Atheist group urges liberal Catholics to quit the church

[golden_love]

The idea that only non-theists are in the right on gay rights/equal marriage/women's rights/abortion and reproductive rights/embryonic stem cell research etc is really odd. Has this organization never heard of Quakers, Reform Jews, the UU church or liberal Episcopalians? Non-theists don't have a monopoly on liberalism. A similar ad encouraging people to leave the Catholic church because of the bad stuff (and there is a lot of bad stuff) without trying to get them to become non-theists (because apparently not wanting child abuse to be covered up means you have to not believe in God, wtf) would be far more effective. This is very badly done.

I am actually a Quaker in the US. I belong to an Evangelical Friends Church or meeting. We are the largest group of Friends in the US and don't share the atheists views at all on social rights. Just thought you would like to know.

[DistantStar]

I have a lot in common with atheists. I have no problems with atheists. But I have yet to see any atheist ad campaign that didn't come off as insulting to their intended audience either. Do they really think everybody with any belief in God/divinity (in this case, liberal Catholics in particular) blindly believes and never asks questions and all they need is their little safe bubble to be popped and *bing* they will just up and leave? "Honey, the church is dead wrong on these social issues. Screw God, I'm an atheist now!" I'm sure that happens to some people, but I suspect it's a lot more complicated for many.

I also have yet to see any openly religious ad campaign that is anything else for their intended audience either. "Hon, what's this...John 3:16 thing on that billboard over there? I know I grew up in Georgia but I have no idea!"

I don't think proselytizing through ads is going to make anybody look good.

[Boogalou]

I am actually a Quaker in the US. I belong to an Evangelical Friends Church or meeting. We are the largest group of Friends in the US and don't share the atheists views at all on social rights. Just thought you would like to know.

I'd love to know what "the athesits" views on social rights are. I must have missed that memo.

[Guest Anonymous]

I am actually a Quaker in the US. I belong to an Evangelical Friends Church or meeting. We are the largest group of Friends in the US and don't share the atheists views at all on social rights. Just thought you would like to know.

What are "the atheists' views" on social rights? What are the Evangelical Friends' views (your congregation's, at least) on social rights?

**ETA: What Boogalou said, plus another question.

[Boltingmadonna]

It doesn't seem to occur to anyone that one might have deep spiritual and cultural reasons to identify as Catholic and isn't going to give it up, no matter how much they might disapprove of some things?

During my 50+ years as a Catholic, I would probably have said the same thing. Now it looks different to me. By staying in the Church, people who like those "spiritual and cultural reasons" are tacitly consenting to the abuse of other people, and that's not acceptable to me any more.

Catholic leaders spend millions to deprive gay people of equal rights, and your contributions support them. That's not okay with me. Catholic leaders spend millions to intimidate and demonize victims of sexual abuse, and your contributions support them. That's not okay with me. Catholic leaders spend millions to deprive women of reproductive rights, and to demand policies that allow millions more to die of AIDS. That's not okay with me.

Catholic leaders have thrown in their lot with right-wing politicians pretty much all over the world. By continuing to be a Catholic, you allow them to point to their numbers and tell politicians, "Look how many people we have in our voting bloc!" By staying in their church, you are supporting their policies and making them powerful whether you privately disagree with them or not.

To me, staying in the Church because it's comfortable for you personally is like someone who says "I like pretty uniforms and marching music, so as long as there are parades, I don't care how many civilians get bombed and murdered in an unjust war--I'll still be there, voting for bigger armies."

[Turtle]

I do agree that the ad seems patronizing. However, I don't understand how someone could hold polar opposite views from the Church on so many things, but still identify as Catholic. That's just my perspective though. If I were part of a group that was so vocal about things I vehemently disagree with, I would hesitate to associate myself with that group, culture or not.

I agree with you, personally I wouldn't want to be associated with an organization I disagree with on so many issues. But from a cultural standpoint, I think disassociating one's self from the Catholic church is more difficult than leaving a particular Protestant denomination.

Maybe the ad will make some people think twice, but for the most part I see it as similar to billboards with John 3:16 or Jesus loves you or something like that...not really saying anything that everyone doesn't already know and therefore not too effective. And just like not all religious people agree on these issues, not all atheists believe the same thing either. I know "pro-life" atheists and "pro-choice" Catholics...

[slickcat79]

I agree with you, personally I wouldn't want to be associated with an organization I disagree with on so many issues. But from a cultural standpoint, I think disassociating one's self from the Catholic church is more difficult than leaving a particular Protestant denomination.

Why?

(Not being confrontational, just curious)

[golden_love]

I am actually a Quaker in the US. I belong to an Evangelical Friends Church or meeting. We are the largest group of Friends in the US and don't share the atheists views at all on social rights. Just thought you would like to know.

