Atheist group urges liberal Catholics to quit the church

[ilovetchotchkes]

What I dont' understand is this:

Wouldn't most liberal Catholics leave for another denomination of Christianity? Like liberal Lutheran or find a liberal Methodist church instead of renouncing all faith in a higher power? I left Catholicism for reform Judaism- I knew I couldn't hack it at being Orthodox. And I believed in G-d, just not in Jesus. ~ my inlaws are so far leaning left they make ME look like Rush Limbaugh and I consider myself VERY liberal and they're Lutherans.

And what convinced me wasn't ultimately a billboard or someone telling me there was no devine power, it was really more a lot of personal introspection and thought.

[ilovetchotchkes]

This. I've been following this thread and trying to come up with an explanation as to why I don't think I could ever NOT consider myself Catholic, and I think Turtle came pretty close to expressing what I want to say with the bolded. I am a Catholic by birth. I am also of Eastern European decent by birth (all my great grandparents came to the US during the big immigration wave at the start of the 20th century). For me, the traditions between my heritage and my religion are so intertwined, I cannot separate them. So many of my family's traditions - oplatky at Christmas, blessing baskets at Easter time - aren't just Eastern European traditions we still follow, they're Eastern European Catholic traditions. For me, Catholicism is just as much a part of my ancestral make-up as the specific countries my great grandparents left behind.

What's interesting too, is in my conversion class to Judaism, 9 out of the ten people planning on converting? were lapsed Catholics. And I get it- there's a lot of ritual and same sort of "its not just a religion its a culture" in Judaism as well as Catholicism. I loved that aspect of Judaism. Ultimately its not the #1 reason why I converted but it was up there- it just felt comfortable even though the rituals were different after being raised Catholic to have it blend culturally in with my life as much as it does.

[Witsec7]

...This. I've been following this thread and trying to come up with an explanation as to why I don't think I could ever NOT consider myself Catholic, and I think Turtle came pretty close to expressing what I want to say with the bolded. I am a Catholic by birth. I am also of Eastern European decent by birth (all my great grandparents came to the US during the big immigration wave at the start of the 20th century). For me, the traditions between my heritage and my religion are so intertwined, I cannot separate them. So many of my family's traditions - oplatky at Christmas, blessing baskets at Easter time - aren't just Eastern European traditions we still follow, they're Eastern European Catholic traditions. For me, Catholicism is just as much a part of my ancestral make-up as the specific countries my great grandparents left behind.

I'm first generation like you. It was not difficult for me to leave a religion that made me 'less than'. I still keep some family traditions from my Eastern European family, as an adult I've had the option of making my own traditions. That doesn't mean that the religious history of my family has been lost, it just means that my tradition best reflects my own values.

[Feberin]

My husband and I are atheist and agnostic yet we sometimes attend church and plan on raising our children Catholic. For us it's mainly for family reasons. My MIL would honestly flip out if we stopped attending church or didn't raise our children to be Catholic. My mother has passed away but I know that she would have wanted me to raise her grandchildren Catholic. It's also just part of the traditions that we've been raised with so not celebrating the holidays or having our babies baptised would seem weird to us. My husband even insists on no meat on Fridays during lent and my husband LOVES meat. All that said we don't give money to the church. I know a decent amount goes to pro-life stuff and other things that I don't agree with so we just don't put any money in the collection plate. We don't attend my MIL's church so she has no idea.

[Boogalou]

My husband and I are atheist and agnostic yet we sometimes attend church and plan on raising our children Catholic. For us it's mainly for family reasons. My MIL would honestly flip out if we stopped attending church or didn't raise our children to be Catholic. My mother has passed away but I know that she would have wanted me to raise her grandchildren Catholic. It's also just part of the traditions that we've been raised with so not celebrating the holidays or having our babies baptised would seem weird to us. My husband even insists on no meat on Fridays during lent and my husband LOVES meat. All that said we don't give money to the church. I know a decent amount goes to pro-life stuff and other things that I don't agree with so we just don't put any money in the collection plate. We don't attend my MIL's church so she has no idea.

