"Nobody made you listen..."

[JesusFightClub]

This is one of the most annoying things fundies do when anyone criticises aspects of their subculture.

"Well, if you don't like it, don't listen."

"It's meant for REAL Christians, not for you."

"Are you trying to shut us down just because we have a different opinion?"

I have seen this on numerous fundie blogs and comments and it really winds me up. I do not get how they will not defend their own beliefs. To me that is absolutely vital. I fuck up, but I try.

For fundies, they seem to think the default is fundamentalist Christianity and if you ask questions or disagree the best thing to do is not engage calmly and politely but yell at you that you should not have even DREAMED of disagreeing and why did you even notice our plans to take over in the first place, miserable non fundie that you are. It's really confusing to me as well because everything they condemn communists for doing in debate they do far worse themselves.

Is this a lack of intellectual backbone in the fundie movement, or something else?

[latraviata]

This is one of the most annoying things fundies do when anyone criticises aspects of their subculture.

"Well, if you don't like it, don't listen."

"It's meant for REAL Christians, not for you."

"Are you trying to shut us down just because we have a different opinion?"

I have seen this on numerous fundie blogs and comments and it really winds me up. I do not get how they will not defend their own beliefs. To me that is absolutely vital. I fuck up, but I try.

For fundies, they seem to think the default is fundamentalist Christianity and if you ask questions or disagree the best thing to do is not engage calmly and politely but yell at you that you should not have even DREAMED of disagreeing and why did you even notice our plans to take over in the first place, miserable non fundie that you are. It's really confusing to me as well because everything they condemn communists for doing in debate they do far worse themselves.

Is this a lack of intellectual backbone in the fundie movement, or something else?

Second that (again), only you are forgetting one:

You must be very disappointed and bitter

[Clementine]

This is one of the most annoying things fundies do when anyone criticises aspects of their subculture.

"Well, if you don't like it, don't listen."

"It's meant for REAL Christians, not for you."

"Are you trying to shut us down just because we have a different opinion?"

I have seen this on numerous fundie blogs and comments and it really winds me up. I do not get how they will not defend their own beliefs. To me that is absolutely vital. I fuck up, but I try.

For fundies, they seem to think the default is fundamentalist Christianity and if you ask questions or disagree the best thing to do is not engage calmly and politely but yell at you that you should not have even DREAMED of disagreeing and why did you even notice our plans to take over in the first place, miserable non fundie that you are. It's really confusing to me as well because everything they condemn communists for doing in debate they do far worse themselves.

Is this a lack of intellectual backbone in the fundie movement, or something else?

You forgot: Anybody who questions their beliefs or lifestyle or just have a different opinion is "hateful". "There is so much HATE out there...!"

I guess that they are brainwashed into a complete black and white thinking. You are either one of them or HATEFUL.

[snarkbillie]

I love the whole "I didn't post this to start a debate!" and "It's just my opinion! Free speech!" after they post something horribly racist, sexist or abusive. When I say "love" I mean hate though.

[fundifugee]

I blame church.

During the more gradual phase of my escape, after I switched over to a public university, I got increasingly more uncomfortable with the church setup. Why should Some Guy be able to stand up there and natter on every week with nobody being able to ask questions, debate, or discuss with him without an individual appointment afterward? It was intellectual laziness, and a poor learning environment. Everyone was supposed to listen and accept that whatever came out of his mouth was Truth because god told him so.

[debrand]

I've been pondering this myself. At its core, I think that fundamentalist and conservative is selfish. That is not saying that all fundamentalists or conservatives Christians are selfish but I think that a lot are.

To decide that your beliefs should not only control your own life but the lives of those who don't share your beliefs is pretty damned egotistical. The reason that some Christians in the United States scream persecution when some poor shop clerk wishes them Happy Holidays is because they-the Christians-feel entitled and are self absorbed. Something about the way they practice their faith actually makes them ignore all of Jesus' teachings about being humble and loving toward their enemies.

Notice that Christian fundies(and many conservative or evangelicals) want to discuss what they find wrong in society but get offended if anyone tries to critically discuss their views. It takes a very pathologically large ego to feel that only certain Christians deserve free speech.

What is most sad is that they aren't actually following what their founder, Jesus taught.