I'm sorry I didn't mean to imply that the bolded list is what all non-theists and atheists believe. Obviously, there is a lot of diversity in those groups.

[SpeshulTaterTot]

I do agree that the ad seems patronizing. However, I don't understand how someone could hold polar opposite views from the Church on so many things, but still identify as Catholic. That's just my perspective though. If I were part of a group that was so vocal about things I vehemently disagree with, I would hesitate to associate myself with that group, culture or not.

I'm staying because I think those of us who DO speak up need to stay and try to change things at least a little bit. I thought about leaving the church countless times, but I couldn't get myself to do it. Maybe someday I will, maybe I'll stay Catholic forever, I don't know. What I do know is that right now, I don't want to leave the church to the idiots.

[fluttershies]

I'm sorry I didn't mean to imply that the bolded list is what all non-theists and atheists believe. Obviously, there is a lot of diversity in those groups.

Quakers are known for being liberal on LGBTQ rights/equal marriage/abortion etc, is what I meant. Obviously there is diversity of opinion on those subjects, but the majority of Quakers are liberal on issues like that.

[fluttershies]

Why?

(Not being confrontational, just curious)

Catholics are considered to be still Catholic even if they leave (according to Catholic doctrine), which is why they get called 'lapsed' Catholics as opposed to 'former' Catholics (unless one was excommunicated).

[Guest Anonymous]

I am actually a Quaker in the US. I belong to an Evangelical Friends Church or meeting. We are the largest group of Friends in the US and don't share the atheists views at all on social rights. Just thought you would like to know.

Since you didn't answer the question (what is your EFC view on social rights?) I went looking for it myself. I had to go to Wikipedia, but needs must. Is this an accurate representation of your beliefs?

On the other hand, Friends associated with Friends United Meeting (FUM) and Evangelical Friends International (EFI), which represent mostly programmed Quaker meetings, and thus the majority of American Friends, have taken stands condemning gay marriage and, in some cases, homosexual relationships altogether. Indiana and Western Yearly Meetings (members of FUM) issued a statement of "core values" which includes both an insistence on abstinence outside of marriage, and a definition of marriage to heterosexual relationships only. Evangelical Friends Church Southwest, a yearly meeting and a member of EFI, states in its Faith and Practice that homosexuality is a sin and grounds for termination of employment in the church.

I found a Mid-America EFC and a Southwest one. They are both anti-choice but the Southwest seems to take a harder line position.

Evangelical Friends Church - Mid-America (EFI)

10. Abortion. Friends believe that all life is a gift of God (Genesis 2:7; Job 33:4); therefore, when the matter of an abortion is being considered, neither the life of the mother nor of the unborn child is to be lightly treated. We hold that abortion on demand or for reasons of personal convenience, social adjustment, or economic advantage is morally wrong.

We believe it may be employed therapeutically to safeguard the health or life of the mother, but only after spiritual, medical, and psychological counseling have been obtained.

Friends believe an appropriate and morally acceptable alternative to abortion is to arrange for immediate adoption upon birth. They believe that married couples have the right to exercise their preferences as to means of preventing or avoiding conception.

[Faith and Practice, Evangelical Friends Church – Mid-America

Evangelical Friends Church Southwest (EFI)

Abortion and Euthanasia/Assisted Suicide

We believe that all human life is a gift from God. We believe that Scriptures teach and common observation confirms that life begins at conception. God is as intimately concerned with the person inside the womb as with the person outside the womb. Moreover, we believe, with the Scriptures, that one's life is never entirely one's own. We belong to God, first of all, but in a very real way, we also belong to one another. As a consequence of this, we oppose the practices of abortion, euthanasia and assisted suicide.

An abortion infringes the very principle of life, violating the love through which God creates and nurtures human life. It asserts an individual's choice over the life of the child, and denies the child's place in the community.

Euthanasia and assisted suicide have the appearance of compassion, but at their heart, these practices violate the basic principle of life. Any judgment about the potentiality or quality of one life is a diminishment of all life. We recognize that human suffering can be very real at the end of life, but we also affirm that God's presence is just as real.

We believe our best answer to abortion and euthanasia is to value life profoundly and to embody Christ's love completely in our communities, especially towards those who have undergone an abortion or have been part of an assisted suicide. We recognize that these sinful choices are frequently made under great stress and confusion. We realize as well, that while we must speak clearly against these practices, we must just as clearly proclaim God's love and the availability of forgiveness to those who have done them.

[Evangelical Friends Church Southwest Faith and Practice, p. 14]

I was unable to find any information in regards to the other listed issue, stem cell research.