You are atheist and agnostic but you are going to get your children baptised in the Catholic church? Am I reading that correctly?

[alaeangelorum]

Like most attempts at proselytizing, this seems patronizing. Most people I know who are nominal or liberal Catholics are very aware of church teaching and are comfortable with their choice to identify as catholic. Being Catholic can be almost as much cultural as religious.

^^ This.

I find the ad insulting and patronising, to be honest - I am perfectly capable of thinking for myself. I think as said above they have totally misjudged their audience here.

I have seen on the internet sometimes the attitude expressed by some atheists that if you don't do everything your religion tells you to do or don't believe in or agree with everything that they do you should not be part of that religion. I feel this is another example of that overly-simplistic viewpoint and for me, it is way more complicated than that. I keep going to church because I have faith - the rules don't make you a Christian, the belief in the first place makes you one... I appreciate that that may seem completely mad to someone who doesn't experience that feeling...

[Guest Anonymous]

I'm sorry, Lissar, I didn't see your question. I'm going into a business meeting right now. I skimmed what you found on Ev. Quakers and it looks pretty accurate as far as our doctrine goes. I will need to read it thoroughly later. Wiki doesn't always get it right.

After you look it over I'd like to know if it's accurate. You also seem to be making a distinction between official doctrine and something else. If the doctrine is anti-choice and anti-gay, do you agree with it?

[SpeshulTaterTot]

This is the thing I don't get. The Catholic church is not a democracy. They don't care that you disagree. They will never change their stance on these issues. You don't get a vote; not even the clergy gets a vote. It's a top-down hierarchy, with no room for individual disagreement. The Vatican makes the rules. No matter what you do, they won't change their mind.

It's not a democracy, but they don't want to lose more members, either. And they already did start changing their mind - There was that statement about condoms being wrong, but since it might save someone from getting infected with HIV, it may be moral. Of course the wording was ridiculous, but still, it was a HUGE step. 20 years ago, I was almost kicked out of Catholic school for daring to mention it was wrong to forbid condoms when whole generations in Africa are dying of AIDS.

Most of my friends are atheists, I'm actually the odd one out for believing that there is a God, so don't think I haven't had discussions like this a million times before. An ad like this isn't going to change my mind about my faith.

[QAF_Rocks]

My husband and I are atheist and agnostic yet we sometimes attend church and plan on raising our children Catholic. For us it's mainly for family reasons. My MIL would honestly flip out if we stopped attending church or didn't raise our children to be Catholic. My mother has passed away but I know that she would have wanted me to raise her grandchildren Catholic. It's also just part of the traditions that we've been raised with so not celebrating the holidays or having our babies baptised would seem weird to us. My husband even insists on no meat on Fridays during lent and my husband LOVES meat. All that said we don't give money to the church. I know a decent amount goes to pro-life stuff and other things that I don't agree with so we just don't put any money in the collection plate. We don't attend my MIL's church so she has no idea.

This is even less understandable to me than liberal Catholics. I can understand not wanting to upset your mother-in-law, but it's your life and your child, not hers. My boyfriend and I are atheists, and his parents are Catholic, but they would never demand that we fake Catholicism for them. They have simply adjusted to the fact that neither my boyfriend nor his sister are Catholic, and that the future and current grandchildren will not be baptized or raised Catholic.

I guess I can understand if someone is truly apathetic about the social or religious issues, but it's hard to imagine it when children are involved, particularly if you believe that they are being taught false or harmful things. What will you do when your child comes home talking about God and Jesus and heaven?

People do all sorts of things nowadays. They have baby welcoming ceremonies that are just like a baptism, except that you don't have to promise to raise your children in the Catholic church. You can still celebrate holidays and traditions without being Catholic, too. Unless you actually like the religious rituals, why not just skip them?

