Adoption coercion on 16 and Pregnant

[currywurst]

I am not "speaking" for them. I am drawing a conclusion based upon what I saw on the show. They were all quite immature, very few of them had jobs, none had their own place, and almost all of them left their babies with grandma a lot of the time. I do not get how this observation means I am "speaking" for them. Look, I do not think a teenager should be in a position to fully support themselves - it is not a judgment on the teen moms - but by that same rationale, I do not think they are in a position to raise a child.

[emmiedahl]

Um well, at the very least most of the girls are sure mom and dad will be paying for everything - that's a HUGE chunk of the work right there. Then we have seen girls who live the baby with grandma all day while they go to school. Of course I do not personally know the girls. What a totally asinine question. We're talking about a TV show. I am talking about something I saw on a TV show.

I highly doubt so many of these girls would keep their babies if they knew they were going to be all on their own, or relying on the father. But, you're right, I do not know any of them personally. Probably most of them (and the fathers) were clearly all set to get their own place, get jobs, and care for their baby all on their own if the situation called for it.

Most of the kids work and seem to struggle to buy baby stuff, so I doubt they just expect the parents to pay for everything. And the majority of them have to either drop out or go on independent study because of the lack of babysitting. I wonder if we are watching the same show here.

I agree that most teens are not financially prepared to raise a child. I just don't think that coercing them into adoption is the right way to handle the situation. If that was my kid, my goal would be to get everyone to adulthood as unscathed as possible. Cuz, ya know, I am still the mom. With that long-term perspective, forced adoption is a bad thing and helping with the baby is a good thing.

[samurai_sarah]

I am not "speaking" for them. I am drawing a conclusion based upon what I saw on the show. They were all quite immature, very few of them had jobs, none had their own place, and almost all of them left their babies with grandma a lot of the time. I do not get how this observation means I am "speaking" for them. Look, I do not think a teenager should be in a position to fully support themselves - it is not a judgment on the teen moms - but by that same rationale, I do not think they are in a position to raise a child.

You said that the reason they keep their babies is because they know grandparents will help them out. You presumed to know their reasons, without actually knowing. Now you're saying that you made observations, based on a show, in which you've seen grandparents helping out. The only thing you can say with any certainty is that you've seen grandparents helping out. You infer. And then you claim to know, when really, you don't (and can't )know their reasons. Get it?

[CanadianHippie]

why should this be allowable for a teen mother to make her mother take care of their child while their teenager goes out partying? (see Jenelle and Farrah (season 1, only)).

This idea kinda pisses me off... No one bats an eye with a 25/30/35 year old mother has a family member willing to do it babysit for free so she can go out to a party or a bar or to hang with her friends. Yet everyone get their underwear thoroughly twisted when a teenage mother seeks the same privileged. Teen mom has to work or she's not really raising her child, she has to go to school or she's a failure, she has to stay home 100% of the time providing 100% of the care or she's not really raising her child... For fucks sake, we expect so much more from teen mothers than we expect from older mother and then call them failures, or irresponsible, or unfit parents when they don't match up to an ideal that no one would expect from an older mother because it's unattainable.

I've never bothered watching the show in question because I do think it's trashy to use these teens and they current emotional and physical state to make money. But I know that unless someone (no matter what the age) is partying every single night they are not being bad parents. They are being human and allowing themselves time to do things they find enjoyable to avoid the burn out of being a single parent.

[Mama Mia]

I can not even IMAGINE being such a cold-hearted evil bitch that I would not be willing to help my pregnant daughter and would throw her out into the street. Those hideous women should be prosecuted for child abandonment.

If they really, truly do not want to provide a home for their child and grandchild they should AT LEAST assist their daughter in finding a supportive alternative living situation and help them to obtain resources.

[amydamy]

Would you want to essentially raise another child when you're 55+ and getting ready to retire?

Would I want to, probably not, would I yes. And my parents would have too. My parents had to do a lot of things for me they probably didn't want to or foresee doing. My parents didn't just love and support me as long as I was under 18 and living my life the way they wanted. If I had gotten pregnant at 16 I know my Mom would have done everything she could so I could finish HS and go to college. She wouldn't have raised my child for me, but yes she would have helped. And I know if my brother had gotten someone pregnant she would have supported him and the mother as well.

Hell I'll be 32 in a few days and if I showed up at their door pregnant and needing help the wouldn't hesitate to give it to me.

[deelaem]

I would like to see the fathers of these children held to the same standard that we hold the young mothers to. ALL of the judgement here seems to be on these girls.

And speaking for myself, currywurst, I raised my son on my own - completely without help from my family. And I did not party, period.

