Bro Gary Hawkins 23: Give Us the History

[postscript]

Gary, you could replace that nekkid TV with one of those old-timey pastors you love to emulate and the cartoon would be accurate. Also, I think you (and many of your colleagues) watch more TV than you admit to. 

[AmazonGrace]

2 hours ago, thoughtful said:

A new Garyism? I think he meant "truth" when he wrote "trust."

Gary's self-awareness, as usual, is nil.

Also, the man and the (outdated, of course) TV,  are NEKKID! Horrors!

Well I mean, many people think for themselves and it shows... DIY is all well and good if you know what you're doing. Others should employ a professional thinker.

That said, I am sure that meme is an original drawing by Gary and he is in no way reproducing anybody else's thoughts here

Edited September 19, 2023 by AmazonGrace

[AmazonGrace]

So what do you think Gary would do if one of his kids came out and told him, "Dad I did some reading, and then I thought some things out for myself, and I don't believe that KJB got everything right?"

[thoughtful]

 

20 hours ago, AmazonGrace said:

So what do you think Gary would do if one of his kids came out and told him, "Dad I did some reading, and then I thought some things out for myself, and I don't believe that KJB got everything right?"

Why, he'd calmly discuss it with them, and learn from what they point out to him, and . . .

sorry, I can't go on.

Gary was alone in church on the morning of 9/17.

There's a "special" of  It Matters to the Master  - I think these may be some of Pastor Baker's eleven kids. The captions had another idea when they sang the lyrics "He wants to share the burdens you bear:"

Spoiler

 

Pastor Baker pontificated about pain, including lots of lip service to how much women suffer in childbirth. He says that the  men talk about many topics when he fellowships with friends and family, but the women - oh, excuse me - ladies -  always talk about giving birth.

Funny thing, Dave, the women I know talk about lots of topics - maybe it has something to do with the lives they get to lead, not being in your misogynistic fertility cult.

He goes on to talk about how men who have been in battle have also suffered pain.

Of course, the point is to talk about how Jesus suffered. And Baker puts on a one-man (well, with a few helpers) passion play. He goes into lengthy, gory detail - under the spoiler, in case you want to skip the horror.

Spoiler

He describes hematidrosis (sweating blood), a rough rope around the neck, punches, spitting, the crown of thorns being jammed down, having beard hairs ripped out in clumps (here he jokingly invites one of the bearded young men in the church to come up so he can demonstrate). He keeps circling around, repeating and being as gory as possible about being spit on after "chunks of flesh" have been torn out.

When he talks about the cat-o-nine-tails, he holds up a whip, after expressing his regret that he doesn't have an actual cat-o-nine-tails, and saying he might ask one of his sons to make him one "for future illustrations").

Spoiler

He describes the sharp objects that were on the strands, then has a young man act out being hung up by his hands to be whipped:

Spoiler

Short tangent into Star Trek geekery - I really wanted that young man to shout "There! Are! Four! Lights!"

He makes sure they know that a cat-o- nine-tails could wrap around to the front, and "many times their bowels would come out, their intestines would come out." He keeps repeating how it would "rip the skin," and mentions the intestines again.

After his long description of scourging, he makes sure they have an image of the robe being put on Jesus, then ripped off about an hour later: "Imagine the dried blood."

After highlighting the 200-pound cross and lots of falls, bleeding feet, elbows, knees (and a brief mention of Simon of Cyrene - don't want too much of a detour from the suffering) - he gets to the nails.

And, of course, he has nails, because "I want to get you to think about it, but we really can't fathom that."

He steps down from the pulpit, and the camera doesn't follow him this time, but he says he has "spikes," and acknowledges that the nails would not have been exactly like them, but would have needed to be large for three of them to hold a person up. Again, he has a young man help him act it out.

He makes sure they know that, when the cross was lifted, every joint in Jesus' body was dislocated. Then comes a lengthy description of suffocation. He acts out needing to push up against the nails to get each breath:

Spoiler

 

 

Then he goes on about the emotional pain. He emphasizes that, as their creator, Jesus knew everything about the people mocking him and could have told all of their secrets, but didn't.

