People is reporting that Michelle Duggar miscarried MERGED

[Mama Mia]

An example of where things can move quickly -- Domestic Violence restraining orders. If you call the hotline you will see a counselor (non government employee )quickly, after exploring the situation the advocate will take you to court to get a restraining order (government system ) within a few days.

Perfect system, no, often not. But it is a system that incorporates non-government professionals and para-professionals to do the bulk of the work, and very quickly get legal documents.

I am curious ( I know, god forbid someone shouldn't know all the answers ).. aren't there states with parental notification laws that are enforced ? How is that any different from a constitutional standpoint ? There is a parental notification law in California but it has never been enforced.

[Witsec1]

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I am curious ( I know, god forbid someone shouldn't know all the answers ).. aren't there states with parental notification laws that are enforced ? How is that any different from a constitutional standpoint ? There is a parental notification law in California but it has never been enforced.

Oh, fuck me! Really? You don't see a difference from a constitutional standpoint between a child and an adult woman?

Stop digging.

[Angri-la]

Wow. The arguments just get less and less coherent. Are the straws you are grasping at chafing your fingers, dear?

If you don't know the answers, there is a really neat site: http://www.google.comI am not here to educate the willfully ignorant; I will leave that for my more tolerant sisters.

[Mama Mia]

Righhhht....

So a young woman is old enough to have sex. Old enough to become pregnant. Can decide to have the baby and raise it, but somehow her parent's should get a say in whether she does so or not - and that isn't unconstitutional and doesn't violate her right to privacy.

BUT

The father of the potential child , who is contributing half of the dna, gets no say...

Yeah, that makes a hell of a lot of sense.

[Iamthatbean]

An example of where things can move quickly -- Domestic Violence restraining orders. If you call the hotline you will see a counselor (non government employee )quickly, after exploring the situation the advocate will take you to court to get a restraining order (government system ) within a few days.

Perfect system, no, often not. But it is a system that incorporates non-government professionals and para-professionals to do the bulk of the work, and very quickly get legal documents.

I am curious ( I know, god forbid someone shouldn't know all the answers ).. aren't there states with parental notification laws that are enforced ? How is that any different from a constitutional standpoint ? There is a parental notification law in California but it has never been enforced.

Most places, that restraining order is temporary lasting up to a year while court hearings and mediations take place. My DV order took six months to get finalized and another month for him to be served. During that time, my children and I were protected under the temporary order but I was not allowed to get any of my things. By the time I got the final order, my things were destroyed/disappeared anyways. After 12 months, I had to file for a second order to get his guns taken even though the first order required it as well. So, yes, you can very quickly get a temporary order stopping something (like DV) but to get the court case completely settled takes months or years.

In the case of an abortion, lets say it works the same way. A woman has an irregular cycle and discovers she is pregnant at 9 weeks. The state she lives in only allows first trimester abortions. The alleged father goes to court and gets a temporary order requiring her to continue the pregnancy pending mediation. A date is set for the first mediation but it has to be far enough out for her to be properly served. so, 2 weeks. She's now 11 weeks along. First mediation, she refuses to continue the pregnancy, he refuses to allow her to terminate. Reconvene in one week for the second mediation and she is now 12 weeks...sorry, you are now too far along to abort in this state guess you will have to continue the pregnancy...

(also, how in the hell does DV and abortion rights even begin to compare???)

[goldennotebook]

Genetic rights extend to potential fathers when a fetus becomes a baby - when the baby is born, and exists in a non-parasitic fashion outside of a woman's body. During pregnancy, since said fetus is occupying the woman's womb, is dependent on her body for viability, and for whom carrying to term is a high-risk endeavor even under the best of circumstances to her, the choice of what to do with that fetus are hers and hers alone.

This isn't a difficult concept.

[Witsec1]

Righhhht....

So a young woman is old enough to have sex. Old enough to become pregnant. Can decide to have the baby and raise it, but somehow her parent's should get a say in whether she does so or not - and that isn't unconstitutional and doesn't violate her right to privacy.

BUT

The father of the potential child , who is contributing half of the dna, gets no say...

Yeah, that makes a hell of a lot of sense.

You. are. an. idiot.

Parental permission is normally needed for any type of medical procedure for minors under the age of 18. Adult women do not need anyone's approval for medical treatment.

There are arguments for waiving parental permission in the case of abortion, but it's a separate debate.

[Angri-la]

Genetic rights extend to potential fathers when a fetus becomes a baby - when the baby is born, and exists in a non-parasitic fashion outside of a woman's body. During pregnancy, since said fetus is occupying the woman's womb, is dependent on her body for viability, and for whom carrying to term is a high-risk endeavor even under the best of circumstances to her, the choice of what to do with that fetus are hers and hers alone.

This isn't a difficult concept.

See, I told you someone more patient than I would sum it up. Thank you, goldennotebook, you articulated what I wanted to say, minus the Very Bad Language.

[Aurora]

You're the one who brought up parental notification laws, Mrs S!

[Witsec1]

Righhhht....

So a young woman is old enough to have sex. Old enough to become pregnant. Can decide to have the baby and raise it, but somehow her parent's should get a say in whether she does so or not - and that isn't unconstitutional and doesn't violate her right to privacy.

BUT

The father of the potential child , who is contributing half of the dna, gets no say...

Yeah, that makes a hell of a lot of sense.

Again, this is just a straw man argument. No one is forcibly putting a gag in his mouth. If he's in the woman's life enough to know he made her pregnant, he can say whatever the hell he wants. The issue is whether his permission is required. It isn't. Your mandatory counseling bullshit bureaucracy doesn't change that.

[Shirley MacLaine]

So a young woman is old enough to have sex. Old enough to become pregnant. Can decide to have the baby and raise it, but somehow her parent's should get a say in whether she does so or not - and that isn't unconstitutional and doesn't violate her right to privacy.

I believe that it is. Or at least, I believe that a decision to abort should always rest ultimately with the pregnant person.

[Witsec1]

I believe that it is.

I think so too, but it is obviously way more of a gray area than whether an adult woman needs anyone else's permission.

[Austin]

When a possible outcome is for the woman to be able to transfer the embry to the man for the duration of its gestation, then maybe there would be some grounds to discuss mediation. Until we become that scientifically advanced, this is a non-issue. The man has no rights. None. Period. His rights begin when an actual baby is born. There is absolutely NOTHING to mediate.

[NurseNell]

When did you take this photo of MY cat Galway?

[formergothardite]

Yes or no. Do you think men should be able to put women's lives in danger by using mediation? Because delaying abortion does that.

Answer this please. Because even your one week (which is not anything that would happen in the real world, but lets just go with your imaginary world) can put women at the point where things are more dangerous and possibly not be able to have an abortion at all. Do you think men should have this sort of power over the bodies of women? Because it sounds like you do.

So, are you going to answer this question?

[treemom]

An example of where things can move quickly -- Domestic Violence restraining orders. If you call the hotline you will see a counselor (non government employee )quickly, after exploring the situation the advocate will take you to court to get a restraining order (government system ) within a few days.

Perfect system, no, often not. But it is a system that incorporates non-government professionals and para-professionals to do the bulk of the work, and very quickly get legal documents.

I am curious ( I know, god forbid someone shouldn't know all the answers ).. aren't there states with parental notification laws that are enforced ? How is that any different from a constitutional standpoint ? There is a parental notification law in California but it has never been enforced.

Parental consent laws have been ruled unconstitutional in Planned Parenthood vs Danforth and Belotti vs Baird ruled consent is only constitutional when there is a Judicial bypass.

Spousal consent was ruled unconstitutional bin the 70's though the court case slips my mind.

Spousal notification was ruled unconstitutional by the court in 1993 by Planned Parenthood vs Casey.

So yeah, there is ample evidence that if spousal consent and notification has been ruled unconstitutional mediation would fall that way too.

So again, pipe dream.

[treemom]

Also, obviously I am referring to the US only here...which I gather Mrs S is in and would like to change...I am sure there are differences in other countries where abortion is legal and on demand.

[galaxygirl]

So I asked my husband's opinion on this whole should the father have any say topic and he said no. He said that the father can bring up his own suggestions and opinions but ultimately it's the woman's choice because it's her body.

Looking back, I also noticed that when my doctors brought up the c-section I ended up getting(because unfortunately she wasn't going to come out naturally), they only spoke to me, they never addressed my husband directly at all.

[emmiedahl]

Also, parental notification is different from parental permission and parental right to arbitration. Telling the parents that the girl is getting an abortion is very different from allowing them to delay the process by arbitration or asking for a parental permission slip.

There are too many idiot parents who would force a girl to have a baby, otherwise I would be totally cool with parental involvement. I mean, I have to sign for my teenager to get a urine test or even to play soccer. The problem is that abortion is a unique case in which parents are more likely to impose an opinion that violates their children's rights.

[NurseNell]

There are too many idiot parents who would force a girl to have a baby, otherwise I would be totally cool with parental involvement. I mean, I have to sign for my teenager to get a urine test or even to play soccer. The problem is that abortion is a unique case in which parents are more likely to impose an opinion that violates their children's rights.

There would also be those parents forcing a girl to have an abortion. I have really mixed feelings on parental notification or permission.

[treemom]

There would also be those parents forcing a girl to have an abortion. I have really mixed feelings on parental notification or permission.

I am against parental notification or consent....because like many obstacles to abortion...it usually causes loss of life not prevents.

[PennySycamore]

I am against parental notification or consent....because like many obstacles to abortion...it usually causes loss of life not prevents.

One name: Becky Bell.

http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/stories/parental_involvement.html

[Witsec1]

There would also be those parents forcing a girl to have an abortion. I have really mixed feelings on parental notification or permission.

I think most people see the parental notification issue as a genuine moral dilemma no matter which side they come down on.

[Linnea]

From Penny Sycamore's link:

We have been forced to learn in the most painful way imaginable that laws cannot create family communication.

That's why MrsSwhatever's mediation idea is a bad one.

[edited to add bolding]

[fakepigtails73]

One name: Becky Bell.

http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/stories/parental_involvement.html

Thank you! That's her name that I was looking for...