[Dhani_C]

This idea kinda pisses me off... No one bats an eye with a 25/30/35 year old mother has a family member willing to do it babysit for free so she can go out to a party or a bar or to hang with her friends. Yet everyone get their underwear thoroughly twisted when a teenage mother seeks the same privileged. Teen mom has to work or she's not really raising her child, she has to go to school or she's a failure, she has to stay home 100% of the time providing 100% of the care or she's not really raising her child... For fucks sake, we expect so much more from teen mothers than we expect from older mother and then call them failures, or irresponsible, or unfit parents when they don't match up to an ideal that no one would expect from an older mother because it's unattainable.

I've never bothered watching the show in question because I do think it's trashy to use these teens and they current emotional and physical state to make money. But I know that unless someone (no matter what the age) is partying every single night they are not being bad parents. They are being human and allowing themselves time to do things they find enjoyable to avoid the burn out of being a single parent.

Sorry if I offended you (I truly am). I was referencing the fact that the moms in question (Jenelle, especially) would put their infant children to bed and then leave assuming their parents would take care of their child. They wouldn't come home until early morning and then sleep in and expect their parents to take care of the child while they slept. A 25/30/35 mother would presumably not do this. They would know exactly where their child was and with who (and have contact information in case they needed to be reached) and come home at an appropriate hour so that they could care for their child the following morning. I'm not saying parents (or any age) can't go out and have fun. As long as they keep their children as first priority and don't just randomly leave them and assume they'll be taken care of.

[CanadianHippie]

Sorry if I offended you (I truly am). I was referencing the fact that the moms in question (Jenelle, especially) would put their infant children to bed and then leave assuming their parents would take care of their child. They wouldn't come home until early morning and then sleep in and expect their parents to take care of the child while they slept. A 25/30/35 mother would presumably not do this. They would know exactly where their child was and with who (and have contact information in case they needed to be reached) and come home at an appropriate hour so that they could care for their child the following morning. I'm not saying parents (or any age) can't go out and have fun. As long as they keep their children as first priority and don't just randomly leave them and assume they'll be taken care of.

This is why specificity is important. I don't know how the aforementioned mothers do this, but there are plenty of people out there who demonize a teen mother for having grandma babysit while she's at work.

[emmiedahl]

I would like to see the fathers of these children held to the same standard that we hold the young mothers to. ALL of the judgement here seems to be on these girls.

And speaking for myself, currywurst, I raised my son on my own - completely without help from my family. And I did not party, period.

I completely agree with this. As the mother of a teenage son, I would be kicking his ass: making him work to support the child and perform his fair half of the parenting. And I would be helping out with the baby as well, with the ultimate goal of seeing both parents become gradually more independent and have a viable future. I don't see another path that leads to a healthy family. Some women just.can't.do adoption. I considered it when I was a pregnant teen, but I knew that I would never be able to walk out of that hospital without my baby. I can not do it. Thank God no one was threatening me with homelessness.

It seems like there is this really punitive attitude toward teen moms. CanadianHippie pointed out wisely that adult moms are known to go out occasionally (in fact we are generally encouraged to do so!) while a teen mom is expected to go to school full-time, work full-time and also be with her baby 100% percent of the time. These expectations certainly would not be heaped on the married adult adoptive mother that everyone things "deserves" the baby more. If you are married, the father of the baby needs to support you and if he doesn't then he is bad one. If you a single teen mom, you are supposed to do the impossible because you are just a dirty slut who should have known better. And if you can't, then you need to give your baby away.

These are not reasonable expectations for an adult, so why are we so hard on children who cannot meet them?

And why do we keep bringing up Jenelle? She is not a typical teen mom, and her problems are such that she could not raise a child without treatment no matter what her age. She was untreated bipolar and self-medicating. I have seen adults do this and it never ends well, but that does not mean a healthy normal teen will do the same thing.

[currywurst]

I would like to see the fathers of these children held to the same standard that we hold the young mothers to. ALL of the judgement here seems to be on these girls.

And speaking for myself, currywurst, I raised my son on my own - completely without help from my family. And I did not party, period.

Excellent. I think that is great. And I 100% totally agree with you about the fathers. They are let off the hook way too easily when they should not be. I think the fathers most certainly should be held to the same standard.

I think maybe I have not been clear: I am really not "judging" these girls. I am merely pointing out that they are what they are: children. They're physically capable of making babies but they still have very little maturity. It is not a judgment. I have seen enough of this show to conclude that it is sort of cruel how these girls are asked to "step it up" to do something that they simply are not ready to do. They need some growing up before they start making babies. I needed it too! I do not think that any one of the girls on this show are bad people. I think most of them do not make for particularly good moms because they are immature and not ready to be mothers. Very few people at that age are. That is why I think it is reasonable to seriously persuade them to give their babies up for adoption. Like I said, I do not support this because I am some awful bitch who wants to traumatize teen girls. I support it because I honestly believe, that in the end, it will be in the best interest of the mom and the baby. I want these girls to have a good life. I want them to get educated and to build something for themselves. I want them to finally settle down with a man they really are compatible with and not just go through some never-ending war to try and make it work with their 11th grade boyfriend. I am a realist, however, who understand that a teenager who thinks she is in love, is not in the best position to make a decision in this regard. That is why I think it is acceptable to seriously work on persuading a girl to give the baby up for adoption. I agree it is traumatizing. I agree it may not be exactly what the girl "chooses." My point is that a child that age does not generally have the wisdom to make that decision. That is not always the case of course, but it is a lot of the time. Teenagers are stubborn and they make bad decisions. I simply do not think it is wise to humor them in this respect when it comes to the rest of their lives as well as the life of another innocent child.