Then a long harangue about Jesus having every sin put on him: "He became a rapist for us. He became a molester for us. He became a murderer, a liar, a thief. He who knew no sin became sin."

Then on to the spiritual pain - God turned his back and forsook him.

Baker is sniffling - I don't know if it's real crying, fake crying, or just allergies.

He says Jesus' body went into the tomb, his spirit to heaven, and his soul to hell. And he quotes Psalms ( the original Hebrew, BTW, does not have anything to do with the Christian concept of hell, and, of course, it had nothing to do with Jesus):

Quote

For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

He emphasized the word "leave," and concludes that, if his soul won't be left in hell, it must have been there.

He ties it in to Noah and Jonah, as these guys often do - I skimmed. He brings in Lazarus going to Abraham's bosom, and says something I can't understand, but the captions think it's"

Spoiler

 

Then he reviews the whole story, and makes sure to lay on lots of guilt about it all.

At least he says not to blame the Jews (or the Roman soldiers, Sanhedrin, Herod, Pilate, etc.). It is his sin, and theirs, that caused it all. He tells them they should think about it at least once a week, not just at Easter.

In his altar call, he says: "He did all that for you - how dare you hold back yourself and not surrender and serve him with the rest of your life?"

Edited September 20, 2023 by thoughtful
riffle

[Jasmar]

10 hours ago, thoughtful said:

A new Garyism? I think he meant "truth" when he wrote "trust."

Gary's self-awareness, as usual, is nil.

Also, the man and the (outdated, of course) TV,  are NEKKID! Horrors!

Ooh, has Gar ever run across any Heironymous Bosch? Maybe that’s where he gets his  severe gymnophobia. Maybe that’s where he gets his sense of glee at imagining all those sinners frying, with broken backs.

[thoughtful]

On Sunday evening, 9/17, Becky and Gary were both in church.

Sunday evenings are when they go around the room asking for people to talk about recent "blessings, neat, special, good."

A man talks about how a friend who came to church with him that morning liked the sermon. After murmuring some platitudes about that, Pastor Baker says, "Joshua liked the sermon, especially when I had a whip to his brother. He was just smilin', like 'Yeah, whip him! Yeah, get him!"

High-class humor, that.

A man says he was blessed with four new tires from Walmart, "at a good discount." To their credit, the congregation laughs and doesn't seem to be taking that seriously as a gift from God. But he goes on to say it was an answer to prayer, because his car had hydroplaned and he'd lost control, twice, before getting the new tires.

Baker jokes that hydroplaning's "sorta fun," and makes driving more exciting.

A man says he recently quit his job, because "it was taking me away from God, taking me away from church and doing the things I need to be doing." A week later, God blessed him with a job that will allow him to come to every church service.

Someone saved one of the mothers of "the bus kids" the day before.

Baker's message is about there being no restoration without repentance. I don't have the patience for most of it, but his thrust seems to be believing people (well, pastors, anyway) when they claim they are repentant.

 He tells a story about going to comfort a pastor who was accused of something horrible (of course he claims it wasn't true). He tells them how he helped this man, sent him to David Hyles' Fallen In Grace resort (OK, he doesn't call it a resort - that's my take), and how the man is now ministering again. He said it was 20 years ago.

A google search brought up lots of possibilities, but I'm guessing he's talking about this guy, who I've posted about before:

https://www.homefacts.com/offender-detail/TN00379061/James-Earl-Lovett.html

https://sor.tbi.tn.gov/details/00379061

Hey, Dave  - he pled guilty.

Baker says his man has since "restored" over 100 other pastors and has written a book on restoration.

He tells another story, of a man he knew from the Army and bible college, who was in the deputation process as a missionary, and was accused of something by a "girl" at his day job in a factory. Some co-workers there assured him that his reputation was stellar, and she was "a mess."

