Ben Botkin and Audri Vernier wedding photos on Doug's FB

[Pclee]

Has this been noticed before? if it has, sorry.

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set= ... 935&type=3

I just kinda feel :doh: at the photo of Ben singing. What was he thinking.

sidenote: is anyone friends with Dougie on FB?

[memmy]

it's not "available" :( i want to see

[FuManchu]

I like the way it's referred to as a 'transfer of authority'. Romantic or what?

[Pclee]

memmy, you need to be logged into FB I guess.

well, i thought there was a wedding-news clampdown from Dougie? and the Seppi's removed their blog post about the wedding.

Then why of all places would you have it on YOUR fb, Dougie?

[memmy]

oh yup yup doh!!! :) thanks

i checked out the seppi's blog -- they scare me a just a touch!

[Sweetpea1]

Multiple side hugs going on... meh. I do like her dress, though.

[annalena]

1- she has the prettiest dress i have seen on a fundy bride so far. 2- why in the world is the father standing up there with her? that's weird. 3- she's way prettier than him. 4- "a picture of true love"? a picture of a crush, maybe. true love has to be proven through going through stuff together. 5- no kiss pic?!?! too defrauding?? 6. the "Seppi family" commented. Can someone explain to me quickly who that is? also, way to take the family obsession WAY too far by having a joint facebook account!!! 7. am i the only one who has mental images of the wedding night whenever i see a fundy wedding? :twisted: i don't usually have with regular weddings, but since they make SUCH a big deal of saving it all for that one night, i can't help but thinking about how it may go. my guess on this one: ummm, akward.

edit- isn't that dress too defrauding? you can, like, kinda see where her shoulders are and maybe an inch of skin? also, the sleeves are see-through?

[ophelia]

seems to be a much more fun wedding than the nadia and davids wedding. I don't really get why they chose to do it different the last time with all that testimonies and having the family on stage etc. Does their holiness extend with every wedding??

[Nurse Jenna]

"Ben reads his covenant viws" :o Proofreading please. Interns are sleeping on the job.

[duplessis3]

That dress is beautiful - I was surprised that much of her back was showing. They seem to be genuinely happy and like each other. The whole transfer of authority is creepy for sure.

[pfamilygal]

I just posted that squicky "transfer of authority" picture on my fb page with an "eww, VOMIT" caption. Started a shit-storm among my fundie friends. We're at 38 comments and counting.

[formergothardite]

I just posted that squicky "transfer of authority" picture on my fb page with an "eww, VOMIT" caption. Started a shit-storm among my fundie friends. We're at 38 comments and counting.

Oooh! Sounds amusing! Care to share any of the comments?

[CanadianHippie]

"Before the transfer of authority", "This woman is given to this man"... That last one followed by a "picture of true love"... Does not compute...

And if you notice... Ben reading his vows is captioned as such, Audri reading hers is captioned as "IMG_1648".

[annalena]

Oooh! Sounds amusing! Care to share any of the comments?

Ooooooh! Sounds like perfect Monday night entertainment!!! Can I friend you?!? Or can you copy it here???

[pfamilygal]

Oooh! Sounds amusing! Care to share any of the comments?

Friend 1:

You may not agree with it, but thankfully, it wasn't your choice. Be careful you do not tread where angels fear to trod.

about an hour ago · Like · 1

Me:

I'm sorry, but that is a load of crap. Women are not property. Our ownership is not transferred from our dads to our husbands. And you really think these stay-at-home-daughters have a choice? Really? When they've been told their entire lives that Daddy owns them and that making your own choices is sinful. It is a load of hogwash. Blech.

about an hour ago · Like · 3

Friend #2:

it's the same thing as the "who gives this woman to be wed to this man?" Was that phrase used at your wedding? It was at mine. This couple chose different words that make it more meaningful/symbolic to them. In my opinion, it isn't "ownership" that is being transferred, but protection- instead of her daddy being her protector, he gave that authority over to her husband. "Who gives this woman..." Now, her husband is charged with the responsibility to make sure she is provided for, that her needs (physical, emotional, spiritual) are met. It's the same thing as 99% of weddings, just different words that IMO clarify the whole point of the vows and the marital covenant.

