Atheist group urges liberal Catholics to quit the church

[theologygeek]

Catholic identity is so strong because there is such a communal, ritualistic aspect that would go away if you left the Catholic church.

That's not why I call myself Catholic, but then again, I'm a freak Christian. No matter what denomination church I attend, I feel like I don't belong. My beliefs align more with Catholic doctrine than any other religion, but there are some things that I don't agree with. I can't be Protestant because I don't believe in sola fide. I'm not comfortable in Catholic church because I don't agree with the actions of those who run it. Maybe I'll start my own religion. The Church of Theologygeek.

[NurseNell]

My husband was told by a RCC counselor after being served divorce papers and losing his job in the same week that his personal and financial difficulties would clear up if he gave his fair ten percent to the Catholic church. Not all churches do this, but all pass around a basket that most parishioners add to, as well as several special collections and appeals throughout the year.

That was an individual's opinion. Tithing is NOT a teaching of the Catholic Church. I'm familiar with canon law, and canon law section 222 says:

Christ's faithful have the obligation to provide for the needs of the Church, so that the Church has available to it those things which are necessary for divine worship, for apostolic and charitable work and for the worthy support of its ministers.

It does NOT mention tithing because tithing is not part of Catholic teaching. And it doesn't even say money because those who do not have money can also give of time and talent. I have belonged to the Church for 67 years. I've always been an active church member. I have donated a lot of time and talent, and there have been times when I've donated money and times when I cannot. A collection is taken at every Mass, as also happens at Lutheran and Methodist churches I've visited. Members of the parish have envelopes, visitors put in cash IF they want to. Some members also choose to make one donation a month. I know one very good Catholic, very faithful, who writes out one large check per year instead of giving weekly. It is OK to not put anything in the basket. But tithing, no, not expected, not part of Catholic theology.

[Witsec7]

The RCC church of my youth had 'pledge drives'. I swear it was worse than fundraising week on NPR. They would have a drive for a new statue, car for the priest, roof for the convent, to bring some Franciscans in for a novena, it was never ending. And working class guys like my dad would have 3 or four pledge envelopes for the basket every sunday. For the major building drives they would have folks come to our home and sit my parents down to figure how much they would pledge.

[slickcat79]

I've skipped the basket many a time, no one judges you or says anything. Sometimes people forget their ebvelopes. The original question stated Catholics tithe. That is not a teaching of the Catholic church. Most Catholics do not tithe.

The fact that you even have individualized envelopes means that someone is expecting you to give money; the canon law that you quoted even says so. I think making a distinction between "tithing" and "donations" is splitting a pretty fine hair. Yes, tithing generally refers to 10% of an income while donations may be a lot less, but in the modern era they're basically the same thing because institutionalized tithing is much less common. I think it's disingenuous to act like the catholic church is fine with its members never giving money just because they're not expected to tithe. Soliciting donations is common of all chrisitan denominations, and I've never been to a church service where they didn't pass a basket around.

[MonkeyMomma]

I may be hopelessly naive, but my impression was always that the envelopes (which usually also include an external ID number) helped facilitate tax receipts at the end of the year.

[Boltingmadonna]

Yeah, it's true that Catholics don't teach "tithing" as ten percent off the top the way Mormons and some Protestant fundies do. And it's true that some people just don't give anything. However, in my experience they do ask for money, quite a lot. You can go to communion or confession anywhere. But to get your child baptized, have a wedding or funeral, or send your child to religious education or the Catholic school, you pretty much have to be officially registered in a parish. Once you do that, they will send you personalized envelopes each month, and they will include you in their "Stewardship Campaign" which is basically the pledge drive. And if they have to build a new church, they will have an extra special pledge drive for the building fund. I know these things because we did them all, in several parishes around the country. It may not be true for all parishes, but it was for all the ones we attended. If you want to send your kid to the Catholic school, you are required to give money regularly. It doesn't have to be a lot, but you do have to give.