But "one knucklehead from there" (unclear what he means by "there," but it seems like he means the workplace) called the man's home pastor, who told a bunch of other pastors, and none of them wanted to support his mission.

So he quit missionary work and tried to get back into the Army but they wouldn't take him, so he joined the Marines. One day, while standing holding a flag, he saw a leaf blowing by, and "God just touched his heart and said 'I wish you could be as obedient to me as that leaf is to the wind.'"

He promised to "get out of this as soon as possible to serve you," and, 30 minutes later, after watching a training film, he couldn't get out of his chair. He had a broken bone in his back (an old injury that he thought had completely healed but had come back), and got a medical discharge.

But wait, there's more!

Baker said he kept track of where this man was, and kept writing him letters (asking him to get back into missions work, I guess). He showed up at Baker's church one day, then went with him on a teen convention in Texas, heard a sermon on forgiveness, and wept because he finally realized that God didn't hate him. He worked with Baker for a while, then went back to the mission field.

Yet another story, about a friend who was having problems, and called Baker one day and ripped into him. He refrained from responding in kind, and eventually, that friend came to him for help. He says it was because he responded in meekness, unlike the two people from the man's church who stood outside his door and said they refused to leave until they got a chance to rebuke him.

He tells the story of the woman caught in adultery, and does something I've never heard an IFB preacher do (although I've certainly heard it from lots of other people). He points out that, if she was caught in adultery, there must have been a man with her, and why weren't her accusers also accusing him?

Well, that's a teeny bit in his favor, I guess. It doesn't come close to making up for the rest of his crap.

He goes on about restoration for a while, then reiterates that what was said about both of the men in his first two stories was not true.

Notice that the person who helped all three men in his stories to be restored was . . . Baker himself. In meekness and humility, of course.  🙄 He says, "I love to help people who can't help me. How come? There's a purity in that."

And he says that, right before church, he got a call from "a guy in the jail that I'm helping.  There's nothing they can do for me, but I can help them and there's a purity that comes from that."

He says that some people like getting doctors and lawyers in church for big tithes. "I love going after the guys in jail, the people in the nursing homes, and people that have fallen. You know why? Because there's nothing they can do for me, but I get to show pure religion to help them."

So, it's not so much about money as ego, Dave - we get it.
 

Edited September 20, 2023 by thoughtful
riffle

[postscript]

Note to self - do not click on spoiler tags if Pastor Bloodthirsty is talking about suffering. Sermons should not give the congregation nightmares. 

However, I can see why Gary loves this guy. They’re both into gore and bodily fluids. 

[Xan]

7 hours ago, thoughtful said:

Of course, the point is to talk about how Jesus suffered. And Baker puts on a one-man (well, with a few helpers) passion play. He goes into lengthy, gory detail - under the spoiler, in case you want to skip the horror.

All the talk about blood and pain and suffering just makes me think Baker is a bit of a sadist.  He, like Gary, gets off on this.  It isn't enough that Jesus died for Baker's sins.  Jesus had to be tortured for it to mean anything.

And, in the name of all that is holy, nobody needs his soliloquy on chunks of beard being yanked or people's intestines falling out.  The reenactment of the whipping scene would have caused me to run screaming from the church.

[Ozlsn]

Amazing how he can go into that depth of detail around scourging and I bet not once has he related that back to slavery, and fired up a neuron of empathy.

Also bizarrely enough I knew all about the effects of a cat o' nine tails from primary school - discussion of convict history and a field trip with apparently way too much detail given how many decades later I remember it!

[thoughtful]

10 hours ago, postscript said:

I can see why Gary loves this guy. They’re both into gore and bodily fluids. 

As I was listening, I was picturing Gary in the congregation, transfixed. Now I'm wondering if he will try to add some of those details to his messages. Imagine if he went home and told Becky "Ah need a whip with sharp thangs ohn it, an' some spikes. Think they got those at Walmarts?"