about an hour ago · Like

Oh, I have been blessed to see a few courting relationships blossom into marriages. Those young women (some professionals, some not) continued to live at home until they were married. Those have to be the healthiest marriages I know!

about an hour ago · Like

Friend #3:

not to enter the debate, but legally we are our husbands property, called chattel... and our in reverse our husbands are our chattel as well. equal ownership.

about an hour ago · Like

Me:

Um, the same family had another son who recently wed. Included in the vows was the phrase, " I promise, David, to submit myself to you as to the Lord, being subject to you in everything, as the Church is subject to Christ. I will respect and honor you as my earthly lord and head." So I think this is a definitely a "man in charge, woman beneath him" type thing.

about an hour ago · Like

And yes, we belong to each other. But these marriages aren't set up that way. The man becomes the woman's new boss. It is not a marriage of mutual ownership and mutual submission. It is a marriage in which, magically, the one with the Y chromosome is somehow inherently better and more capable than the other and rules.

about an hour ago · Like

If they meant equal ownership, his parents should also have "given authority" over him to his bride. But this subculture is anti-woman. They can make it look as shiny and quaint as they want, but it is still a load of baloney.

about an hour ago · Like

Friend #4:

i agree with you and was hoping to be supportive in a logical way.

about an hour ago · Like

Friend #5:

And this is different from being conservative Muslim.. HOW?

about an hour ago · Like · 1

Me:

Oh, I know you and I are on the same page, Friend #4! I just hate seeing young women reading these shiny, pretty blogs and seeing this lovely picture as "God's way". They don't realize what they've gotten into until it is too late. I think the whole courting, never being alone with your spouse-to-be thing sounds nuts. We are encouraging our kids to befriend lots of people of both sexes. We want them to know how to interact with the opposite sex without acting like socially-retarded idiots. We will also be encouraging them to wait to date until they are seriously ready to look for a mate. Dating with purpose. And we will teach them that sexual appetites are normal and healthy, and that they need not be ashamed of feelings. They just need to control them until the time is right and they are married. This culture seems hypercontrolling and hyper-focused on sex and gender roles. It's kind of nutty.

about an hour ago · Like

Yes, Friend #5, how is it any different from my neighbors? I swear, if I didn't see who was talking, these girls would sound just like my neighbors. It's all about control and domination, clothed in words of concern over "guarding precious gifts."

about an hour ago · Like

Friend, #4

yes it is nutty and controlling and what they don't show is how many rebel because of it. what i have also seen is many of these daughters don't know how to separate from their parents authority after marriage.

59 minutes ago · Like

Friend #6

gross. And yuck. just going to stay with yuck :)

58 minutes ago · Like

Friend #4

I do want to also say though, like someone above pointed out, that beautiful marriages do come out of this background as well. I don't think its fair to say that buying into this philosphy means that the woman will be a doormat and the husband will be a dictator. I think that any marriage that is made of two individuals who sincerely want to honor the Lord in all that they do, will have a good marriage. Not that you won't have problems or challenges, because we do live in a sinful, fallen world, but God will work good in anything.

54 minutes ago · Like

Friend #6

I personally wish my husband was brainwashed, our marriage would sure be easier :)

52 minutes ago · Like

Friend #7

you do realize this (subject to you in everything, as the Church is subject to Christ. I will respect and honor you as my earthly lord and head) is scriptural don't you? If not I would check out ephesians chapter 5

51 minutes ago · Like

Me:

We were taught that when Ephesians says "submit," a more apt translation is "respect". Wives should respect their husbands, while husbands love their wives. I just think this whole transfer of ownership/authority is squicky to the max ("Let's all us menfolk get together and decide what to do with these little ladies, can't have them thinkin' for themselves" is how it looks in my head). Notice that mothers are not included? It's all about the man.

