to sexually please her father, and all of them apparently still feel a lot of distrust toward the outside world at large. Those girls especially probably are a lot better off with husbands who, while heads of the households, protect them. For those girls, trying to convert them to a way of life where women are in every way equal to men would probably leave them feeling too exposed and afraid. And Buckingham doesn't sound like the sort who was raising kids by beating the daylights out of them. Based just on what he saw with Hale, which didn't sound like he say any actual hitting, he felt compelled to speak right in front of the kids about a father's relationship with his children and how it should be, and it was drastically different enough for those kids to not had the ability to ignore his words.

[Denali]

Elle, you are fairly correct in your thoughts. In fact, would you be shocked to find out they do not even spank in that house?