Gary's never done a whole message about the torture and crucifixion of Jesus - he's just referred to it. He always rattles off the same list of indignities - "beaten upohn, spitten upohn, mocked and made fun of."

I remember one message in which, if I was understanding him correctly, he said he'd only recently learned about the crown of thorns. So much for all of those bible read-throughs. That was especially weird, since he was at this church, and not for the first time:

Spoiler

 

[postscript]

I also wondered if Gary intends to steal borrow some of this message. The sick imagery is right up his alley. However, he might not be able to remember all the details. Let’s hope, at any rate.

He’s only recently heard of the crown of thorns? That’s hard to believe, given the crown of thorns is important iconography in every church I’ve ever been in. Does he have a special KJV Bible that leaves out that part? 

I first heard of a cat o’ nine tails by listening to HMS Pinafore as a small child (“sing hey, the cat o’ nine tails and the tar!”). However, I thought the line referred to a real cat. I didn’t understand what it was until I was much older. 

[AmazonGrace]

It's the same verse that tells us about Jesus wearing gay colored clothing so Gary probably blocked it out 

Spoiler

And the soldiers platted a crown of thorns, and put it on his head, and they put on him a purple robe,”

 

[Alisamer]

On 9/13/2023 at 4:22 PM, thoughtful said:

After a long dissertation about the word time, and how it is used in the bible. He makes a point of the two different Greek words used for "time" in the bible, and how the one meaning a limited time of opportunity is the one used here. Davis is treading on dangerous ground here - them IFBers don't cotton to no original Greek mess - they want their perspired - er, inspired KJB!

It is interesting to see an IFB pastor, especially one Bro Gary apparently likes and approves of, going back to earlier documents. Gary is so KJV only he won't even call it a "version" of the Bible! I suspect this guy mostly just likes the faux-intellectual caché of referring to the Greek.

It does make it clear though, that words matter, and that the King James (and likely most, if not all, translations) lose some nuances in the translation. Also historical context, and cultural knowledge - things that would have been stuff you "just knew" by osmosis back then, that are completely unfamiliar to most people today. There were jobs, tasks, prejudices, events, just everyday things back then that we'd have no clue about now, that are likely assumed in the writings from and about that time. Like some of the things Jesus said while on the cross, I'm told, refer to psalms - not necessarily the verses, but as songs every person present would have been familiar with from childhood, so Jesus just quoted a few words from one and everyone knew what he was getting at.

The pastor I saw talk about that in a sermon several years ago demonstrated how that worked by turning to the youth in the choir loft and asking "what comes to mind if I say Michelle Pfeiffer?" and all the youth calling out "white gold!" from the song Uptown Funk. If you go in a group of people over a certain age and called out "Bill Nye the Science Guy!" you'll end up with a bunch of people yelling "BILL BILL BILL BILL." You can start a line from Bohemian Rhapsody and most people over like 30 will finish it for you. Jesus apparently did that, essentially! But we don't have the context that the people then had, to make the associations intended there. 

On 9/13/2023 at 9:12 PM, thoughtful said:

he says, "Ken Gaub," and after a brief detour to  say he forgot to tell them about the time he almost crashed an airplane, finishes the rest of the story. "Ken Gaub just answered the telephone, the voice on the other end of the line said 'Yes operator, that's him, that's Ken Gaub' He just answered this pay phone, he just walkin' bah, they just took off the interstate t'rest. He said (Davis reads from the book, very fast):

Anyone else curious about this airplane story? I am!

Also, so basically, this woman was feeling suicidal, decided she didn't want to harm herself, and instead of just... not doing so, or reaching out to people she knew, or calling a hotline for help, or even just going for a walk to clear her head - she gets out a pen and starts doing automatic writing (which is a sort of mediumship channeling thing fundies regularly, if they know about it, claim to be satanic witchcraft) and it gives her the number of some random pay phone the guy happened to be walking by? Really? 

And if that did actually happen, how come any sort of divination sort of thing is considered witchcraft, when God clearly seems to have used that very sort of mechanism to give this woman that number? 