[The Archivist]

Learning to debate calmly and logically is a skill that takes a lot of practice, especially in a culture that is often afraid of direct conflict and confrontation. I wasn't raised religious, but it has taken me a lot of practice to be able to have a civil debate about things I care deeply about - and a lot of that, I learned in public school and university.

If you are raised in an echo chamber where no one HAS differing beliefs and opinions, let alone the right to speak them out loud, you are going to have absolutely zero practice in this area, in coming up with logical defenses for your positions, and in having ANY debate, let alone a civil one...until you stumble on the internet, which is basically just a giant wrestling ring for geeks.

And then you'll shit bricks.

[dairyfreelife]

Learning to debate calmly and logically is a skill that takes a lot of practice, especially in a culture that is often afraid of direct conflict and confrontation. I wasn't raised religious, but it has taken me a lot of practice to be able to have a civil debate about things I care deeply about - and a lot of that, I learned in public school and university.

If you are raised in an echo chamber where no one HAS differing beliefs and opinions, let alone the right to speak them out loud, you are going to have absolutely zero practice in this area, in coming up with logical defenses for your positions, and in having ANY debate, let alone a civil one...until you stumble on the internet, which is basically just a giant wrestling ring for geeks. And then you're going to shit bricks.

This. Debate is a skill learned. Of course, some like Chris Jeub who coaches a Christian Debate Team thinks he knows how to debate-but he doesn't. They are with mostly like-minded individuals. They don't know how to stand up for what they believe in. When they run across someone who questions them, they shut down and turn it on the person debating so they don't have to answer. That's what people do when the other person is right or they don't wish to answer-they turn the subject to someone else or something else.

[GolightlyGrrl]

I've been pondering this myself. At its core, I think that fundamentalist and conservative is selfish. That is not saying that all fundamentalists or conservatives Christians are selfish but I think that a lot are.

To decide that your beliefs should not only control your own life but the lives of those who don't share your beliefs is pretty damned egotistical. The reason that some Christians in the United States scream persecution when some poor shop clerk wishes them Happy Holidays is because they-the Christians-feel entitled and are self absorbed. Something about the way they practice their faith actually makes them ignore all of Jesus' teachings about being humble and loving toward their enemies.

Notice that Christian fundies(and many conservative or evangelicals) want to discuss what they find wrong in society but get offended if anyone tries to critically discuss their views. It takes a very pathologically large ego to feel that only certain Christians deserve free speech.

What is most sad is that they aren't actually following what their founder, Jesus taught.

Great thoughts. Thanks for sharing them.

I'm childfree by choice, and I used to post on some childfree message boards. However, I had difficulty with some posters who were so adamantly childfree they couldn't even entertain the idea that some people do desire children, and there are truly wonderful parents and children out there. But to some of these childfree, there are the childfree and then there are the "breeders" and their "spawn."

Interestingly enough, these childfree tended to be very conservative politically in the tea party sense.

[Anxious Girl]

This is one of my cultish/fundie favorites: "Why are you persecuting people like me? You do know that persecution is bad, and or condemening right?!?11eleventy111." They do not seem to understand what persecution is. Or that they/their cult/religion has done/does it to other groups of people that they view are evil, immoral in their views, or "wrong."

[CC3]

I haven't found this type of reaction from my fundie friend. We can disagree with each other without it causing a problem in our friendship. Christianity is not a list of rules to be debated, but a denial of oneself in order to be of service to others through Christ's love. We disagree about dress and when I inquired about her belief, she gave me a "guideline" book her pastor wrote. I won't say it was wrong because there wasn't anything I disagreed with on the surface. I do believe in modesty and she and I have our own ideas on what it entails. Where we don't agree is on larger matters of which she cannot control. I don't like how her husband "lords" over her even though I know he loves her more than life. I would like him to respect her more and provide better for their children. I don't see the government social helps like food stamps to be "evil." I would rather eat than not eat. God will provide for you but you must take Him up on it. LOL We have spent Christmases together and as long as we don't get into some of the real dicey issues of their extremist beliefs, all is well. In fact, they are a joy to have in my home. I feel loving them as they are will help more in the long run than debating some beliefs that are not written in the New Testament (not eating pork, young women staying in the home too long and not working to help financially, etc). Their friends from their IFB church are another story. They are some of the most judgmental individuals I have ever met. Their friends need to remember to display Christ's love or no one will find their "faith" attractive or believable. Jesus had no patience for the Pharisee's who based their "faith" on a set of rules with upteen exceptions and ways to get out of doing the "right" thing. I think IFB converts are usually uneducated, without critical thinking skills, plus overwhelmed when they end up with too many children to provide for and no physical strength to even desire to ask questions of their leaders. I think these people in general should be loved and very slowly challenged on why they believe as they do. And the friends say I belong to a cult. LOL But Jesus did say we would be persecuted so why should I be the exception. Just my two cents...