[QAF_Rocks]

It's not a democracy, but they don't want to lose more members, either. And they already did start changing their mind - There was that statement about condoms being wrong, but since it might save someone from getting infected with HIV, it may be moral. Of course the wording was ridiculous, but still, it was a HUGE step. 20 years ago, I was almost kicked out of Catholic school for daring to mention it was wrong to forbid condoms when whole generations in Africa are dying of AIDS.

Most of my friends are atheists, I'm actually the odd one out for believing that there is a God, so don't think I haven't had discussions like this a million times before. An ad like this isn't going to change my mind about my faith.

See, that's where I disagree. They don't want to lose members, but they are not willing to change their dogma to retain members. The Pope's statement did not actually endorse the use of condoms. He simply admitted that it might be a "lesser evil" if a HIV+ prostitute knows that he or she is infected.

http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/12/21/vatican-clarifies-popes-statements-on-condoms

Don't get me wrong, I'd be thrilled if they made significant changes. But they haven't and they aren't going to. What happens is that Catholics in the developed world simply ignore the established doctrine. But ignoring it doesn't make the doctrine go away.

[QAF_Rocks]

I have seen on the internet sometimes the attitude expressed by some atheists that if you don't do everything your religion tells you to do or don't believe in or agree with everything that they do you should not be part of that religion. I feel this is another example of that overly-simplistic viewpoint and for me, it is way more complicated than that. I keep going to church because I have faith - the rules don't make you a Christian, the belief in the first place makes you one... I appreciate that that may seem completely mad to someone who doesn't experience that feeling...

I don't know, I think there's a difference between simply not agreeing with a few minor details, and actively thinking huge swaths of the religion are false or immoral. I mean, if someone doesn't believe in anti-contraception, anti-abortion, anti-gay rights, transubtantiation, the divinity of Jesus, the existence of hell or the devil, etc. what exactly still makes them Catholic? They're repudiating pretty much everything that the Catholic church stands for.

[NurseNell]

I actually find this ad extremely insulting to progressive Catholics.

Edited to add: I've already stopped attending a diocesan church, and I dont give money to the bishop's appeal. I'm already taking public stands on many of the issues mentioned. I don't need FFRF to tell me to do it, thanks. It's the patronizing tone that really grates on me.

Amen. If I'd wanted to leave the Catholic church I'd have done it long ago, don't need FFRF telling me what to do.

[NurseNell]

I'm staying because I think those of us who DO speak up need to stay and try to change things at least a little bit. I thought about leaving the church countless times, but I couldn't get myself to do it. Maybe someday I will, maybe I'll stay Catholic forever, I don't know. What I do know is that right now, I don't want to leave the church to the idiots.

This.

There are parishes here in my city with a large number of gay and lesbian parishioners. Sure, Rome has a policy of being anti-gay but individual parishes and their priests in the U.S. don't. Joan of Arc parish in Minneapolis has at least as many gay and lesbian families as straight members. They do an enormous amount of work in social justice issues. My parish could care less what your sexual orientation is, our big involvement is in working with immigrants. A large number of our parishioners are here undocumented, we don't care. We are all Catholics and support one another. That's why I don't ever intend to leave the Church.

[emmiedahl]

The only way Rome will ever listen is if people stop giving money and stop attending Mass.

They know that most Catholics are on birth control. They know that most Catholics don't give a fuck about who the person next to them in the pew sleeps with. But they persist in being assholes and now want to make their beliefs US law. One thing the Church cares deeply about is attendance and tithing--so the way to make a statement is to hit them where it hurts.

[golden_love]

Lissar,

I don't belong to the Meetings you quoted in your post, so I am not sure if it's accurate. Although, I have never heard of anyone's employment being terminated for "homosexual" behavior the US, it doesn't mean it hasn't happened. I personally am not anti-gay. I am generally for life in regards to abortion, euthanasia, assisted suicide and the death penalty. Also, below is a summary as to how Friends can have views that don't align with their particular meeting/church. And flutterflies is right as far as the English speaking world, Quakers are LGBT and pro-abortion, but necessarily not in the US.