Why so complicated? Why would an all-powerful loving father God not only let this woman be suicidal in the first place, but then instead of comforting her with his presence, or sending someone to help her, or having someone call her at that moment, or fixing whatever is causing her to struggle so much, He has her absently doodle some numbers and then realize they are a phone number and then call them, and it happens to be some random phone booth number that he's somehow arranged this one specific guy to be walking by at just the right time? 

If I was some sort of all-powerful deity, I'd think I'd want decent people not to be in situations where they felt that hopeless. But if it happened, I think if my only resort was automatic writing of random numbers, I'd make them the number for a helpline. Not some random phone booth. 

On 9/19/2023 at 12:12 PM, AmazonGrace said:

So what do you think Gary would do if one of his kids came out and told him, "Dad I did some reading, and then I thought some things out for myself, and I don't believe that KJB got everything right?"

I think it depends on the kid and the situation. I'm sure he'd end up vaguebooking about it, no matter what. If it was a kid (Jacob, maybe) he felt he still had some sort of control over, there'd be an almighty loud fire and brimstone sermon with lots of yelling and probably threats, as well. If the kid was more independent, or wanted to discuss it, or didn't care much what he thought, I think he'd be lost. Anything that requires critical thinking or wit is just beyond him, and he'd resort to "It Bible!"

I'm slightly surprised he's OK with the pastor up there referring to the Greek to explain things better, but I guess you have to have cognition to have cognitive dissonance. 

However it happened, Gary wouldn't be willing to read anything, probably not even in his precious KJB, that might prove the kid's point. Just "It Bible" and verses about obeying your parents and ranting about "the world" and hell.

 

21 hours ago, thoughtful said:

He emphasized the word "leave," and concludes that, if his soul won't be left in hell, it must have been there.

Uh, by that same sort of logic, wouldn't "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." imply the existence of other gods? 

If you can't have other gods before this god, there must be other gods around to be had, right? 

It's interesting how some of these guys are able to logic well enough to twist things to mean what they want, while also not quite being able to make a simple leap of logic that is obvious to most thinking people - the Bible can't be inerrant as it's a collection of centuries worth of documents from a variety of sources all written by people, re-copied by other people, chosen by people to be saved, found at various times in various versions in various places, chosen by people to be part of the canon,translated by other people, and then still changed after that, even their precious 1611 KJV! 

The IFB guys would have considered the people who chose what got included in the Bible to not be Christian. They would have thought the same of the translators of the KJV. If one of those people showed up today and said, "hey, this is what the Bible says." they'd be treated like satanic infiltrators and proclaimed to be heretics.

[thoughtful]

Another predictable comment under Gary's  "raining cats and dogs" post - this guy's got the racist answer. 😡

 

Spoiler

 

27 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

It is interesting to see an IFB pastor, especially one Bro Gary apparently likes and approves of, going back to earlier documents. Gary is so KJV only he won't even call it a "version" of the Bible! I suspect this guy mostly just likes the faux-intellectual caché of referring to the Greek.

It is rare among KJV-only dudes.

I am curious about how Gary took this sermon. He seems to adore his pastor, David Baker, but this was a guest preacher, Dr. S. M. Davis. And, since Family Baptist does not seem to have a tradition of calling out to whoever is preaching, and doesn't show the congregation during the message, I can't tell if Gary liked him and his references to Greek or not.

35 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

The pastor I saw talk about that in a sermon several years ago demonstrated how that worked by turning to the youth in the choir loft and asking "what comes to mind if I say Michelle Pfeiffer?" and all the youth calling out "white gold!" from the song Uptown Funk. If you go in a group of people over a certain age and called out "Bill Nye the Science Guy!" you'll end up with a bunch of people yelling "BILL BILL BILL BILL."

 

Spoiler

If you've never seen that episode of Star Trek: the Next Generation, I recommend it. It's about trying to communicate with a species whose whole language is references like that, and the moving way one of them tries to make peace and initiate a relationship with the humans.