After we stopped going to Mass, not one person called to see if we were okay, or why we weren't there. Not one. Certainly not the priest. However, it's been maybe five years now, and we've moved out of state, but they're still sending us our envelopes each month. We've called the parish office and asked them to stop, but they're still doing it. We told them we don't even live there anymore, but it doesn't seem to be making an impression. I don't think the Catholic Church is ALL about the money, but they definitely care about money and ask for money.

[longskirtlotsakids]

c. Tithing is not a tenet or practice of the Catholic church. I've had times when I've been able to give money and times when I haven't, I've never been asked why I wasn't giving more, or why I couldn't give anything. It's just not an issue. Our priest growing up routinely helped parishioners, and even non Catholics who were having a hard time. He bought groceries, paid electric bills, paid medical bills. No one ever asked, he did this when he saw the need.

For real? In the Catholic churches I have been in, tithing is a major component. The top ten tithers of the week were published in the church bulletin. If you didn't tithe, you were asked if you needed any help becuase it was assumed you lost a job or something. However, I want to throw in that the WELS churches here- the Lutheran Wisconsin SYnod- are just as vicious. THe Missouri synod seems cooler.

[SpeshulTaterTot]

Are the envelopes an American thing? I've never seen them in Germany, and I've been to many, many Catholic churches. Of course the basket gets passed around, but that's happened in every church I've been to, Catholic or not. You throw in whatever you want and at the end of the day, nobody knows if you threw in a 50 cent coin or a 20€ bill.

[Cran]

But then, the situation in Germany is quite different. The members of the main churches (Catholic and Protestant) pay "church taxes", the state deducts it from their income and gives it to the churches, so the weekly collection is only one source of income. The main reason why the German part of the RCC is considered so important (we have so many Cardinals in relation to the number of Catholics, it is nearly unreal).

I have been mailed by my parish tough, to contribute to special causes like restoration projects etc., but not frequently, and during lent and other important feasts, there are little money bags provided at church, so you can give discretely.

[SpeshulTaterTot]

But then, the situation in Germany is quite different. The members of the main churches (Catholic and Protestant) pay "church taxes", the state deducts it from their income and gives it to the churches, so the weekly collection is only one source of income. The main reason why the German part of the RCC is considered so important (we have so many Cardinals in relation to the number of Catholics, it is nearly unreal).

I have been mailed by my parish tough, to contribute to special causes like restoration projects etc., but not frequently, and during lent and other important feasts, there are little money bags provided at church, so you can give discretely.

The church tax is a strange, strange thing, but like you said, it's not just the RCC that gets money out of that.

I think I've only been mailed by my parish once right after I moved, but that probably depends on the parish.

[QAF_Rocks]

If they buy into or even if we end up raising a priest or a nun I'll try to remember that no matter how you raise your children they may not share your beliefs and focus on the good parts of religion such as helping people cope with life. I am fine with having Catholic children. Many of the people I love are Catholic and it doesn't change how I feel about them. I'm not sure what I will do if they refuse nor am I sure of all the requirements for at home CCD. My son is only two. The way I see things while they are young is that I don't believe in Santa Claus either but that doesn't stop me from treating Santa like he is real when dealing with my son. Why should God be any different? my MIL and I disagree on almost every child rearing decision and most of the time like with spanking, breast feeding, not circumcising and healthy eating I stick to what I believe in and expect her to deal. But I don't view Catholism as something that will hurt my son just something that I don't believe in and something that is of the utmost importance to my MIL.

I think that if you don't mind having Catholic children, then it's a sensible compromise, at least to keep the peace in the family. And of course, you could always tell MIL you're doing homeschool CCD and then not actually do it, or make it into a comparative religions course instead. ;)

[QAF_Rocks]

After we stopped going to Mass, not one person called to see if we were okay, or why we weren't there. Not one. Certainly not the priest. However, it's been maybe five years now, and we've moved out of state, but they're still sending us our envelopes each month. We've called the parish office and asked them to stop, but they're still doing it. We told them we don't even live there anymore, but it doesn't seem to be making an impression. I don't think the Catholic Church is ALL about the money, but they definitely care about money and ask for money.