Friends' policy and decision-making

Since Quaker decision making is generally based on seeking "unity" at the level of a Monthly meeting (convened sometimes for business, and more often for worship, and is the basic unit of Quakerism—a meeting is equivalent to a single congregation, sometimes to a parish or group of churches in an area), determining a particular Quaker attitude is difficult on a topic. Monthly meetings are organized into larger groups such as Yearly meetings or other "umbrella" groups, but often these larger groups have conflicting stances on particular issues. Some groups, for example the 57th Street Meeting in Chicago, may have joint membership in umbrella groups that have mutually contradictory stances on the issues. In the end, the true "Quaker view" on homosexuality is probably best analysed meeting by meeting (or, better, Friend by Friend.) Quakers as a whole do not have a specific, set creed.

edited for clarity

[Guest Anonymous]

Lissar,

I don't belong to the Meetings you quoted in your post, so I am not sure if it's accurate. Although, I have never heard of anyone's employment being terminated for "homosexual" behavior the US, it doesn't mean it hasn't happened. I personally am not anti-gay. I am generally for life in regards to abortion, euthanasia, assisted suicide and the death penalty. Also, below is a summary as to how Friends can have views that don't align with their particular meeting/church. And flutterflies is right as far as the English speaking world, Quakers are LGBT and pro-abortion, but necessarily not in the US.

So you believe in equal marriage rights? Why do you put the word homosexual in scare quotes? That has unpleasant connotations and it's not the only time I've seen you do it.

If people are personally anti-abortion, euthanasia, etc. I have no issues whatsoever. If they want legislation to take away reproductive rights then that's a big problem for me. All of the Quakers that I have met (an admittedly small sample) have been quite liberal so conservative Quakerism is outside of my experience.

Friends' policy and decision-making

Since Quaker decision making is generally based on seeking "unity" at the level of a Monthly meeting (convened sometimes for business, and more often for worship, and is the basic unit of Quakerism—a meeting is equivalent to a single congregation, sometimes to a parish or group of churches in an area), determining a particular Quaker attitude is difficult on this or any topic. Monthly meetings are organized into larger groups such as Yearly meetings or other "umbrella" groups, but often these larger groups have conflicting stances on particular issues. Some groups, for example the 57th Street Meeting in Chicago, may have joint membership in umbrella groups that have mutually contradictory stances on the issues. In the end, the true "Quaker view" on homosexuality is probably best analysed meeting by meeting (or, better, Friend by Friend.) Quakers as a whole do not have a specific, set creed.

edited for clarity

Fair enough, but the above seems to really contradict what you said initially, which was:

I am actually a Quaker in the US. I belong to an Evangelical Friends Church or meeting. We are the largest group of Friends in the US and don't share the atheists views at all on social rights. Just thought you would like to know.

It seems that if you know you don't share someone else's views, then you should know what your own are, especially since you made such a definitive statement. (Views for your own specific meeting/sect, not for all the Quakers everywhere.)

[NurseNell]

The only way Rome will ever listen is if people stop giving money and stop attending Mass.

They know that most Catholics are on birth control. They know that most Catholics don't give a fuck about who the person next to them in the pew sleeps with. But they persist in being assholes and now want to make their beliefs US law. One thing the Church cares deeply about is attendance and tithing--so the way to make a statement is to hit them where it hurts.

I have been a Catholic my whole life and I have NEVER heard about tithing from any priest or Catholic. Tithing is not a tenet or practice of the Catholic church. I've had times when I've been able to give money and times when I haven't, I've never been asked why I wasn't giving more, or why I couldn't give anything. It's just not an issue. Our priest growing up routinely helped parishioners, and even non Catholics who were having a hard time. He bought groceries, paid electric bills, paid medical bills. No one ever asked, he did this when he saw the need.