[deelaem]

I haven't found this type of reaction from my fundie friend. We can disagree with each other without it causing a problem in our friendship. Christianity is not a list of rules to be debated, but a denial of oneself in order to be of service to others through Christ's love. We disagree about dress and when I inquired about her belief, she gave me a "guideline" book her pastor wrote. I won't say it was wrong because there wasn't anything I disagreed with on the surface. I do believe in modesty and she and I have our own ideas on what it entails. Where we don't agree is on larger matters of which she cannot control. I don't like how her husband "lords" over her even though I know he loves her more than life. I would like him to respect her more and provide better for their children. I don't see the government social helps like food stamps to be "evil." I would rather eat than not eat. God will provide for you but you must take Him up on it. LOL We have spent Christmases together and as long as we don't get into some of the real dicey issues of their extremist beliefs, all is well. In fact, they are a joy to have in my home. I feel loving them as they are will help more in the long run than debating some beliefs that are not written in the New Testament (not eating pork, young women staying in the home too long and not working to help financially, etc). Their friends from their IFB church are another story. They are some of the most judgmental individuals I have ever met. Their friends need to remember to display Christ's love or no one will find their "faith" attractive or believable. Jesus had no patience for the Pharisee's who based their "faith" on a set of rules with upteen exceptions and ways to get out of doing the "right" thing. I think IFB converts are usually uneducated, without critical thinking skills, plus overwhelmed when they end up with too many children to provide for and no physical strength to even desire to ask questions of their leaders. I think these people in general should be loved and very slowly challenged on why they believe as they do. And the friends say I belong to a cult. LOL But Jesus did say we would be persecuted so why should I be the exception. Just my two cents...

Wow, thanks for the sermon. I guess it is Sunday.

[Anxious Girl]

I haven't found this type of reaction from my fundie friend. We can disagree with each other without it causing a problem in our friendship. Christianity is not a list of rules to be debated, but a denial of oneself in order to be of service to others through Christ's love. We disagree about dress and when I inquired about her belief, she gave me a "guideline" book her pastor wrote. I won't say it was wrong because there wasn't anything I disagreed with on the surface. I do believe in modesty and she and I have our own ideas on what it entails. Where we don't agree is on larger matters of which she cannot control. I don't see the government social helps like food stamps to be "evil." I would rather eat than not eat. God will provide for you but you must take Him up on it. LOL We have spent Christmases together and as long as we don't get into some of the real dicey issues of their extremist beliefs, all is well. In fact, they are a joy to have in my home. Their friends from their IFB church are another story. They are some of the most judgmental individuals I have ever met. Their friends need to remember to display Christ's love or no one will find their "faith" attractive or believable. Jesus had no patience for the Pharisee's who based their "faith" on a set of rules with upteen exceptions and ways to get out of doing the "right" thing. I think IFB converts are usually uneducated, without critical thinking skills, plus overwhelmed when they end up with too many children to provide for and no physical strength to even desire to ask questions of their leaders. I think these people in general should be loved and very slowly challenged on why they believe as they do. And the friends say I belong to a cult.

quote]

Bolded #1.) If a man truely loved a woman, then he wouldn't require submission to to him from her. A man who believes in fundie-modesty is weak according to his own religion because he has to rely on a girl to make him feel less horny by wearing non-revealing clothes, when as the supposedly patriarchal Superman he's supposed to be strong in all his ways.