That's one thing that confuses me about the Catholic church. I know many people go to church for community, but it seems like the Catholic church isn't really a place that one goes to for socialization. It's not personalized. You just show up for mass, and then everyone leaves at the end of the services and rushes to their cars. As a stranger, I've been to several masses and no one has ever even said "hello" or looked at me twice. When my boyfriend was young, his family attended mass, but all of their relationships and friendships came through people they met at the parish school, not at the church. His family was involved with the school activities, but not the church ones. My boyfriend doesn't even know if there were organized church activities or not.

[margiebargie]

I dunno. I think if the FFRF's ad shakes some people out of their complacency that's a good thing. Let's face it - the Catholic church is corrupt and out of touch. I dropped out when the child abuse scandal hit. I was just so horrified. Then I went to a fundie-lite church which encouraged me to read the Bible which turned me into an atheist. I've never been happier. So I guess I owe fundies a "thank you". [btw, this was all a lot more gradual than I'm making it sound.]

There are people I know and love who are still Catholic. I don't understand how they can, in good conscience, continue to stand by the church. I've heard the excuses: "Oh its a cultural thing." "I like the rituals." "I like being part of a spiritual community." "I want to make my mom happy." "That stuff doesn't happen in my church." I just don't see how this stacks up against rampant child abuse and a massive cover up complete with victim blaming. The absurd stance on birth control, especially condoms is also harmful, of course. And let's not forget the complete hypocrisy over homosexuality.

[Cran]

Admitted, he church handled the abuse scandal in a horrific way and it happens way too often.

But sorry, I am sick of this church-blaming. Yes, it is terrible, the most terrible thing short of murder an adult can do to a child - but MOST ABUSE HAPPENS IN FAMILIES.

That doesn't mean we all cut ties with our families, does it?

[Boogalou]

Admitted, he church handled the abuse scandal in a horrific way and it happens way too often.

But sorry, I am sick of this church-blaming. Yes, it is terrible, the most terrible thing short of murder an adult can do to a child - but MOST ABUSE HAPPENS IN FAMILIES.

That doesn't mean we all cut ties with our families, does it?

If someone in my family molested a child I most definitely would cut ties with them.

[Boltingmadonna]

But sorry, I am sick of this church-blaming. Yes, it is terrible, the most terrible thing short of murder an adult can do to a child - but MOST ABUSE HAPPENS IN FAMILIES.

That doesn't mean we all cut ties with our families, does it?

Uh--what?? Agree with Margiebargie--if someone in my family abused a child, you betcha I'd cut ties with them. Right after I called the police. If, for example, my uncle abused my sister and then my grandfather paid for my uncle to leave town so he couldn't be arrested, I'd cut ties with both of them. And that is exactly the position the bishops are in with regard to the abusing priests. Well, except for the bishops who were abusers themselves, of which there have been several--and they've never been prosecuted either.

If you think people and organizations shouldn't be blamed for the bad things they have actually done, then I'm not sure what you're doing on this board.

[Cran]

I do not mean cutting ties with a specific member of a family who has committed the crime, but mean that we do not, in advance, cut ties with all family members because abuse could happen.

I do not think the church should not be hold responsible for her way dealing with abuse, nor should those who commit abuse go without punishment, but saying "the church horrifies me because priests commit abuse" is no different than "families horrify me because family members commit abuse". Families do not commit abuse and the church does not commit abuse, but individual members. That was the only point I wanted to make.

And, boltingmadonna, just FYI, people with different opinions are welcome on this board.

[ilovetchotchkes]

That's one thing that confuses me about the Catholic church. I know many people go to church for community, but it seems like the Catholic church isn't really a place that one goes to for socialization. It's not personalized. You just show up for mass, and then everyone leaves at the end of the services and rushes to their cars. As a stranger, I've been to several masses and no one has ever even said "hello" or looked at me twice. When my boyfriend was young, his family attended mass, but all of their relationships and friendships came through people they met at the parish school, not at the church. His family was involved with the school activities, but not the church ones. My boyfriend doesn't even know if there were organized church activities or not.

^^^^

This.

Once a MONTH there was a "donut" day after the 11 o'clock mass. It was a real shock I tell you, to go from a situation like that, to my Jewish shul where after the service we all hang around eating bread and pastries, tea and coffee. There was no sense of community with Catholicism for me (no offense any FJ Catholics) and yes, i know you can volunteer for stuff, but it just seems... so impersonal.

