"Nobody made you listen..."

[Deleted07]

oh and 'you're so judgemental, what does it effect you!?"

[debrand]

You're able to say that in all seriousness, but IFB converts are the ones with no critical thinking skills? Look in a mirror. :lol:

Some Christians believe that because the husband is supposed to represent Christ in the marriage, he should not hesitate to give his life for her. It sounds nice. The problem is that most of us will never be in a situation in which we have to choose to give our life for our spouse. Women are required to be submissive in every day life

[valsa]

I am a born-again Christian, and believe that we (Christians) submit to Christ. Wives submit to their husbands and in turn husbands love their wives as Christ loved the Church (gave His life). So essentially, the husbands have the harder job because they have to love their wives to the death. Submitting doesn't mean giving in on everything either. My husband and I have been married 33 years and I can't remember him telling me to submit to him. Just like I never told him he has to feel or act loving towards me when I do stuff that irritates him.

As Debrand said- count the number of times your husband has almost had to give his life for yours, versus the times you've had to be submissive. I'm guessing the score will be: 0, assloads.

Do you believe your husband has the final say in decisions? Like, if you believe one thing strongly and he believed the opposite, you would ultimately have to go with what he wanted to do?

[Constance Vigilance]

Some Christians believe that because the husband is supposed to represent Christ in the marriage, he should not hesitate to give his life for her. It sounds nice. The problem is that most of us will never be in a situation in which we have to choose to give our life for our spouse. Women are required to be submissive in every day life

Well exactly. It's nice that in some hypothetical future situation CC3's husband would love her enough to die for her or whatever, but in exactly which way is that harder than being a second class citizen every day? Gee, it's difficult having an unpaid servant to clean your house and mind your kids and make your meals and obey you at every turn. And in return you have to have some vague future intentions about a situation that will probably never occur! It's just the hardest.

[The Archivist]

CC3, not to pile on, but I have to say that it's not like your IFB friend has to exercise maximum tolerance to accept you as a friend and converse with you. From where I stand, your beliefs are perhaps a paler shade of hers, but still of a similar hue.

[valsa]

Am I the only one who doesn't really want to have a partner who would die for me?

Granted, I'd expect both my partner and I to be willing to die to protect our children but I'm a grown ass adult who doesn't need that level of protection. If we did find ourselves in a situation where one of us might die, I'd rather have a partner who was thinking of a way for both of us to survive rather than one who was spending that time shoring up their courage to be the one to die.

[CC3]

As Debrand said- count the number of times your husband has almost had to give his life for yours, versus the times you've had to be submissive. I'm guessing the score will be: 0

I didn't mean literally like slaying an enemy. Giving his life for me means putting me first. Thinking of me before he thinks about his own desires. But it works both ways. Last night I made him dinner. Tonight he is making me dinner. I know that's simplistic. Also, with having kids, we had two. We agreed that he would get a vasectomy because I went through childbirth.

And in big decisions where we don't agree, if we can, we postpone the decision and reevaluate. It really hasn't ever been a problem.

[valsa]

I didn't mean literally like slaying an enemy. Giving his life for me means putting me first. Thinking of me before he thinks about his own desires. But it works both ways. Last night I made him dinner. Tonight he is making me dinner. I know that's simplistic. Also, with having kids, we had two. We agreed that he would get a vasectomy because I went through childbirth.

And in big decisions where we don't agree, if we can, we postpone the decision and reevaluate. It really hasn't ever been a problem.

If he's supposed to put you first and you're supposed to submit (which, by definition, means putting him first)- how is what he does harder? You're both doing the same thing.

[deelaem]

I am a born-again Christian, and believe that we (Christians) submit to Christ. Wives submit to their husbands and in turn husbands love their wives as Christ loved the Church (gave His life). So essentially, the husbands have the harder job because they have to love their wives to the death. Submitting doesn't mean giving in on everything either. My husband and I have been married 33 years and I can't remember him telling me to submit to him. Just like I never told him he has to feel or act loving towards me when I do stuff that irritates him.

Aaaaand the turd rises to the top of the punch bowl...

[CC3]

If he's supposed to put you first and you're supposed to submit (which, by definition, means putting him first)- how is what he does harder? You're both doing the same thing.

I believe you are getting the idea. LOL There isn't one really. Sometimes I think to myself it was written that husbands should love their wives as Christ loved the Church and women should respect their husbands because some wives are hard to love and many husbands are hard to respect. This is just my opinion. Not something I learned from anyone.

[Austin]

I am a born-again Christian, and believe that we (Christians) submit to Christ. Wives submit to their husbands and in turn husbands love their wives as Christ loved the Church (gave His life). So essentially, the husbands have the harder job because they have to love their wives to the death. Submitting doesn't mean giving in on everything either. My husband and I have been married 33 years and I can't remember him telling me to submit to him. Just like I never told him he has to feel or act loving towards me when I do stuff that irritates him.