Bolded #2.) Since when has anybody on her persecuted somebody for their beliefs? People may have said that they don't want to believe in God/gods/godesses/have a religion. They don't want to be converted, and if somebody tries to bribe them with, they ask but why? Even though some people are like that in my insert here cult/religion, not all of them are. Besides, my insert cult/religion teaches people to be moral and respectful when the fundies or cults of a particular religion do violence against minority groups and women in the name of their Religion because that is what their deity/deities told them to do through their holy books. And don't even get me started on how flawed Biblical passages are. Most Christian religions are against editting the Bible, yet it has been edited time and time again for political/what a particular society deems "acceptable" at the time. Just becase religious people are/can be persecuted, does not give them a right to persecute others.

P.S: Shouldn't you be setting a good example for your fellow fundie Christians and go to Church and pray/rest all day today? After all, it is Sunday.

[Austin]

I seriously doubt her husband loves her more than anything if he "lords" over her at all. Your definition of love needs some work.

[CC3]

quote]

Bolded #1.) If a man truely loved a woman, then he wouldn't require submission to to him from her. A man who believes in fundie-modesty is weak according to his own religion because he has to rely on a girl to make him feel less horny by wearing non-revealing clothes, when as the supposedly patriarchal Superman he's supposed to be strong in all his ways.

Bolded #2.) Since when has anybody on her persecuted somebody for their beliefs? People may have said that they don't want to believe in God/gods/godesses/have a religion. They don't want to be converted, and if somebody tries to bribe them with, they ask but why? Even though some people are like that in my insert here cult/religion, not all of them are. Besides, my insert cult/religion teaches people to be moral and respectful when the fundies or cults of a particular religion do violence against minority groups and women in the name of their Religion because that is what their deity/deities told them to do through their holy books. And don't even get me started on how flawed Biblical passages are. Most Christian religions are against editting the Bible, yet it has been edited time and time again for political/what a particular society deems "acceptable" at the time. Just becase religious people are/can be persecuted, does not give them a right to persecute others.

P.S: Shouldn't you be setting a good example for your fellow fundie Christians and go to Church and pray/rest all day today? After all, it is Sunday.

Hi Anxious Girl,

1. I agree with you on the forced submission. And yes fundie modesty is over the top. I dress modestly because I want to not because I have to. I don't need to wear a dress or skirt everyday and plus it's not very practical.

2. I was putting the LOL with the sentence where their friends said I belonged to a cult. The next sentence about being persecuted is sarcasm. Sorry if it didn't come across to you that way.

I am not sure why you are saying I am a fundie. I'm not concerned about it being Sunday. What am I supposed to do? Sleep all day.

[Jezebel]

This is one of the most annoying things fundies do when anyone criticises aspects of their subculture.

"Well, if you don't like it, don't listen."

"It's meant for REAL Christians, not for you."

"Are you trying to shut us down just because we have a different opinion?"

I have seen this on numerous fundie blogs and comments and it really winds me up. I do not get how they will not defend their own beliefs. To me that is absolutely vital. I fuck up, but I try.

For fundies, they seem to think the default is fundamentalist Christianity and if you ask questions or disagree the best thing to do is not engage calmly and politely but yell at you that you should not have even DREAMED of disagreeing and why did you even notice our plans to take over in the first place, miserable non fundie that you are. It's really confusing to me as well because everything they condemn communists for doing in debate they do far worse themselves.

Is this a lack of intellectual backbone in the fundie movement, or something else?

The thing is, they can't defend their beliefs against skepticism or unbelief, which is why they panic.

Someone who has acquired their beliefs on their own--through study, experience, discussion, debate, and reflection--knows why they believe what they believe. They've had to give it a lot of thought. Challenge them, and they will be able to argue in defense of their beliefs. Their defense may not be perfect, but they've at least considered the valid reasons why others might not agree, and be able to address them. Because they got to their current position through rational thought, it's possible for their beliefs to evolve, given new information. And it's not the end of the world when one's beliefs change, either. Nothing is lost.

Not so with fundies. I don't know of anybody who has thought their way into fundamentalism of any stripe. Fundamentalism is anti-rational. You get there by following your worst fears (such as death, and what will happen to you and your loved ones after you die). So it can't be defended by rational means, no matter how many preachers and apologists attempt to do so.