41 minutes ago · Like · 1

Friend #7

It is not just about the submit (which I do not agree with what you have been taught) but besides that it is clear in scripture that the husband is head over the wife. When you study it out there are clear reasons for this. It is an order of authority that God did put in place.

11 minutes ago · Like

Friend #6

and yet, Jesus himself defied the "order of authority" when he protected the adulteress from those who had, according to the Torah, the right to stone her. As well,as members of the body, function comes first over segregations that man puts into place (no jew nor greek). And finally, I reckon all those slaves were pretty happy when people decided to stop using scripture as a tool to justify one person "owning" another. Cause after-all, as long as you follow the scriptures and treat your slaves properly, then you are following the mandate of scripture.

(Didn't include all the "Eww"s.)

[Aurora]

Pfamilygal - you.are.awesome!!

Love your friends 4,5,6 as well! :)

[Kitten]

In one of the pics, they appear to be praying, with their hands clasped together in front of her, and someone posted "Ben sure has a lot of passion in his face." All I could think of is "That's because in this pic, he is this close to touching her boob with his thumb, and he's probably trying to control the hard-on." But fortunately, I'm not a FB friend, so I couldn't post my response.

:lol:

[annalena]

Oooh! Sounds amusing! Care to share any of the comments?

Friend 1:

You may not agree with it, but thankfully, it wasn't your choice. Be careful you do not tread where angels fear to trod.

about an hour ago · Like · 1

[Aurora]

Friend 1:

You may not agree with it, but thankfully, it wasn't your choice. Be careful you do not tread where angels fear to trod.

about an hour ago · Like · 1

What in the world is THAT supposed to mean? Angels fear trods??

[annalena]

Oh, now I get it. You shall not walk where angels don't even dare to tiptoe. Although of their inner holiness they still have more right to do so than you. Translation: Don't dare to criticize God's word, duh!

[starfish]

Audri looks really pretty; Ben, more like a toad.

[EmmieJ]

She's very cute and I really liked her dress. My thought was that pretty fundy women probably don't have many options of finding an equally attractive mate. Yes, that's very shallow of me.

[Karsaroni]

The Seppi's disgust me. They suck up to fundie royales to such a degree it literally makes me queasy.

I agree Audri looks great and Ben looks like his face is about to burst into flames. If his nervousness in pictures is any indication on how the wedding night went... well then me thinks it was probably over before it really began! ;)

[pfamilygal]

And here we go again:

Friend #2

One of the best things I ever did for my marriage was suggested to me by the women's minister at our church- the woman who held my newborn son while I got baptized. She recommended that I do a word study on the word "submit" I did. I looked at every occurrence of the word in scripture. I looked at Greek and Hebrew origins of the word. My personal definition of the word was transformed! As long as my husband is seeking the Lord in his life, I am more than willing to submit to him. I *want* him to be the head of our family (the final decision.)

It is BECAUSE I was willing to submit to him that we home school, that we live int he home that we do (because I didn't like it) and that I drive a minivan (because that is not the vehicle that I wanted.) And it is because he values our family more than his job that he has been doing contract/consulting work at 1/2 his usual income for 3 years. When his boss demanded that he forsake family for the job, he refused; then Obama took office and no one would hire.

Being a submissive wife/daughter does NOT mean being a doormat!

about an hour ago · Like

Friend #1:

It is obvious that we will not agree, but you are wrong to judge this, or any other marriage. You, nor I, can tell the heart of these two. You have no way of knowing whether this young man is submitted or not to his new wife. Do not judge the hearts of men!

35 minutes ago · Like · 1

Friend #8

we all submit to someone

23 minutes ago · Like · 1

Me:

Good gracious, Friend #1. I am not judging this man's heart. I am judging the misogyny of the "transfer of authority" in a wedding as though she is chattel. Give it a rest.

17 minutes ago · Like

Friend #8

do you "transfer your authority" when you change jobs? do you feel like chattel because you have a different boss?