Oh, boy. . .

Ma'am, step away from the kool-aid!

[Rosa]

I do get the "why listen if it's not for you" (though I have gotten that in real life, and the answer was "BECAUSE YOU ARE "MINISTERING" ON YOUR CELL PHONE AT THE TOP OF YOUR VOICE IN A PUBLIC PLACE YOU JERK").

But really: if a post is "about" Jesus and being close to Jesus and whatever, I'm not going to comment, I'm not a Christian, I don't give a flying fuck about it. I hate the flyby "You're an irrational moron!" atheist postings, just like i hate the flyby conversion attempts here. Though no atheist has ever randomly dropped into my house or conversation to try to convert me, and Christians do that in real life to me at least once a week, so I don't hate the atheist flybys as *much* yet. Maybe in 50 years smug atheists will be the dominant cultural force in the country and I'll have equal irritation built up for them.

On the other hand, if the subject of the post is supposed to be "parenting" or "health effects of microwave ovens" or "fashion" then I feel free to comment. Because they're pretending it's for a general audience, not just people who think like them about God wanting to beat children and smite women whose collarbones show.

[valsa]

I believe you are getting the idea. LOL There isn't one really. Sometimes I think to myself it was written that husbands should love their wives as Christ loved the Church and women should respect their husbands because some wives are hard to love and many husbands are hard to respect. This is just my opinion. Not something I learned from anyone.

Excuse me but I asked you a question, I didn't agree with you. You said husbands have a harder job but also that you and your husband are supposedly doing the same thing (I don't believe you are, by the way) I asked you to explain how you can believe those both those mutually exclusive things.

The bolded part made me literally facepalm. Scared my cats.

[JesusFightClub]

I do get the "why listen if it's not for you" (though I have gotten that in real life, and the answer was "BECAUSE YOU ARE "MINISTERING" ON YOUR CELL PHONE AT THE TOP OF YOUR VOICE IN A PUBLIC PLACE YOU JERK").

But really: if a post is "about" Jesus and being close to Jesus and whatever, I'm not going to comment, I'm not a Christian, I don't give a flying fuck about it. I hate the flyby "You're an irrational moron!" atheist postings, just like i hate the flyby conversion attempts here. Though no atheist has ever randomly dropped into my house or conversation to try to convert me, and Christians do that in real life to me at least once a week, so I don't hate the atheist flybys as *much* yet. Maybe in 50 years smug atheists will be the dominant cultural force in the country and I'll have equal irritation built up for them.

On the other hand, if the subject of the post is supposed to be "parenting" or "health effects of microwave ovens" or "fashion" then I feel free to comment. Because they're pretending it's for a general audience, not just people who think like them about God wanting to beat children and smite women whose collarbones show.

And...this! :)

LaTraviata, Clementine, Snarkbillie and others made a good point which I was struggling to articulate. If you go into fundyland it's one thing. But when they come into secularland and tell you off for not being a fundie it is because you are bitter, hateful, your life is terrible and you should just STFU and listen to them.

If they stayed in their own discussion groups and didn't try to influence public discourse that would be one thing. But they don't, they go everywhere and when you disagree with them act as hurt and outraged as if you had devoured a live puppy in front of their eyes. Disagree? With a good fundamentalist Christian? How can this BE?

I hold an unpopular political viewpoint and see it as my duty to explain why. Sometimes I fuck my explanation up spectacularly and make people hate me. But I don't ever get to use "ah, you are all bitter hateful people!" or "You shouldn't have been reading in the first place!" or the myriad of other fundie copouts. It is *wrong* to do that.

[valsa]

Maybe in 50 years smug atheists will be the dominant cultural force in the country and I'll have equal irritation built up for them.

I'd honestly love to live in this world. As an atheist, even though smug atheists are just as annoying as smug fundies, they're far less likely to pass laws to take away my rights or support horrible things like killing gay people or non-atheists.

[The Archivist]

In a rational world, the evangelicals who are all about soul-winning should be well-equipped to debate. I mean, they are by definition trying to win unbelievers over to their side, right? And if they can't hack criticism without fainting spells, and if they can't logic their way out of a wet paper bag, then they are just going to alienate people. And SURPRISE, because they mostly can't debate for shit, they mostly do.

I have yet to hear of anyone who was converted by a Chick tract or similar tactics.

[So Many Lies]

Am I the only one who doesn't really want to have a partner who would die for me?

Granted, I'd expect both my partner and I to be willing to die to protect our children but I'm a grown ass adult who doesn't need that level of protection. If we did find ourselves in a situation where one of us might die, I'd rather have a partner who was thinking of a way for both of us to survive rather than one who was spending that time shoring up their courage to be the one to die.