[QAF_Rocks]

I have been a Catholic my whole life and I have NEVER heard about tithing from any priest or Catholic. Tithing is not a tenet or practice of the Catholic church.

But when they pass around the baskets during mass, people are expected to contribute. I suppose someone could go and put nothing in the basket each time, but that's not a common practice.

[NurseNell]

But when they pass around the baskets during mass, people are expected to contribute. I suppose someone could go and put nothing in the basket each time, but that's not a common practice.

Lots of people don't give, depends on the parish. Some people give once/month. The point is the Catholic church doesn't preach tithing.

From Catholic Answers:

Although the Church teaches that offering some form of material support to the Church is obligatory for all Catholic adults who are able to do so, it doesn't specify what percent of one's income should be given. Remember, tithing was an Old Testament obligation that was incumbent on the Jews under the Law of Moses. Christians are dispensed from the obligation of tithing ten percent of their incomes, but not from the obligation to help the Church.....God doesn't demand a fixed amount of money from us; he wants us to give from the heart. If people are forced by their church to give a certain percent of their income, that's extortion. If they give freely and cheerfully the amount they are able, that's a gift.

[Feberin]

This is even less understandable to me than liberal Catholics. I can understand not wanting to upset your mother-in-law, but it's your life and your child, not hers. My boyfriend and I are atheists, and his parents are Catholic, but they would never demand that we fake Catholicism for them. They have simply adjusted to the fact that neither my boyfriend nor his sister are Catholic, and that the future and current grandchildren will not be baptized or raised Catholic.

I guess I can understand if someone is truly apathetic about the social or religious issues, but it's hard to imagine it when children are involved, particularly if you believe that they are being taught false or harmful things. What will you do when your child comes home talking about God and Jesus and heaven?

People do all sorts of things nowadays. They have baby welcoming ceremonies that are just like a baptism, except that you don't have to promise to raise your children in the Catholic church. You can still celebrate holidays and traditions without being Catholic, too. Unless you actually like the religious rituals, why not just skip them?

I'm aware that it doesn't make a lot of sense but it's what makes life easiest and happiest for us since family is important to us. My MIL isn't just somewhat Catholic she's a attend church every day and be best friends with priests and nuns sort of Catholic. Sometimes she attends multiple masses a day. She wouldn't just get angry if we said we weren't going to baptise our child it would probably take YEARS of not seeing much of her before she would be civil to us. My father is great but not heavily involved in his grandchild's life because he's busy with work and likes to travel with my stepmother. I'm not going to deprive my child of grandparents purely because I don't believe in a religion. My MIL knows that I don't believe in it but can make peace with that as long as I raise my children Catholic. I am prepared and expect our children to talk about God and Jesus. I will try to keep them to have an open mind and as they get older encourage them to decide for themselves what they want to believe in at that point. We're also doing public not Catholic schools and I'm hoping to do a "homeschool Sunday school" thing that my church offers so I will have control over what they are taught.

[QAF_Rocks]

I'm aware that it doesn't make a lot of sense but it's what makes life easiest and happiest for us since family is important to us. My MIL isn't just somewhat Catholic she's a attend church every day and be best friends with priests and nuns sort of Catholic. Sometimes she attends multiple masses a day. She wouldn't just get angry if we said we weren't going to baptise our child it would probably take YEARS of not seeing much of her before she would be civil to us. My father is great but not heavily involved in his grandchild's life because he's busy with work and likes to travel with my stepmother. I'm not going to deprive my child of grandparents purely because I don't believe in a religion. My MIL knows that I don't believe in it but can make peace with that as long as I raise my children Catholic. I am prepared and expect our children to talk about God and Jesus. I will try to keep them to have an open mind and as they get older encourage them to decide for themselves what they want to believe in at that point. We're also doing public not Catholic schools and I'm hoping to do a "homeschool Sunday school" thing that my church offers so I will have control over what they are taught.