16 minutes ago · Like

Friend #1

How can you say that you are not judging when you use your definition of "transfer of authority"? It is not for you to decide what they are doing. I have willingly given my husband the authority in our life. You can ask him if that means my brains were checked at the door. He gets to decide most of our life and I am happy with it as I have a million of my own decisions to make. It is perfectly balanced and there is a great deal of conversation that goes on. It is reassuring to me that I can trust my husband to make decisions without even consulting me. Don't I have enought to do without worry about every bill or repair job? All I am asking is that you stop bashing people because you were hurt by some idiot at some point. Not everyone who believes in submission is a doormat or chattel!

11 minutes ago · Like

Me

I did not change bosses when I got married. My dad was not my boss before and my husband is not my boss after. Christ is my boss. And if my boss at work had ceremony and handed "authority" of me over to my new manager, yes, I would feel like chattel. These VF types also don't like it when women work outside the home because that means they have a boss other than their husband. Which is equally as stupid.

11 minutes ago · Like · 1

Friend #10

These Women are sick beings, and get what they deserve if they allow themselves to be "owned" by any man, or person for that matter. There is only one person I answer to as a Woman, Mother, Daughter, or Human Being, and that is MYSELF.

7 minutes ago · Like

Me

My husband and I both trust each other to make decisions. He doesn't have that power alone because of his genitalia. Seriously. We BOTH trust because we are EQUAL. And yes, if your daddy GIVES you to another man, to be your authority, that means you are property. I am not property and chose to marry my husband.

I said this makes me want to vomit. Because I do not agree with the idea that a woman, because she lacks a penis, is somehow meant to be under a dad or husband's thumb all of her life. Because she is somehow not smart/wise/equal/responsible enough hear from God herself. However you chose to live your marriage is fine. But I do NOT like the swill that is being put out by the Botkins. It is a load of crap IMO.

6 minutes ago · Like

And I didn't decide, Friend #1, that they were "transferring authority". It's right there in the caption.

5 minutes ago · Like

Friend #1

This is what I am talking about, pfamilygal. You are stereotyping "these VF types". What words must I avoid so as not to be labeled by you or others as a "VF type"? Thankfully, I do not care what type you think I am, but you are dangerously close to the goverment saying that those who attend church more than once a week or homeschool or.... belong to a cult. You cannot say that this marriage or family or person is one thing or another because you do not see the hearts and intents of men.

5 minutes ago · Like

What you decided was the definition of "transfer of authority". Why do you get to say it means ownership?

4 minutes ago · Like

Me

I find it especially funny that the Botkin sisters just put out a book on boy-girl relationships. Because they aren't married or dating/courting/being traded by their daddies. They are two women in their twenties who still live at home and don't have jobs. Which is an unrealistic expectation for normal. Why would anyone listen to what these two have to say about boys? They don't even have relationships with boys themselves!

3 minutes ago · Like

The two people in the picture are closely associated with VF. That is why I say VF types.

2 minutes ago · Like

Friend #1

That is a big assumption to put people who have a relationship with VF in the same boat. I have a few relationships with people with substance abuse issues. Does that mean that I am an alcoholic?

a few seconds ago · Like

Me

Don't be daft. Their families work for the ministry. That doesn't even make logical sense.

[SunnyAndrsn]

Pfamilygal, Friend #1 has clearly consumed large amounts of Kool Aid. WOW! Her husband can't get a better job because Obama took office, and she has a personal definition of submissive. She also has to homeschool and drive a minivan because her husband says so.

Creepy.

I had a LOL at the fact that you are not allowed to make judgments on anyone or anything, despite the image and definitions that such people publicly provide. Mr. Vision Forum himself captioned the photo "Transfer of Authority". How many ways are there to twist it? Pretty damn clear to me that it means that Audrey is chattel and has no choices in her life. Daddy was in charge, and now her husband is in charge.

There was no "Who gives this woman" at my wedding, and I don't recall that at many of the weddings I've been to in the last 15 years. For the few that did have that, it was the PARENTS, not just the father, that answered that question "Her mother and I do" or "We do".

Effing creepy.