And also I like a good fight every so often. We can't *always* agree can we? I guess that's where you're meant to just roll over and agree with everything ie submit. It sounds HORRIBLE. I don't want peace at any cost.

[LittleMy]

I didn't mean literally like slaying an enemy. Giving his life for me means putting me first. Thinking of me before he thinks about his own desires. But it works both ways. Last night I made him dinner. Tonight he is making me dinner. I know that's simplistic. Also, with having kids, we had two. We agreed that he would get a vasectomy because I went through childbirth.

And in big decisions where we don't agree, if we can, we postpone the decision and reevaluate. It really hasn't ever been a problem.

Actually what you are describing here sounds like mutual submission to me, you're both deferring to each others needs and on big decisions you seem to be waiting for agreement with each other. I can see how this would really work in marriage....but that's not how women only submission, which is what I thought you were originally saying was your chosen dynamic would look. At least I don't think so?

[freejoytoo]

I'd honestly love to live in this world. As an atheist, even though smug atheists are just as annoying as smug fundies, they're far less likely to pass laws to take away my rights or support horrible things like killing gay people or non-atheists.

This. People complain about Richard Dawkins being smug but he's just trying to teach science. The worst he's going to do is say God doesn't exist. How on EARTH is that worse than people killing people over their beliefs and telling kids they're going to go to hell if they don't believe something written in an ancient, and highly-edited book?

[latraviata]

This. People complain about Richard Dawkins being smug but he's just trying to teach science. The worst he's going to do is say God doesn't exist. How on EARTH is that worse than people killing people over their beliefs and telling kids they're going to go to hell if they don't believe something written in an ancient, and highly-edited book?

:clap: :clap:

[CC3]

Actually what you are describing here sounds like mutual submission to me, you're both deferring to each others needs and on big decisions you seem to be waiting for agreement with each other. I can see how this would really work in marriage....but that's not how women only submission, which is what I thought you were originally saying was your chosen dynamic would look. At least I don't think so?

Yes, you could call it mutual submission. It really boils down to what Christ says "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and all your might and love your neighbor as yourself."

[CC3]

Hey CC3

You say that you havne't found this relationship from your fundie friend but it also sounds as if you don't press the issues. I imagine if you told her that her husband was a jerk that didn't have the maturity to treat his wife correctly and that she needed to stand up for herself, she might not be so friendly about disagreeing with you.

We've talked about her husband. I didn't call him a jerk, but you are right. He certainly is lacking in maturity. He is not a monster; he is clueless. I want to scream at him "get a real job instead of 'self employment' that doesn't pay the bills", but that wouldn't accomplish much because of his indoctrination. I am encouraging her to stand up for herself. She is under a huge amount of pressure at this time and I don't want to add to it. I could just walk away from the friendship, but I really care about her and her ten children. My approach is gentle. And believe me, she knows what a bad deal she has gotten joining this fundie group. I have no doubt that some of her kids will leave the IBF lifestyle behind at the first opportunity. The Duggars are so far removed from the typical IFB family. IFB churches leave most people destitute, undernourished, living off of handouts and the generosity of their community. TLC should put out a show on what really happens in this cult.

[Rosa]

I'd honestly love to live in this world. As an atheist, even though smug atheists are just as annoying as smug fundies, they're far less likely to pass laws to take away my rights or support horrible things like killing gay people or non-atheists.

I don't know, I have built a life for myself with a lot more smug atheists in it than smug Christians, and unfortunately I've learned they're just as likely to be sexist, elitist sacks of shit as anybody else, who attack you if you say "don't whip your dick out at the party, I didn't ask to see it", are perfectly willing to vote away abortion rights in return for the right to smoke pot, consider having to pay child support a form of unconstitutional taking, and consider contraception "just a women's issue". People's religious views have surprisingly little to do with whether they are progressive or not (surprising to me, at least; because of how I was raised I assumed sexism really DID come from god-ism.)

[deelaem]

I don't know, I have built a life for myself with a lot more smug atheists in it than smug Christians, and unfortunately I've learned they're just as likely to be sexist, elitist sacks of shit as anybody else, who attack you if you say "don't whip your dick out at the party, I didn't ask to see it", are perfectly willing to vote away abortion rights in return for the right to smoke pot, consider having to pay child support a form of unconstitutional taking, and consider contraception "just a women's issue". People's religious views have surprisingly little to do with whether they are progressive or not (surprising to me, at least; because of how I was raised I assumed sexism really DID come from god-ism.)

Sweeping generalizations, your table is ready!

[Rosa]

Wait, it's a generalization to say that atheists are AS SEXIST as anybody else? That's interesting. I'd think the generalization would be if I were claiming atheists were exceptional in some way.