Quakers are known for being liberal on LGBTQ rights/equal marriage/abortion etc, is what I meant. Obviously there is diversity of opinion on those subjects, but the majority of Quakers are liberal on issues like that.

golden_love will have to speak for themselves but it's not looking like they're a liberal Quaker if they follow the party line of their stated denomination. I wonder why the questions on the subject went unanswered? Especially after the point was made that the EFC does *not* agree with "the atheists' views" at all on social justice issues.

**Edited to bold pertinent information for ease of location.

[golden_love]

Quakers are known for being liberal on LGBTQ rights/equal marriage/abortion etc, is what I meant. Obviously there is diversity of opinion on those subjects, but the majority of Quakers are liberal on issues like that.

The reason I said anything about Quakers is because the liberals are a very small part of our society, but for some reason most people think Quakers are liberal which is not true. Most are conservative and more in line with conservative Christians but not fundamentalism. Historically, many Quakers did some very bizarre things to try to get the Puritans attention for needed reform by appearing nude in the Puritans worship services. Anyway, I just wanted to clear that up.

[golden_love]

Since you didn't answer the question (what is your EFC view on social rights?) I went looking for it myself. I had to go to Wikipedia, but needs must. Is this an accurate representation of your beliefs?

I found a Mid-America EFC and a Southwest one. They are both anti-choice but the Southwest seems to take a harder line position.

I was unable to find any information in regards to the other listed issue, stem cell research.

golden_love will have to speak for themselves but it's not looking like they're a liberal Quaker if they follow the party line of their stated denomination. I wonder why the questions on the subject went unanswered? Especially after the point was made that the EFC does *not* agree with "the atheists' views" at all on social justice issues.

**Edited to bold pertinent information for ease of location.

I'm sorry, Lissar, I didn't see your question. I'm going into a business meeting right now. I skimmed what you found on Ev. Quakers and it looks pretty accurate as far as our doctrine goes. I will need to read it thoroughly later. Wiki doesn't always get it right.

[QAF_Rocks]

Catholics are considered to be still Catholic even if they leave (according to Catholic doctrine), which is why they get called 'lapsed' Catholics as opposed to 'former' Catholics (unless one was excommunicated).

True, but I think it goes deeper than that to the people themselves. Catholicism started off as a minority religious identity in the United States and faced a lot of prejudice/harassment. There's a cultural element to being Catholic that doesn't seem to be there in Protestant denominations. My biological mother still calls herself Catholic even though she's a lesbian who has not practiced in over 40 years and doesn't believe any of the required theology. In her mind, she was born Catholic, so she's still Catholic today. She's not really the target of the ad, though, because she doesn't attend or give financial support to the church.

[emmiedahl]

My husband is Catholic and questioning. It is a really difficult situation and he does not feel comfortable with the UU as a compromise. Although he is more conservative than me, he has a really hard time with small bits of dogma that have been made the entire focus of the RCC in recent times. He is just not a fighter, but he has not been to Mass in several years and stopped giving financially even before that. Part of it is an issue with the theology of Jesus, but I think he would keep going if not for that. Despite his problems with the church, he will not become an atheist, I just cannot see it happening. He identifies as Catholic, an Italian Catholic at that. It is a huge part of his culture and his worldview.

The people ARE the Catholic Church. You guys who never miss a Sunday mass or a holiday, you ARE more important than the Bishops. You are their employers. The only way to sway them is to take your butt out of that seat and keep it out until the RCC agrees to stay out of public policy. It's hard, but if Catholics stop filling churches and church coffers, you can bet that the Church will listen.

[QAF_Rocks]

I'm staying because I think those of us who DO speak up need to stay and try to change things at least a little bit. I thought about leaving the church countless times, but I couldn't get myself to do it. Maybe someday I will, maybe I'll stay Catholic forever, I don't know. What I do know is that right now, I don't want to leave the church to the idiots.

This is the thing I don't get. The Catholic church is not a democracy. They don't care that you disagree. They will never change their stance on these issues. You don't get a vote; not even the clergy gets a vote. It's a top-down hierarchy, with no room for individual disagreement. The Vatican makes the rules. No matter what you do, they won't change their mind.

[B5SnowDog]

If atheists are ever going to convince religious people to join our side, we need to get them to actually think about the supernatural, not simply point out the things that religion is doing wrong.

The question I have is why do we need to convince anyone to join our side (assuming you mean become atheists). I couldn't care less if I'm the only atheist in a room as long as I'm treated with respect. One of the first thoughts that popped into my head when I left Christianity was, "I don't have to evangelize any more? Sweet!"

[QAF_Rocks]

I have a lot in common with atheists. I have no problems with atheists. But I have yet to see any atheist ad campaign that didn't come off as insulting to their intended audience either.