[shrewlu]

No pregnant teenager/adult should be coerced into anything. Adoption is a choice. Abortion is a choice. Parenting is a choice. And that choice belongs to the person who is pregnant.

If I had a pregnant teenage daughter, I would make it clear what my opinion was, but also make it clear that it is her choice, not mine. I'd clearly lay out what I'd do to help, whether that help is time, financial or just emotional support (which would be offered no matter what) and I'd clearly let her know that I'd support her decision. For me, it all comes down to choice. And, if my hypothetical teenage daughter were pregnant, I'd want her to make her choice after being fully informed and without any coercion.

[CanadianHippie]

I think maybe I have not been clear: I am really not "judging" these girls. I am merely pointing out that they are what they are: children.

They are not children. They are part of a recently defined subgroup of young adults know as teens.

[Guest Anonymous]

That is why I think it is reasonable to seriously persuade them to give their babies up for adoption. Like I said, I do not support this because I am some awful bitch who wants to traumatize teen girls. I support it because I honestly believe, that in the end, it will be in the best interest of the mom and the baby. I want these girls to have a good life. I want them to get educated and to build something for themselves. I want them to finally settle down with a man they really are compatible with and not just go through some never-ending war to try and make it work with their 11th grade boyfriend. I am a realist, however, who understand that a teenager who thinks she is in love, is not in the best position to make a decision in this regard. That is why I think it is acceptable to seriously work on persuading a girl to give the baby up for adoption. I agree it is traumatizing. I agree it may not be exactly what the girl "chooses." My point is that a child that age does not generally have the wisdom to make that decision. That is not always the case of course, but it is a lot of the time. Teenagers are stubborn and they make bad decisions. I simply do not think it is wise to humor them in this respect when it comes to the rest of their lives as well as the life of another innocent child.

How nice for you that you believe that, but it's not always the case, and thank fuck it's not your decision to make for anyone else. Getting pressured into giving up a baby and then regretting it for the rest of one's days is no way to have a good life. Pressuring someone in regards to adoption is coercive and abusive, not a refusal to "humor" a silly whim.

[samurai_sarah]

(snip)Teenagers are stubborn and they make bad decisions. I simply do not think it is wise to humor them in this respect when it comes to the rest of their lives as well as the life of another innocent child.

FFS, supporting teen parents in their choices isn't "humouring" them! Like most parents, they're trying to do what's best for their children, and as a society, we're not "humouring" them by kindly "allowing" them to keep their babies. They need help and support far more than a lecture on how they're going to fail anyway, and how this will screw up their lives. Supporting a teen mother isn't humouring anyone, holding a teen father accountable and supporting him too, isn't humouring anyone either. It's about helping kids making the best of their unique situation, with the least amount of trauma for all concerned, and that includes the babies.

[currywurst]

currywurst wrote:

I think maybe I have not been clear: I am really not "judging" these girls. I am merely pointing out that they are what they are: children.

They are not children. They are part of a recently defined subgroup of young adults know as teens.

Okay, so they are young adults then? Well an adult is perfectly capable of taking care of themselves. Thus, all those on this board saying that the parents have to care for a minor until they are 18 are way off base. Thanks for the clarification!

[CanadianHippie]

Okay, so they are young adults then? Well an adult is perfectly capable of taking care of themselves. Thus, all those on this board saying that the parents have to care for a minor until they are 18 are way off base. Thanks for the clarification!

Ok, you do understand that a teenager is 1) not a child and 2) not capable of meet all requirements to taking care of oneself such as a living wage, signing a lease, and in some cases living on their own without their parents facing legal ramifications right?

You seem to have a very simplistic view of adolescence that doesn't take into consideration things like age, legal abilities, or financial abilities.

[Maul the Koala]

This is probably harsh of me but there are many other venues for adoption instead of pressuring adolescents to give up their babies for adoption. How many children are sitting in the foster care system? I've also heard in the States that African American babies aren't as desired. In fact I know people from Canada that got fast-tracked to adopt in the States because they were willing to adopt an African American baby. It's ridiculous to even imply that all adolescents should surrender their babies because there are a lot of people waiting for infants to adopt.