So when you challenge a fundamentalist, even gently, they panic. The only defense they have is that the Bible told them so--but if you refuse to accept the validity and authority of the Bible, they don't have any means of defense left. They have no secular backup arguments--or, if they do, they are easily ripped to shreds. And by questioning their belief system, you are questioning the thing that protects them from their worst fears, so of course they're going to flip out. There is absolutely no room for admitting their beliefs might be in error. So you're not just someone who disagrees; you're the worst sort of Hell-bound sinner, sent by Satan to persecute them. Or, if they're nicer about it, you're in desperate need of Christ's light showing you the way out of darkness, and they will pray for you.

And, lets face it, to be a Christian fundamentalist means learning not to see contradictions within the Bible itself, so of course they don't see the contradictions in their own words and behaviors. Crying persecution, while a the same time attempting to deny others civil rights, or the right to make private medical decisions, is a classic example. So is crusading on behalf of fetuses, while turning their backs on already-born children living in poverty.

As for being shocked when a non-fundie comments on their blogs, I think a big part of that is because so many fundies live within a self-selected bubble, surrounded by people who share their same beliefs, and they forget that the Internet isn't a bubble, isn't an echo-chamber. They write for each other, and they're so used to being agreed with in RL that it's a shock when someone who disagrees shows up in the comments of their blogs.

[Anxious Girl]

I typed submission, not forced submission. Wow, so only forced submission is bad? All types of submission which are submission no matter whether it's forced, brainwashed, or willing. Submission in a relationship is not healthy, no matter if it's any of the above.

[CC3]

Submission in fundie homes that I have seen is "forced." Kind of like bullying. I do think her husband loves her, but hangs out with a bunch of dummies that think they can tell their wives what to do.

[Jezebel]

I'm childfree by choice, and I used to post on some childfree message boards. However, I had difficulty with some posters who were so adamantly childfree they couldn't even entertain the idea that some people do desire children, and there are truly wonderful parents and children out there. But to some of these childfree, there are the childfree and then there are the "breeders" and their "spawn."

Interestingly enough, these childfree tended to be very conservative politically in the tea party sense.

They also don't comprehend how I can be childfree by choice--yet still like kids and enjoy being around them. I remember getting called a "breeder apologist" on a CF forum once, and that was my cue that it was time to leave the CF brats to their whining. The appalling misogyny that permeates online CF forums didn't help, either.

What I always found hilarious was that the worst child-haters always seemed to be the most avid collectors of toys and consumers of children's media. And before the Tea Party came along, a lot of them identified themselves as Libertarians and/or Objectivists. God, what a weird bunch...

[Anxious Girl]

@CC3: But you said in your previous post that he "lords" over her, which is submission. And that you wanted him to stop that and have more respect for his kids and wife. So are you for submission, or against it?

[debrand]

I haven't found this type of reaction from my fundie friend. ...

Hey CC3

You say that you havne't found this relationship from your fundie friend but it also sounds as if you don't press the issues. I imagine if you told her that her husband was a jerk that didn't have the maturity to treat his wife correctly and that she needed to stand up for herself, she might not be so friendly about disagreeing with you.

[valsa]

Submission in fundie homes that I have seen is "forced." Kind of like bullying. I do think her husband loves her, but hangs out with a bunch of dummies that think they can tell their wives what to do.

"The crowd I hang out with made me do it" is an excuse for teenagers, not adult men with children.

[Anxious Girl]

"The crowd I hang out with made me do it" is an excuse for teenagers, not adult men with children.

This, oh so much is win.

[CC3]

@CC3: But you said in your previous post that he "lords" over her, which is submission. And that you wanted him to stop that and have more respect for his kids and wife. So are you for submission, or against it?

I am a born-again Christian, and believe that we (Christians) submit to Christ. Wives submit to their husbands and in turn husbands love their wives as Christ loved the Church (gave His life). So essentially, the husbands have the harder job because they have to love their wives to the death. Submitting doesn't mean giving in on everything either. My husband and I have been married 33 years and I can't remember him telling me to submit to him. Just like I never told him he has to feel or act loving towards me when I do stuff that irritates him.

[Constance Vigilance]

So essentially, the husbands have the harder job because they have to love their wives to the death.

You're able to say that in all seriousness, but IFB converts are the ones with no critical thinking skills? Look in a mirror. :lol: