Ben Botkin and Audri Vernier wedding photos on Doug's FB

[Rueinthesky]

She is really cute. "This woman given to this man" makes me want to vomit.

[Aurora]

She let her husband choose the HOUSE? That she didn't even like? I mean, the minivan's bad enough, but c'mon, make a mutual decision on the place where you're going to live for ideally your WHOLE LIFE. :shock:

[emmiedahl]

I love how she is like, "I hate my house and my car, my husband chooses to make poverty level wages and I have to homeschool even though I would prefer not to! Submission success story!"

FAIL

[pfamilygal]

The really stupid thing is, she is going back to work because he doesn't make enough money and they have no insurance. And she is constantly bitching about him.

My friend says straight up that she won't be paying for her daughter to take this expensive world-view class her boys are taking. Because she won't need that much education.

She says that her sons are free to marry whom they please, though she hopes that they listen to their parent's advice. But if God is really speaking to her daughter, he'll also tell her daddy. So if her daughter decides she wants to go to college or get married, her daddy has to give the okay. But she insists that men and women are equal. Then why does the daughter get less education and have to have daddy's stamp of approval?

I want all my kids to follow Christ and be capable of hearing his voice. I want all of them to be yielded to Him and desire following Him with all their hearts. I just don't think that their ability or responsibility for doing so depends on what's in their underwear.

[duplessis3]

I enjoyed the government conspiring to say that anyone who goes to church more than once a week is in a cult. I know many of you already think Unitarian Universalism is some kind of wacky non-controlling cult, but it is nice to hear that the governmment will be telling us that.

[ppmath]

"The really stupid thing is, she is going back to work because he doesn't make enough money and they have no insurance. And she is constantly bitching about him."

I love how she blames Obama for this.

[emmiedahl]

I enjoyed the government conspiring to say that anyone who goes to church more than once a week is in a cult. I know many of you already think Unitarian Universalism is some kind of wacky non-controlling cult, but it is nice to hear that the governmment will be telling us that.

ikr? I went once and they sucked me in with a pumpkin carving party and a book club. OH NOES I AM IN A CULT :lol:

[Witsec7]

ikr? I went once and they sucked me in with a pumpkin carving party and a book club. OH NOES I AM IN A CULT :lol:

Be grateful that didn't get you to volunteer for a committee :lol:

[marmalade]

Ask friends #1 and 8 if they know the definition of a strawman. They're both quite adept at building them when their train of "debate" fails them.

I'd ask F1 what she found when she studied the Greek and Hebrew connotations of "submission." She never bothered to explain the WHY. Par for the course, as was the BLAME THE DEMOCRAP for the lack of jobs when it was the guy before him (whom they likely voted for, waving their little flags) who allowed the economy to collapse in the first place. IIRC, the housing bubble burst long before Obama was inaugurated and the stock market tanked on the day of the first McCain/Obama debate (I recall that one because I was at the Shakespeare Festival at the time and we watched the debate with interest in our hotel room, over takeout dinner before we saw Othello that night).

If I posted that, my friends would have a big laugh, even the ones with the ® designation; I don't know of a single wife who buys into the submissive shit, even the conservative Christians, many of whom work or they wouldn't have a roof over their heads.

[pfamilygal]

ikr? I went once and they sucked me in with a pumpkin carving party and a book club. OH NOES I AM IN A CULT :lol:

I got invited to a homeschooling get together the other day. Paid my $20 before reading their "beliefs" which include that a man must be the President of the homeschool group. Even though it's made up of ladies. Who actually do the homeschooling.

BARF! I want my money back!

And we're up to 94 on the fb thread now. I have officially unfriended Friend #1 since she wrote " I am not offended. God's truth will reign despite your silly opposition. One day."

Yes, the theological F.U.

Nice.

[Aurora]

I got invited to a homeschooling get together the other day. Paid my $20 before reading their "beliefs" which include that a man must be the President of the homeschool group. Even though it's made up of ladies. Who actually do the homeschooling.

BARF! I want my money back!

And we're up to 94 on the fb thread now. I have officially unfriended Friend #1 since she wrote " I am not offended. God's truth will reign despite your silly opposition. One day."

Yes, the theological F.U.

Nice.

Haha, awesome. I hope you wrote back "but you ARE unfriended!"

please, post some more of the discussion!

[pfamilygal]

We're up to 139 now. Crazy.

Friend #11:

VF = VERY FUCKED! Just saying.....

Friend #2:

Ephesians 5: 21-24 " Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything."

Seems pretty clear to me that "the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church." Therefore, the husband is the final authority in the home. As someone I know if fond of saying "Wife's word is golden, but Husband's word is final." "So also wives SHOULD submit to their husbands in EVERYTHING"

Knowing some of these "VF" types, as you call them, I think you're wrong. The husbands want to be the provider for their family so that the wife can focus on her job (making a home, caring for children) That is beyond a full-time job! It's 24/7/365, so if my husband wants me to stay at home and he's willing to work to make that possible, then I'm staying at home! Women who have jobs still have to see to their household responsibilities while they are at work.

I know some "VF type" young ladies who are career women. They continue their careers until the children arrive, then stay home to raise them (oh, wait! That'd be me, wouldn't it?) When the children are raised (or at least old enough for mom to be away some) I can return to my career- if I choose to, or not, because my husband has given me that choice.

Friend #11

And to all those Women who have giving themselves to the "Man", it is 5:00 o'clock and the "Man" will be home soon... You all better get dinner on the table, ASAP.

6 hours ago · Like

My dad:

Call or email your Dad - you know your former boss lol!

Friend #1:

I think the stupid thing here is that apparently some women feel as though there is a possibility of being in charge of anything. God set up the world so that everything is under submission. Does your husband tell your pastor how to run his church? Does the pastor tell Jesus how to lead the church? Does the janitor tell the CEO how to run a company? Did Jesus tell God that there was a better way than the cross!? Give me a break! Submission is here to teach us to trust God, not the husband, pastor, CEO, but GOD. I can trust God to lead my husband to make the right decisions because God loves me! HE LOVES ME! He is going to make my husband do right by me, if I will let him!

Friend #11, that is just stupid. We have not given ourselves to "the man" but to God. I personally live to bless God, my husband, my children and the community because I want to. I want to see what true love is by sacrificing selfishness for a more wothy cause. My children will rise up and call me blessed and my husband's heart will safely trust in me.

My sister:

‎"Wife's word is golden, but Husband's word is final." Really? Oy. Yeah, I'm so thankful we don't live that way!

Friend #11:

the whole thing is STUPID. And, that it has consumed either of our day is even more STUPID. To each is their own...

Friend #12:

Wow, as an Atheist I find the idea that anyone would 'submit' in that sense particularly peculiar.

Since when is it acceptable to live in a house you don't like, drive a car you didn't want and homeschool just because you are married?

Sorry but it's just not right. My husband and I make joint decisions and of course we won't agree on everything but surely as adults we can come to agreements without me having to submit.

Friend #2

that just means that I can have my say, but if he disagrees his decision is final. Believe me, I have my say- a lot! Often he agrees with me, but sometimes (minivan, when I really wanted an SUV so we could tow things) he makes a different decision. It's OK. I still have good, reliable transportation that fits my whole family comfortably.

Friend #1:

Thank you, Friend #11, for understanding that to each is their own. I will never be a slave or owned, but I will live for my husband unto God happily with no regret. My husband cherishes me and never makes me feel like a possession.

Friend #13:

‎2 questions. 1) is "transfer of authority" an alternate verbage for giving your daughter's hand in marriage? I don't get it... and 2), what does VF stand for?

Friend #1:

Friend #12, unless you have your way all the time, you are submitting. If you do not get everything you want all the time, then there are things in which you defer. "That" is submitting!

Friend #2:

Friend #12, I didn't like the house when we looked at it, but I knew it was the right home for our family. I didn't like the minivan, but I knew it was the best choice for our family. And finally, while home school was not MY choice method of education at first and I reluctantly began, I realized soon what a blessing it would be for my children and my family. Now, 7 (house), 4 (car) and 11 (home school) years later, I realize that my husband's decisions on those things were the wisest choices we could have made- and guess what? NONE of them were mine! And they weren't even 50/50 at the time. I am so glad I made the conscious decision to submit to his authority over our family- I did it protesting loudly, but I did it! And that was the best decision I could make for our family and our marriage.

Friend #14

what do you have against submission? you do it everyday when you pay your taxes, stand in line at the grocery store, stop at a red light, go to your job, drive on the right side of the road, we submit everyday to someone..i'm glad i do to the person who loves me the most..i'm not owned..and true leadership is not micromanaging the other person anyway. larry and i have mutual trust to spend money and do things that we want because we always have the other person's interests at heart.

F2:

Mine won't be home until 6-6:30, but dinner is ready! So is breakfast & lunch for tomorrow.The children were educated, part of the home was cleaned, and I was able to help a friend in need for several hours today.

F12:

You can package it anyhow you like, but it's still one sided compared to how my family is.

F1:

F12, could you explain to me what you mean by one sided?

F2:

F13, 1) yes, I believe it means the same thing, just different verbage. 2) VF= Vision Forum

Me:

I think if we could do our wedding over we would not use the "give this woman" stuff. As is, both of my parents "gave" me. When our daughters and sons get married, I hope that all of the parents join together to bless their union. The kids will give themselves to each other of their own will.

I have a problem with submission, F14, when it is not a choice. And I have a problem with submission when it is lifelong submission based on ownership of a certain kind of genitals.

I believe in God. I believe in the Bible. But I believe our understanding is skewed. I hear so much more from all these "family restoration" ministries about men leading/women submitting than I do about men sacrificially loving and laying down their lives for their wives. I even read on one their blogs how the husband says he homeschools the children - his wife just carries out his plans. He delegates it to her, but he is the one who does it. Except she actually does all the schooling!!! But in his mind he would not be fulfilling the command in Deuteronomy to teach our children if he was not officially "in charge" of it.

Dh and I both submit to each other in areas. We both have unique giftings and it would be foolish for him to make all decisions just because he is a dude. And F1. It is inane to think that just because I don't think "authority" over me should be given from my dad to my husband means I want to be in charge of everything. Have you studied logic? Because that is wild, illogical leap.

F1:

Yes, I have studied logic and frankly has no bearing on God's creation. Is it logical to praise God when you are in prison? Is it logical to sit in the belly of a whale for 3 days? Why is authority such a bad word to you? You have authority over your children. Your pastor has authority over his church. The judge has authority over the courtroom. There is no difference except that satan does not want families to work so you have a problem with being under the authority of your husband. You are under the authority of the law, the grocery store, social mores, but heaven forbid you should be under the authority of your own husband. Ridiculous.

F2:

submission is the voluntary giving of authority. Every time you stop at a stop light, you submit to authority. Every time you go to work, you submit to authority. Every time you buy groceries, you submit to authority. Every time you sit in church, you submit to authority.

You expect your children to submit to your authority over them as a parent, yet, in the context of your marriage you don't see the same as necessary? I want to encourage you to do a word study on "to submit." It isn't what you think it is! That study was the *hardest* Bible study I have ever done! I did not like it, but I could not ignore what God was teaching me.

Now, I view the submission of the wife to the authority of her husband, who loves her as Christ loves the church & is willing to give up his life for her, as a beautiful picture of the gospel message and the structure of the church.

Me:

F1, there is no point in talking to you if you admit that you are illogical.

F2, there is a difference between my expectations of my children and my relationship with my husband. For one thing, their submission is for a season. I do not expect them to submit to me as an adult. Also, they are children. They are not as wise as I am at this time in their lives.

This is not the same as marriage. My husband is not automatically smarter than I am. And it would be a disservice to both of us to put all the pressure on his shoulders, while neglecting the gifts God has given me for our relationship and our lives.

F1:

So, pfamilygal, you are saying that you are bound by logic. OK, enough said.

F15:

Wow. Did you ladies check with your masters...er, um.. your husbands before spending all day lecturing Tamara on her opinion?

F1:

When you are submitting Biblically, there is no pressure on anyone's shoulders. Your husband seeks God's guidance just as you seek it. You both trust that God is faithful to teach your husband what to do just as God is faithful to teach you how to have a relationship with your children. Submitting to your husband has a reason just as your children submitting to you. NO ONE said that it was the same reason. The reason you should submit to your husband is the same reason that Jesus's submitted His will to God, that they would be One, of the same flesh and spirit, both equally fulfilling the will and purposes of God.

F15, you sure did miss it! LOL!

My sister:

We homeschool, but if I didn't want to, I sure wouldn't be doing it! And I joke that my husband is the principal of our school... but we also joke that I'm the superintendent, so I trump him for educational decisions. Joking aside, we just don't see any need for wifely submission. We're grown ups- we can make mutually satisfying decisions and compromise- both of us.

F16:

Well since I believe that the roles of authority in the church are genderless, my personal opinion probably holds the same amount t of the credibility to the VF peeps as the gap here who is an atheist. Actually I am probably worse. :/ I probably shouldn't say anything to my mom who is a lead pastor and through her ministry has ministered healing and leadership to thousands around the world and who *gasp* is in authority over men in the congregation. Just thought I would throw that into the ring :)

My sister:

you might want to ask (my dh) to have pfamilygal call. He is her commander-in-chief now, not you ;).

F16:

pfamilygal, I have a really good friend who is getting sucked in to the vf thing. Is there anything I can do to help stop the slide?

My sister:

run in front of her and scream "stop! danger ahead!"?? I don't know, F16, that's tough! Is she educated? I think a lot of women that fall for VF philosophies are less educated. Not all, but a lot. I think women with lower self-confidence can fall for it, too, because they start to believe they don't have value as a woman and that their man is more capable than they are. It is a scary and sad road to slide down!

F17:

There is a difference between submission and subjugation, and there are men that confuse the two. Ephesians 5:22 doesn't cancel out verse 21 or any of the other verses in Scripture that instruct us to prefer others and love them as ourselves. I got into a discussion with a man that believed that the wife submitting to her husband superseded everything else. He was very arrogant and accused me of being a radical feminist and pretty much said I would drag people to hell with me because I didn't agree with him. His wife's purpose was to do what he said. She was not to submit to any other authority, not even their pastor, and certainly no other man because he might use her for sex then. She couldn't work outside the home because she would be under someone else's authority. She was to defer to him in all things. He made it pretty clear that she was HIS wife and only HE had power over her. Women were a lower, weaker order because Eve was deceived. That's why they were to be quiet and be under a father or husband all of their lives. This man claimed to love and cherish his wife, but from the other things he said, it was more like telling me "I love having my own personal bondslave."

My sister:

That would be the scary end of the slippery slope, F17! It scares me. So thankful my marriage doesn't look like that.

F17:

She is sharp as a tack but not much post high school formal education. She is a long time internet friend whose passion I deeply admire. She is someone who lea s into legalism. She always has. She actually got set free fro. The southern baptists legalism and felt called to ministry as a woman then stumbled across mark driscill and mars hill. She loves meaty theology so it really touched a part of her that I believe is meant to be a prophet/ mouthpiece of god. She is truly anointed to minister. But has now bought hook line and sinker into that whole mars hill group:( I still try to talk to her about it but it really is kind of lime a cult. Sorry if that offends some but its true. I just keep praying for her and believing that she will have an experience like you did.

F1:

Do not get me wrong that there are men who use "submission" to rule over their wives, but the same is true on the other side where women rule over their husbands. It is absolutely ridiculous to say that all women who believe in letting their husband lead the home are subjugated slaves. Pfamilygal, my only really problem with you is labeling people into one belief system or another. There are many views and extremes on all of them. Do not judge a book by it's cover even if the cover is very familiar.

Me:

These folks have a very public ministry. They seek to influence others with their views. As such, they deserve a critical eye to see if what they are teaching is true. And when many people are being hurt by a teaching, it is especially important to look at it closely. I honestly don't really care if you agree with me or not, F1. You support the Pearls, for goodness sake.

I feel like I MUST, as a responsible parent and child of God, evaluate teachings and beliefs. And the things these folks espouse look all shiny and pretty on the outside but are pure poison on the inside.

I don't want to offend you, but frankly, I think little of your judgement. And that is okay. We don't have to agree. I didn't say horrible things about these people. I said that the idea/phrasing of "transfer of authority" as if she were some sort of merchandise or property made me want to vomit. If you want to treat your daughters like that, I guess you can. But my daughters will be strong, empowered women who listen to God for themselves. We will teach them to honor their parents and listen to our advise, but we do not own them and they will not be transferred to anyone, anymore than we would our sons.

F17:

Oh, we get to talk about how to judge books now? Well, I'd have to agree with pfamilygal on that one. I wouldn't take advice on relationships from women that had never had one.

F1:

Pfamilygal, I am not offended. God's truth will reign despite your silly opposition. One day.

Me:

‎(((eye roll))) Yes, F1, you alone know God's truth. That is the final straw there. You are clearly insane.

F18:

Wow! What a thread! It saddens me to see the effects of the feminist movement, the government, and "political correctness" still playing a role in how we, as Christian women, perceive submission. Proper Biblical submission is a place of comfort. I, for one, am happy that I do not have the responsibility and accountability for leading our family, and for each decision, as my husband does. If Biblical marriage is lived out properly, the husband not only values his wife's wisdom on matters, but SEEKS it, and will weigh it heavily before making a final decision, especially one where there may not be agreement. Lynn already shared God's Word on the matter in Ephesians 5, yet we're still debating it here. God was clear that husbands are to submit to Christ, and wives are to submit to their husbands. Christ came as a SERVANT LEADER. Our husbands are to do no less. If they are truly submitted to Jesus and are leading in that way, then it is a privilege and a place of refuge for a wife to submit. As in anything, balance is the key. It's no different than the link posted about the Pearl's and corporal punishment. Obviously, the parents in the article did not understand the Biblical way to spank, and therefore corporal punishment itself is being attacked rather than the parents' administration of it. As far as there being wrong teaching out there, that's been the case since the beginning of time and, unfortunately, it will continue. That is why WE are ultimately responsible for knowing God's Word, and weighing/testing everything according to it. Just as in the garden, Satan is constantly lying and perverting the ways of God. He DOES NOT want Biblical marriage to work properly! It has been his mission since the beginning to destroy families, and I believe this is one way he does it! Don't let him win in your marriage! If your church is not teaching proper Biblical submission, then speak up and/or leave! If you're listening to other preachers who have an unbalanced teaching regarding this matter, tune them out! If your husband is not leading with a servant's heart, and a desire to truly listen to your wisdom before making a decision, then ask if he would be agreeable to receive mentoring in this area from someone who is doing it well! When Biblical submission works properly, where the husband is submitted to Jesus, and the wife to her husband, then our children will see our example, and will more likely submit to their parents, and ultimately to God as well. I challenge you all! Don't throw the baby out with the bath water here! BE that couple who does this excellently, as unto the Lord! What a legacy you will leave in your wake...

F17:

‎" If Biblical marriage is lived out properly, the husband not only values his wife's wisdom on matters, but SEEKS it, and will weigh it heavily before making a final decision, especially one where there may not be agreement." I agree with this. But we can't take one verse out of context. Yes, wives should submit to their husbands. Husbands should also submit to their wives. Christians are to submit to one another. We are all called to be servants. This is not politically correct in the least.

F18:

And pfamilygal, F1 was not admitting to being illogical. She was pointing out, and rightly so, that God's Word "seems" illogical to the world. She gave good examples to which I'll add, "the last shall be first, and the first shall be last; it is better to give than to receive; etc. God's Word IS illogical to a fallen world! BUT, it shouldn't be to us! We are to love God with all our heart, soul, MIND, and strength. That means our "logic" must agree with God's. Our marriages cannot and should not conform to the world, but to the Word! Because of that, Biblical marriage and submission will always be ridiculed and mocked because it makes no sense to unbelievers.

Me:

F18, I am just seeing this whole patriarchy bullcrap ruining lives and I am sick of it. Many women I know who paint this shiny picture of idyllic situations are lying. I know because in private they tell me the truth and it's all bad. I don't know any man who has been made better by having a wife that is subservient. But I know many who have become abusive jerks. I know many daughters who are being shafted in their educations and options because of this "biblical" patriarchy nonsense.

There are MANY Christians who are egalitarian. MANY Christians who interpret Scripture differently and still really love Jesus.

Yes, I would call myself a feminist. A feminist believes that men and women are equal. I agree. God made male and female in His image. It doesn't mean I'm a Christ-hating lesbian. Or that I don't believe the Bible. What I do believe is that we interpret things based on our experience and often not on what they Biblical writers actually meant.

Check this out: http://www.theopedia.com/Egalitarianism

Dh and I do want to be a couple who changes the world - but with the love of Christ, not with rigid gender roles. In fact, I don't ever think I heard Jesus ever say anything binding women. He had women among His followers.

F16:

So none of those who espouse this wonderful godly "complementarianism" has addressed the slavery issue. For centuries there are verses that discuss slaves and how to treat them. The bible tells us how best to fulfill the master slave relationship in a godly way. Yet we now recognize slavery as abhorrent. How is this different?

For ‎* centuries CHURCHES taught that slavery was a part of christianity

And I consider myself a believer and it makes sense to me in the same way the jews were requiring the greek converts to get circumcised and Paul told them that it was wrong to bring them to christ under the old covenant......

F17:

F18, I don't believe I took the Ephesians 5 verse "out of context". This verse is specifically dealing with marriage, while the "submit to one another" verse is dealing with the church. I grow weary of seeing women take THAT verse our of context, and misinterpreting it to mean husbands and wives are to submit to one another with no headship or authority as mentioned in Ephesians 5.

F20:

Yes it says "Wives submit to your husbands" but it also says "Husband LOVE your wives, as Christ love the church" Christ died for the church, so I'm thinking that if husbands really loved/cared for/ and were considerate of their wives, being compassionate and so unselfish as Christ is, there wouldn't be a submission topic/issue. God created eve from the rib of Adam, not the foot so he could trample over her and bark orders. Jesus does not bark orders at the church he says LOVE one another, and Love your neighbor as yourself. I believe the man is the head of the household spiritually. But I also believe that God created me to be my husbands helpmate. Not slave.

Me:

Here's another article for you to consider: http://www.masstheology.com/2007/10/02/ ... emis-cult/ .

I Timothy 2 and the Artemis Cult » Theology for the Masses

www.masstheology.com

The Greek/Roman female deity Artemis/Diana had a twin brother named Apollo. When...

See More

F17:

Pfamilygal, this "whole patriarchy bullcrap" was insituted by God. Just because man abuses it does not mean we should throw it out! Man abuses God's gift of sex too through rape, incest, homosexuality, and abuse, but I don't think one would advocate married couples to not have sex! Again, instead of raging against submission and patriarchy, be intentional about doing it well, and setting an example for those who are not.

F20:

and furthermore, if God is speaking to my husband about things, chances are Gods going to encourage me in my Sprit. Because two become one in the union of marriage.

F16:

I guess no one has a response to the slavery question......that answers my questions then.

F18:

F17- It makes no sense that those other verses should be nullified because my husband and I are married. So should my husband submit to other women in the body of Christ, but have no regard for me?

No idea what to say about the slavery issue other than it would be rather difficult to love your slave as yourself and still treat him/her as we usually think of a slave being treated.

Me:

patriarchy - as in Old Testament patriarchy - was described in the Bible. It was never set forth as the ideal. In pre-fall Genesis, man was not set up as the head and woman as the subordinate. That was part of the curse. Helpmeet means an equal, opposing force. The same word is used to describe God assisting us. It doesn't mean sidekick.

I agree with F16 and F 18. Because this rigid, forced hierarchy destroys oneness.

F17:

Wow F18! You def twisted my words! I NEVER said one scripture "nullified" the other! What I did say was that a wife cannot "claim" the other scripture as reason not to submit. And I think I already made it very clear in my first post that God expects the husband to be a SERVANT leader, to LOVE his wife as Christ loves the church, and to SEEK her wisdom.

about an hour ago · Like

F18:

WWell, if verse 21 doesn't apply to my husband within our marriage because of verse 22, then wouldn't that be nullifying it?

Me:

What about I Cor 7:4 The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife." Do you not see the contradiction to complimentarianism there? I think a Biblical marriage features both parties submitted to God and both parties serving each other.

F17:

I didn't say it didn't apply. I said it can't nullify Ephesians 5. If your husband is acting in correct Bibical headship, I'd bet there are times he submits to you. BUT he is still the spiritual leader of the family.

I Cor 7:4 is referring to sex.

F18:

Yep, and you don't have to be feminist or politically correct to understand that.

F17, "What I did say was that a wife cannot 'claim' the Scripture as reason not to submit." I don't think anyone in this conversation is doing that.

F17:

F16 - I really need to sign off FB, but hated to leave your "slavery" question unaddressed. Unfortunately, I cannot do it justice, but I will tell you that slavery in Biblical times was not the same as we think of in American History, Civil War period, etc. It was a kind provision and gesture to those who were in debt and could not pay, offering them food and shelter in exchange for the "master" paying their debt. It was a means to get back on their feet (so to speak). Exodus 21 speaks of this, and also Leviticus 25 and 27 talk about "Jubilee" whereby every 50 years the slave was to be set free, and all debts extinguished. Again, sorry I do not have time to be more exhaustive in my answer. If you'll Google "Biblical Slavery" you can find some pretty good articles there about the subject.

F2: Pfamilygal, you said "Helpmeet means an equal, opposing force." a Helpmeet is not an opposing force! Most commentary on Genesis 2:18 indicates that a "helpmeet" is a helper- not an opposer.

1 Peter 3: 7 says "Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers." If your husband is treating you like that- "as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life"- then following 1 Peter 3:5 "For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to adorn themselves. They submitted themselves to their own husbands" is a blessing.

Again, I have to encourage you to study every occurrence of the word "to submit" in scripture. It is eye-opening. Once, I believed as you- that my husband and I were equal partners in this thing called marriage & family, but after that study, I realized that he has much more to answer to before God. I can better help him be the head of our family by being his helpmeet and not his equal partner. He listens to me, he considers my opinion. Usually, we agree, but sometimes not. Sometimes he realizes that I am right, sometimes he doesn't. I respect his decisions either way.

F18:

A few days ago, I was thinking of the verse that says "giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel..." I had never really thought about what it means. I'd just heard it used by people like that arrogant man that I mentioned earlier, to mean that women were lesser beings. But what kind of weaker vessel would you give honor to? Kinda gives a different perspective.

Me:

But isn't sex a big issue regarding submission? I know it is a huge issue in most marriages.

F18:

F2, I believe my husband is the head of our home, but I do not believe we are not equals. We work as a team. We are one. We are equally yoked. To me, him being the head does not make us unequal. Perhaps that is part of where our differences lie.

F17:

So,F18, if there is a disagreement on something, who makes the final decision?

F2:

Give honor to a weaker vessel who is helping you achieve your dreams/goals? I think so! How about giving honor to the vessel who educates the children, cooks the dinner, and maintains the home front while you go out there and, as Dave Ramsey says "kill it and drag it home." (translate: make some $$)

Sex doesn't have to be an issue. If the husband is loving his wife as Christ loved the church and being considerate and giving honor to her, and she is being his helpmeet and submitting to his authority as unto the Lord, then sex is a pleasurable expression of Biblical one flesh joined together.

Me:

Not opposing as in antagonism. Opposing like ying/yang ish. Both embodying important, necessary things for the marriage. Both necessary

F17:

I dont think it's possible to acknowledge your husband as the head, while also believing you're both equal. It has to be one or the other...

F18:

Maybe in your home it does.

F2:

Ying: one cares for the home/family/children, Yang: one provides the financial means to do so, ish: they both work together to achieve this goal, but the Bible is clear that the one who answers to God for how that all turned out is the husband, whether he is the ying or the yang.

F17:

I'd really like to know how that plays out. What does happen when you disagree? Who does make the final decision?

Me:

We kind of go with the "give a crap" factor. Whoever cares more about the issue or is more invested in it. We will pray about it and revisit the issue if we can't agree. But we believe God speaks to BOTH of us.

F16:

The point about slavery is that provisions were made in scripture in the new testament. Heck there was a whole book about it, philemon I believe? And yet we understand that slavery is a horrible practice because no matter how generous or good a slave owner is it is simply not right for one human to have ownership of another. So regardless of the provisions made in slave ownership we do not practice nor support slavery.

I see "submission" in the same vein. These verses were written addressing something specific in that church but the application to current marriages is out of touch with context. When I look at jesus I see someone who broke down walls and pushed against patriarchy and male dominated culture. He came to set us free. And as we have found in america separate does NOT mean equal. Do you really think jesus wanted any kind of wall or curtain between himself and any believer? So the man is able to approach the throne room but a woman must do it through her husband? That doesn't make sense.

F17:

I guess I'm referring to times when you BOTH "give a crap" really strongly! Then what happens? For instance, we recently had a situation with one of our daughters. I had a VERY different opinion of what I thought should happen/consequences than my husband did. I shared my point and my concerns ONCE (don't nag), then prayerfully left it up to my husband. I did not agree with how he handled the situation, but took comfort in knowing that he seriously considered my opinion and wisdom, and that he will be accountable to the Lord in that matter.

F18:

We do. Or we agree to disagree. It depends on the circumstances. We acknowledge that we both have different strengths and weaknesses that are meant to compliment each other. If it's some kind of decision that requires action, then we have to take into consideration how it would play out and how it would affect our family. Honestly, he leaves a lot up to me, and if it was something he is more knowledgeable about, I would probably seek his opinion out. We don't have a lot of disagreements of any consequence.

F2:

Oh, I completely agree that God speaks to both husbands and wives, and I believe that God uses wives to spur husbands on (something we need to be very careful using) but whether you make the decision or he does, he's going to have to give an account for it one day!

We recently had a situation involving a child too. My husband and I disagreed on how it needed to be handled. I told him what I thought and why. We all 3 prayed about how to handle the situation, and my husband and that child handled the situation together. I still don't think it was the best decision, but I respect how he handled it.

F16:

Btw do a study on weaker. It doesn't actually mean weak. Just fyi and thank you kjv for screwing up the interpretation. Um slavery is slavery. There is only a slight difference between indentured servitude and slavery.

F18:

F16- "So the man is able to approach the throne room but a woman must do it through her husband? " In the case of Mary, she WAS the throne room!"

F17:

F16, who said a woman must go through a man to approach God?!! Lets be careful here and not twist words. The whole point of marriage is to show us the relationship between Jesus (the Groom) and the Church (the Bride). It's a beautiful picture!

F18:

Wait a minute... If I screw things up really bad, you think it is my husband that should be accountable to God?

F16:

In discussion.g the priesthood of the husband I thought the idea was that the husband was the priest of the home? Isn't that how the it handled it? All the others could only approach the holy of holies through the priest?

F18:

That's an interesting question. I do understand the home to be as a little church and the husband to be the priest of the home, but I do NOT think I have to go through my husband to talk to God.

F17:

Obvisouly, you are accountable for your own decisions. But, yes F18, your husband, as the leader of your home, is accountable for what goes on there. If you'll look at the account of Adam and Eve, Adam was on the sidelines watching and listening to the conversation between Eve and Satan and did nothing. The Word to not eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was first given, by God to Adam. Adam shirked his responsibility to stand up and cover Eve as the enemy was attempting to deceive her by twisting God's Word. He chose to remain silent. Likewise, it's not healthy or Biblical to have a wife making the bulk of the decisions in the family. That allows the man to remain "silent", and not take his place as leader.

F18:

He may be held accountable for what he had influence in, but I can't imagine he would be held accountable for decisions I made that he did not take part in. That is like saying all the men whose wives cheat on them are going to be held accountable for the cheating because they were supposed to be heads of their homes. So if the husband cheats, I'm guessing the wife is not held accountable because she wasn't the head?

F17:

F16, only Jesus is the High Priest (Hebrews4:14-16). When He died on the cross, the veil was ripped, allowing ALL direct access to God. Husbands are sometimes referred to as the "priest" of their family in regard to the fact that they are accountable to God for the leading, training in the Word, and spiritual health of their familiy.

F18:

And, F17, smart leaders delegate. That's a decision they get to make.

F17:

F18, although your husband certainly cannot control everything you do, he is responsible for you. I was speaking of times when husbands are silent, don't engage, and do not take their proper place as leader, but relinquish it to the woman.

[pfamilygal]

Holy cow that took a long time to fix for FJ (didn't want to include their names).

[tehgoobster]

Yes, I have studied logic and frankly has no bearing on God's creation.

Yikes! It really is impossible to dialog with someone who believes that because they will be impervious to reason if/when it goes against what they already believe.

[Aurora]

Wow! That was intense.

I think you convinced some people, though obviously not ex-FB friend #1.

I am even too tired to snark on anything now, but it sounds like an FJ vs. fundies discussion in miniature. Interesting to see all your friends' different perspectives. Thank you for posting! :)

[bionicmlle]

...so back to Ben and Audri.... (I am a soulless woman who works outside the home so am just catching up!)

No kiss picture but... Ben's hangin' to the right, in my estimation.

[annalena]

I dislike the red cheeks and ears. I've always thought that's really unattractive on guys. I'm mean, I know. It's not his fault.

[annalena]

Just needed to state again I am no one's chattel. Not even legally. Where does she get that from?

[MamaJunebug]

The really stupid thing is, she is going back to work because he doesn't make enough money and they have no insurance. And she is constantly bitching about him.

My friend says straight up that she won't be paying for her daughter to take this expensive world-view class her boys are taking. Because she won't need that much education.

She says that her sons are free to marry whom they please, though she hopes that they listen to their parent's advice. But if God is really speaking to her daughter, he'll also tell her daddy. So if her daughter decides she wants to go to college or get married, her daddy has to give the okay. But she insists that men and women are equal. Then why does the daughter get less education and have to have daddy's stamp of approval?

I want all my kids to follow Christ and be capable of hearing his voice. I want all of them to be yielded to Him and desire following Him with all their hearts. I just don't think that their ability or responsibility for doing so depends on what's in their underwear.

Welcome, pfamilygal! I like the cut of your jib.

(is the P an homage to Wodehouse's Psmith, by chance?) (doesn't matter one way or the other, I'm glad you're here :) )

[annalena]

Well, at least she's straightforward about it, you have to give her that. At least she doesn't say it's all her daughter's own wish.

[slickcat79]

submission is the voluntary giving of authority. Every time you stop at a stop light, you submit to authority. Every time you go to work, you submit to authority. Every time you buy groceries, you submit to authority. Every time you sit in church, you submit to authority.

You expect your children to submit to your authority over them as a parent, yet, in the context of your marriage you don't see the same as necessary? I want to encourage you to do a word study on "to submit." It isn't what you think it is! That study was the *hardest* Bible study I have ever done! I did not like it, but I could not ignore what God was teaching me.

:roll: This one irritates me more than most of them. Is she really so disconnected that she can't understand how different the "submission" is in the cases she offers? When you stop at a stop light, you do it because it is a mutually-agreed upon rule that benefits society as a whole. Someone could die if you don't. And the police officer who could ticket you for not stopping only has the authority because they've undergone specific training and have proven that they have the appropriate judgment to make calls like that. Your boss has authority over you only to a certain extent, and again, only because they have the necessary experience/qualifications to direct your work. I'm not sure what she means by submitting to authority when buying groceries, and I'm not sure you necessarily have to submit to anything when you go to church. Plus there are plenty of people who never go to church and still manage to live successful lives.

Even the example with the kids makes no sense. As was mentioned, you only have authority over your kids for a finite period of time, though most fundies would disagree with that. You are also responsible for your children's actions up to a certain point; you may even be held legally accountable, so there's a very real need to see that they understand appropriate behavior. In addition, you're supposed to have age/experience/wisdom that your children lack, which is really the basis of your authority over them. No one in those situations is simply handed authority based on the fact that they were born with a penis.

*Disclaimer: I know that all situations do not actually shake down like that. Some people in positions of authority get there by underhanded means, or when they don't deserve it. Also parents are not always right. But in nearly all cases, authority is not handed out based on something as arbitrary as sex.

[Kishiria]

Looking at Audri, she doesn't seem to have gotten much chubbier since the wedding. Maybe she and Ben are (gasp!) waiting a little on having the first Botkinling. I do hope so; Audri always looks happy and confident and I want that to continue.

[Deleted12]

I dislike the red cheeks and ears. I've always thought that's really unattractive on guys. I'm mean, I know. It's not his fault.

I actually dig it more often than not. The only complexions that I don't care for on guys are the Jersey Shore tanning bed complexion and some Asian complexions that look unhealthy to me.

Now that I am thinking about it, there are actually a few complexions floating around in that family. Lucas, Anna Sofia, and David look like they have a slight tan without being ruddy; Ben and Noah have the ruddy complexion; and Elizabeth and Isaac are fairly pale, but he gets more sun than she does.

Why do all three of the older boys have the slicked back hair that emphasizes the receding hairline? I don't understand it!

And while I'm snarking on this picture, why do aBot and eBot look so dressed down? Both of them look like they were wandering by and wound up in the photo shoot with everyone else.

[Karsaroni]

And while I'm snarking on this picture, why do aBot and eBot look so dressed down? Both of them look like they were wandering by and wound up in the photo shoot with everyone else.

I'm also puzzled as to why AS would essentially wear a tarp around her neck. I get the whole scarf look thing that girls are wearing these days but her's seems a little overboard to me.

[emmiedahl]

They all look so done-up... except for the mom. She always looks like the odd-one-out in their family pics. I wonder what that dynamic is like.