I have seen some good atheist ad campaigns, but they are targeted towards closeted atheists instead of believers, like the Coalition of Reason's "Don't Believe in God? You're Not Alone/Join the Club" billboards. Even some of the FFRF billboards are much better than this, especially their "Out of the Closet" campaign. Those are aimed at believers, but they're more focused on lessening the stigma of atheism than trying to get people to become atheists.

As far as billboards trying to convince people to question supernaturalism, I think it can be done, but it's much harder. There are few people who are going to question their belief in a deity based on what they see on a billboard, no matter how it's worded.

[QAF_Rocks]

The question I have is why do we need to convince anyone to join our side (assuming you mean become atheists). I couldn't care less if I'm the only atheist in a room as long as I'm treated with respect. One of the first thoughts that popped into my head when I left Christianity was, "I don't have to evangelize any more? Sweet!"

We certainly don't have to. Not all atheists agree on this issue. I personally would love to see a world without supernaturalism because, even when it it completely benign (and it rarely is), I still believe that it's factually wrong.

Proselytizing/evangelism is not my style, but I am happy to see atheism attain a more prominent place in the marketplace of ideas. There are books, there are websites, so there are ways for people to investigate atheism if they are interested. I'm not sure that billboards or newspaper ads are an effective way to get people to question their belief in deities, though.

[Turtle]

Catholic identity is so strong because there is such a communal, ritualistic aspect that would go away if you left the Catholic church. Especially when the holidays/celebrations are as much a link to their nationality as to the Catholic church. If you switch between Baptist and Church of Christ because you move to a new town and like the preacher better, you don't lose that much.

And I disagree that the Catholic church will change if the people demand change. If the majority of a Baptist congregation doesn't like the teaching of the preacher, they can go to another church and the preacher is out of work. The structure of the Catholic church means the priest doesn't have to worry about employment/keeping his family fed. That's why most Protestant denominations now have no problem with birth control and the official Catholic church teaching is still anti-contraception, even though most women of both religious affiliations do use birth control.

[fluttershies]

The reason I said anything about Quakers is because the liberals are a very small part of our society, but for some reason most people think Quakers are liberal which is not true. Most are conservative and more in line with conservative Christians but not fundamentalism. Historically, many Quakers did some very bizarre things to try to get the Puritans attention for needed reform by appearing nude in the Puritans worship services. Anyway, I just wanted to clear that up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quakers#Liberal

It would seem like liberalism is the position of most of the official Quaker bodies of English-speaking countries.

[Esther]

You know, normally this would offend me because militant atheism gets annoying, but as a Belgian who grew up nominally Catholic in a family where at least three generations had been Catholic in name only, I agree with this. It is time for people who are only Catholic "by birth" and who go to church once a year if at all (the majority of Catholics in my country - it was a huge shock to me to find out that anyone under 70 actually went to church regularly in America) to officially leave the Church of Rome to its own devices. These people do not believe in any tenet Rome considers crucial and as long as the Catholic Church is able to count on the silent inaction of thousands of supposed adherents, it is gonna remain a whole lot more powerful than it should be.

So yeah. I don't mind this. My parents never go to church anymore, but even my grandparents have considered not going anymore. Not sure if they're gonna do it, but as my grandma says, they only go because that's what they've always done, anyway. They are disgusted at the actions of the church of Rome and its homophobic, pro-life, misogynist, oppressive ideas.

Please note: I know many people who identify as Catholic are fine people completely unlike the old boys' club in Rome. I am not saying these people should just leave religion altogether. But something needs to happen, because Rome is puke-worthy by this point.

[B5SnowDog]

I'm not sure that billboards or newspaper ads are an effective way to get people to question their belief in deities, though.

I agree with you. It took more than that for me to examine the beliefs I was raised with. Billboards are fine for informing people about new restaurants but I think you need something more convincing to change minds.

[Nothing2CHere]

Catholic identity is so strong because there is such a communal, ritualistic aspect that would go away if you left the Catholic church. Especially when the holidays/celebrations are as much a link to their nationality as to the Catholic church. If you switch between Baptist and Church of Christ because you move to a new town and like the preacher better, you don't lose that much.

This. I've been following this thread and trying to come up with an explanation as to why I don't think I could ever NOT consider myself Catholic, and I think Turtle came pretty close to expressing what I want to say with the bolded. I am a Catholic by birth. I am also of Eastern European decent by birth (all my great grandparents came to the US during the big immigration wave at the start of the 20th century). For me, the traditions between my heritage and my religion are so intertwined, I cannot separate them. So many of my family's traditions - oplatky at Christmas, blessing baskets at Easter time - aren't just Eastern European traditions we still follow, they're Eastern European Catholic traditions. For me, Catholicism is just as much a part of my ancestral make-up as the specific countries my great grandparents left behind.