You are far more tolerant than I! If I were in that situation, the mother-in-law would have to learn to deal or else not see her grandchildren. I have never heard of Catholics doing homeschool CCD, but at least it sounds like you'll have a measure of control over what they are taught that way. Although I wonder if they will still require the children to show up for formal instruction for First Communion. What will you do if your children buy into Catholicism hook, line, and sinker? Or alternately, what will you say if your teenagers refuse to do Confirmation to placate their grandmother?

[QAF_Rocks]

Lots of people don't give, depends on the parish. Some people give once/month. The point is the Catholic church doesn't preach tithing.

All right, I'm just going by what I've observed. Most Catholics who attend mass do give money to the church at least sometimes, if not most of the time. And of course people who send their children to parochial schools contribute money that way. Is CCD free, or is there a fee for that?

[emmiedahl]

I have been a Catholic my whole life and I have NEVER heard about tithing from any priest or Catholic. Tithing is not a tenet or practice of the Catholic church.

Catholics are required to give this money by Section 222 of the Code of Canon Law: “The Christian faithful are obliged to assist with the needs of the Church." You can bet that if the faithful stop supporting the church in oppressing others, the church will stop oppressing.

My husband was told by a RCC counselor after being served divorce papers and losing his job in the same week that his personal and financial difficulties would clear up if he gave his fair ten percent to the Catholic church. Not all churches do this, but all pass around a basket that most parishioners add to, as well as several special collections and appeals throughout the year.

[Feberin]

You are far more tolerant than I! If I were in that situation, the mother-in-law would have to learn to deal or else not see her grandchildren. I have never heard of Catholics doing homeschool CCD, but at least it sounds like you'll have a measure of control over what they are taught that way. Although I wonder if they will still require the children to show up for formal instruction for First Communion. What will you do if your children buy into Catholicism hook, line, and sinker? Or alternately, what will you say if your teenagers refuse to do Confirmation to placate their grandmother?

If they buy into or even if we end up raising a priest or a nun I'll try to remember that no matter how you raise your children they may not share your beliefs and focus on the good parts of religion such as helping people cope with life. I am fine with having Catholic children. Many of the people I love are Catholic and it doesn't change how I feel about them. I'm not sure what I will do if they refuse nor am I sure of all the requirements for at home CCD. My son is only two. The way I see things while they are young is that I don't believe in Santa Claus either but that doesn't stop me from treating Santa like he is real when dealing with my son. Why should God be any different? my MIL and I disagree on almost every child rearing decision and most of the time like with spanking, breast feeding, not circumcising and healthy eating I stick to what I believe in and expect her to deal. But I don't view Catholism as something that will hurt my son just something that I don't believe in and something that is of the utmost importance to my MIL.

[NurseNell]

All right, I'm just going by what I've observed. Most Catholics who attend mass do give money to the church at least sometimes, if not most of the time. And of course people who send their children to parochial schools contribute money that way. Is CCD free, or is there a fee for that?

Yes, most do give. Some give once a month. I've skipped the basket many a time, no one judges you or says anything. Sometimes people forget their ebvelopes. The original question stated Catholics tithe. That is not a teaching of the Catholic church. Most Catholics do not tithe.

Parish Catholic schools have 2 tuition rates, one for parishioners, one for non-parishioners. Every parish with a school subsidizes the school to some extent. My kids went to a parish school that I felt was better than our parish school but I liked our parish church better. So I paid a higher tuition rate and still gave as I could at our parish. But I gave a lot of time to our parish, serving on various committees and doing things for the parish.

Some parishes charge for CCD, some do not. My grand daughter is currently getting ready for First Communion. Class materials were $25 but if a family can't afford to pay they still get the materials. CCD itself is free at their parish. It's free at my parish but almost everyone with kids send them to the parish school.