[lexiloumarie]

Adoption has it's own set of emotional consequences on a birth mother. It's not as simple as "here's my baby, have a nice day!" And frankly it's a little gross to assume you know a woman better than she knows herself. It all comes down to a woman's right to choose, no matter what that choice is. Yes, she should be allowed to consider abortion, adoption, and keeping the child. And even teenager mothers have emotions, and bond and attach to their baby. They can in fact be good parents. For all the anecdata about bad teen parents, I've had the opposite experience. My cousin was pregnant with her first at her high school graduation. She's now a co-op homeschooling, baby wearing, extended bf-ing, cloth diapering, home grown, homemade baby food feeding, couldn't be crunchier mom to 6!

And to whoever insinuated that by paying the medical costs of a birth mother, only for her to keep the baby is ripping them off - YOU CANNOT BUY A BABY. Period. We considered adoption before IUI, and the first thing the lawyer tells you is that you have to consider that money as gone. It's a gift, and you cannot expect it back or to get anything in return. If that's going to be a problem for you than consider another form of adoption.

[emmiedahl]

I am the one who referred to them as children. Legally they are children, and I know I see a child still when I look at my 16 year old. He is not capable of supporting himself. If he gets someone pregnant, he will have to grow up quickly. But he will still be a minor child and I will be legally responsible for supporting him as well as helping him reach adulthood successfully with an entirely new set of challenges. It is not like there is no precedent for parents being required to deal with unpleasant results of adolescent experimentation. If he kills someone in a car accident, I am liable even if I did not give him the car or allow him to drive.

We had a "pregnancy epidemic" at my high school. My teen parent friends had varying amounts of parent support, but all worked, finished school and got their lives together. You are only a teen parent for a few years, and with minimal amounts of help you can become a very capable adult parent quickly.

[StarrieEyedKat]

Okay, so they are young adults then? Well an adult is perfectly capable of taking care of themselves. Thus, all those on this board saying that the parents have to care for a minor until they are 18 are way off base. Thanks for the clarification!

Are you being deliberately dumb about this?

[27randomscribbles]

Former adoption social worker here and I have way too much to say on this subject so I will limit myself to this:

1. No woman, no matter her age, "should" give up her child for adoption.

2. Adoption is not always or automatically a better option for the child. Many adoptees grow up wishing they could have been raised within their birth family and feel a deep sense of loss.

3. Arguments (which I have heard ad nauseum over the years) that speak to adoptive parents being better able to provide for the child reek of classism to me. Also, it is beyond sad that in the U.S. women feel they have to make adoption plans for their children based on finances. This doesn't happen in other developed countries. We should create a system so that it never has to happen in the U.S.

4. Being pro choice means you support a woman's choices, no matter how "immature" she might be.

5. If a woman who has been given all the information and explored all of her options decides that adoption is best for her and best for her child, then adoption is a wonderful thing.

This x 1000. I'm not going to dive into this thread (for now...who knows, maybe I'll break) because I don't want to lose it and let my emotions take over...which can happen when the adoption topic comes up. I will say that I agree with everything above, though.

[lexiloumarie]

Okay, so they are young adults then? Well an adult is perfectly capable of taking care of themselves. Thus, all those on this board saying that the parents have to care for a minor until they are 18 are way off base. Thanks for the clarification!

I am the one who referred to them as children. Legally they are children...

Until they're not. It's called emancipation of a minor. "Emancipation of minors is a legal mechanism by which a minor is freed from control by his or her parents or guardians, and the parents or guardians are freed from any and all responsibility toward the child"

[emmiedahl]

Until they're not. It's called emancipation of a minor. "Emancipation of minors is a legal mechanism by which a minor is freed from control by his or her parents or guardians, and the parents or guardians are freed from any and all responsibility toward the child"

It says in your link that they need to be able to prove self-sufficiency and that it is in their best interest. I have only known judges to approve emancipation in cases of abuse, so I don't think it is mainstream enough to deserve a huge place in the issue. Also, they are still a minor child--just a minor child that can make decisions for themselves because their parents have proven inadequate.

[Dhani_C]

And to whoever insinuated that by paying the medical costs of a birth mother, only for her to keep the baby is ripping them off - YOU CANNOT BUY A BABY. Period. We considered adoption before IUI, and the first thing the lawyer tells you is that you have to consider that money as gone. It's a gift, and you cannot expect it back or to get anything in return. If that's going to be a problem for you than consider another form of adoption.

I think you may be referring to me. I brought up an experience my mother had (she works in family care) where the teen mother had picked out an adoptive family halfway through the pregnancy and had them pay for everything including her pre-natal care only to take back her child three days after it was born (because her mother, who had been in jail until that point for drug charges, convinced her to keep it and they'd raise it together (father of said child skipped town).

I doubt the couple was thinking about the money after this occurred.