[Boogalou]

I do not mean cutting ties with a specific member of a family who has committed the crime, but mean that we do not, in advance, cut ties with all family members because abuse could happen.

I do not think the church should not be hold responsible for her way dealing with abuse, nor should those who commit abuse go without punishment, but saying "the church horrifies me because priests commit abuse" is no different than "families horrify me because family members commit abuse". Families do not commit abuse and the church does not commit abuse, but individual members. That was the only point I wanted to make.

And, boltingmadonna, just FYI, people with different opinions are welcome on this board.

Ok, I see your point better now. I don't think the comparison really holds though. It would make more sense to say specific members of a specific family committed abuse and then cut all ties with them, but I see your point. I just couldn't associate myself with an institution with an institution that treats women as second class and that teaches acting on homosexuality and using birth control is sinful. It's not so much the horrible stuff people within the institution did in the past, it is the horrible stuff that is officially taught now.

I remember the day I became totally disillusioned with Catholicism. I was in grade 9 religion class and was reading the textbook when I came upon the passage that claimed the (paraphrased) following:

1. The purpose of sex is both procreative and unitive

2. Both these elements need to be present

3. Therefore, two people of the same sex cannot have sex

4. But infertile couples or those past reproductive age can totally have sex and it's all good

I was with them up until point three, I disagreed but at least they were being consistent. Then I got to point four.

[margiebargie]

I do not mean cutting ties with a specific member of a family who has committed the crime, but mean that we do not, in advance, cut ties with all family members because abuse could happen.

I do not think the church should not be hold responsible for her way dealing with abuse, nor should those who commit abuse go without punishment, but saying "the church horrifies me because priests commit abuse" is no different than "families horrify me because family members commit abuse". Families do not commit abuse and the church does not commit abuse, but individual members. That was the only point I wanted to make.

And, boltingmadonna, just FYI, people with different opinions are welcome on this board.

No. Sorry. I do not buy that analogy at all. The Catholic Church resembles a corporation, not a family. Unfortunately, it resembles an evil, corrupt corporation out to evade liability and stick its victims with the tab. Perhaps an individual family could be compared to the Catholic church. As others have already pointed out, the best way to deal with a family who commits/facilitates abuse is to remove yourself from the situation. So I suppose, in that case, your analogy is valid.

Look, I know Catholics don't like to hear this. Nobody wants to admit that an organization they are attached could be so...evil. Nobody wants to admit that they are powerless to change such an organization from within. Like I said, I was raised Catholic. People I know, love and respect are still members of the church. I don't like it, but I still love my peeps. I know they're good people - but when it comes to the church they overlook some very bad things that I just can't.

And yes, differing opinions are allowed. However, supporting the Catholic church....you can't expect that to be a popular one here or anywhere. You're bound to get a lot of criticism - much of it justified. Frankly, I don't think the church deserves your loyalty.

[Boltingmadonna]

And, boltingmadonna, just FYI, people with different opinions are welcome on this board.

Hey, thanks, Cran, I'm glad you welcome my opinion! ;)

Of course your opinion is welcome, duh. I wasn't trying to push you out of the discussion. Just honestly wondering, if you are "sick" of blaming people who deserve it, then how do you have fun here? Coming around just to tell us the Catholic Church should get a pass doesn't seem worth getting out the popcorn for.

[Patsy]

I do not mean cutting ties with a specific member of a family who has committed the crime, but mean that we do not, in advance, cut ties with all family members because abuse could happen.

I don't disdain the Catholic church because I think if I go along, some kid I know will get molested. I do judge the hierarchy's previous decision. If your wider family had openly covered up for a paedophile, ignored the victim, and kept that paedophile in the family gatherings, you'd still go along? I think that's a closer analogy.

[theologygeek]

No. Sorry. I do not buy that analogy at all. The Catholic Church resembles a corporation, not a family. Unfortunately, it resembles an evil, corrupt corporation out to evade liability and stick its victims with the tab. Perhaps an individual family could be compared to the Catholic church. As others have already pointed out, the best way to deal with a family who commits/facilitates abuse is to remove yourself from the situation. So I suppose, in that case, your analogy is valid.

Look, I know Catholics don't like to hear this. Nobody wants to admit that an organization they are attached could be so...evil. Nobody wants to admit that they are powerless to change such an organization from within. Like I said, I was raised Catholic. People I know, love and respect are still members of the church. I don't like it, but I still love my peeps. I know they're good people - but when it comes to the church they overlook some very bad things that I just can't.

And yes, differing opinions are allowed. However, supporting the Catholic church....you can't expect that to be a popular one here or anywhere. You're bound to get a lot of criticism - much of it justified. Frankly, I don't think the church deserves your loyalty.

If people want to attend church, they don't have any choice when they believe in the majority of Catholic doctrine. It's either go to a Catholic church or don't go anywhere. People are shit out of luck which shouldn't be because everyone has the freedom to go to church if they want to go. I don't agree with a lot of things regarding the people who run the Church, but I believe in the doctrine. What choice do I have? Can't go Protestant when I don't believe in the doctrine of any of the Protestant denominations. Can't go non denominational because I don't believe in sola fide. That is a big one for me and I'm not willing to bend on it. I believe that faith and works are necessary for salvation. I stopped going to church. I'd love to go to church. What solution do you have? Everyone has an opinion, but no one can come up with a solution.

[margiebargie]

theologygeek, my solution would be to quit the church anyway. What do you suppose Jesus would think about the church's conduct? I would hope he's none too pleased. Jesus is supposed to be the main thing, right?

I feel very fortunate to have gotten past my supernatural beliefs. I think that if you feel bound to support an organization with such a poor track record, you should strongly reconsider the beliefs that are leading you to do that. These particular supernatural beliefs are supposed to lead you to do the right thing, not the wrong thing, yes? If not then you probably ought to make a change.

The church is not going to change without a big push. And only the members can provide that push. Someone upthread said that the church is not a democracy. So true, but you can vote with your feet and your wallet.

Probably not the solution you want, but it's all I've got.

[Boltingmadonna]

theologygeek said:

I don't agree with a lot of things regarding the people who run the Church, but I believe in the doctrine. What choice do I have?

I have a lot of sympathy for you, theologygeek, because that's the same position I was in a few years ago. I thought, "But it's the true body and blood of Christ! No other church has that! How can I live without the sacraments, without my Catholic identity? I wouldn't even know who I was." But, after the Church's horrible way of dealing with sex abuse in its ranks, I just felt sick every time I went into a church to go to Mass. I quit going, but I still thought of myself as a believer.

I can tell you what I did--YMMV and it might not be what you'd choose. First, I read more and more about the sex abuse scandal. There's a website called bishopaccountability that has a lot of documents. I read blogs of people who had been abused. I became convinced that it wasn't, as they like to say, just a few individuals. The bishops, the leaders of the church, worked together to cover up and deny, in a concerted, organized, coordinated effort. Again, it wasn't just a few bad apples, it was all of them together. That made me think twice about their teaching authority. If they were wrong about that, what else were they wrong about? If they were hearing the voice of God, how did they miss the memo that you can't let people go on abusing children with impunity?

While I was away from the Catholic church, I visited other churches and found that there were very nice, good people teaching that you should be good to each other, and creating sacred space in their own ways. It didn't even look that different. I continued to study the teachings of the Catholic Church, and the more I studied, the less sense they made. I also studied the teachings of other religions, and realized that they ALL think they got a special revelation.

I came to the conclusion that none of this was revealed by God. Men got these revelations (always men, isn't that interesting!) and wrote them down. Then other men argued, discussed, and voted on which revelations were the real ones. Then they started teaching them and interpreting them, and banding together in organized groups to make sure they kept all the power to themselves. Oy. What else is new? I concluded that all of this happened in response to political, social, and economic forces. That's what determined the rise and fall of religions, not the mandate of God.

That's a highly simplified version. As I said, YMMV. You sound like a studious person, so probably the best thing is to go on studying. I wish you luck.