Have tissues.

 

45 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

You can start a line from Bohemian Rhapsody and most people over like 30 will finish it for you.

I'm happy to say that, from what I've seen, so would lots of under-30s, and even under-20s. Every few years, I get a student who wants to play it on the piano.

 

38 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

Anyone else curious about this airplane story? I am!

Me, too.

BTW, the phone-answering guy who wrote the book Davis quoted, Ken Gaub, died this year, due to complications from the many injuries he received in an auto accident six months earlier. I guess God didn't have his number that day, like he did in the past.

https://www.charismanews.com/culture/91601-international-pentecostal-minister-ken-gaub-dies-at-87

Also, God didn't seem to know what Gaub's son needed, unless it was money and a sudden death (that may have been suicide):

Quote

In May 2012 Daniel Gaub, the scion of evangelist Kenneth Gaub, was killed in a motorcycle accident. But was it an accident, or did Dan – as many believe - commit suicide in order to avoid a hefty prison sentence and the ruination of his family? Shortly after his death, the FBI raided Gaub’s home in search of evidence to support accusations that he was scamming people with high-risk foreign currency trading, known as “forex”. The agency took computers and boxes of records. Assets, including Gaub’s 70-foot yacht and a collection of cars and motorcycles, were also seized.

Quote

Within months it was announced that the FBI was indeed investigating Daniel Gaub of running a Ponzi scheme that may have netted him and his family as much as $40 million. Although Dan Gaub’s parents were not implicated, it’s interesting to note that Ken Gaub has not filed his tax returns since 2012, the year his son died. His church – which he and his family have run since 1961 - is tax-exempt but still has to file returns annually. If a non-profit religious organisation fails to file for three consecutive years they can have their tax-exempt status revoked. So far this does not appear to have happened to Gaub senior.

https://worldsworstrecords.blogspot.com/2019/06/death-and-taxes.html

[Ozlsn]

1 hour ago, thoughtful said:

If you've never seen that episode of Star Trek: the Next Generation, I recommend it

My entire issue with that episode is how you you have the methaphorical references without the stories to start with? In which case you have language and the translator should work - if the metaphors are the language then the translator should still work. At some point you need the language. /geek I still love that episode though.

I loved the meme (which I probably saw here) saying "people centuries from now trying to work out the difference between a butt dial and a booty call explains why so many Christians don't understand the Bible" - even references from a century ago are confusing, anything written down referring to jobs, shorthand and slang that no long exists becomes harder to interpret, especially across languages and cultures as well.

Also I kind of want to know how future archaeologists are going to interpret butt dial and booty call...

[Xan]

2 hours ago, Alisamer said:

Also, so basically, this woman was feeling suicidal, decided she didn't want to harm herself, and instead of just... not doing so, or reaching out to people she knew, or calling a hotline for help, or even just going for a walk to clear her head - she gets out a pen and starts doing automatic writing (which is a sort of mediumship channeling thing fundies regularly, if they know about it, claim to be satanic witchcraft) and it gives her the number of some random pay phone the guy happened to be walking by? Really? 

I don't believe that it happened.

I mentioned in another thread that I've been re-reading Orwell's 1984.  The trouble is that now I keep seeing examples from it all over the place.  Believing that automatic writing is witchcraft and should be avoided and also believing that God told the woman to do automatic writing is a clear example of "doublethink".  It the ability to believe both things at once and not see the flaw.  Fundamentalism is full of doublethink.  God is all powerful but watch out for Satan because he'll tempt you away from God.  God saved me from dying in a wreck but he allowed me to be in a wreck in the first place.  The 1611 KJV of the bible is the only God-breathed version that's the truth.  Also, there were earlier translations but we're just going to use occasionally to sound smart.  

And, no wonder they're trying to rewrite the history books.  "He who controls the past controls the future.  And he who controls the future controls the present."  Now they're able to minimize slavery and think it was somehow beneficial.  Yikes. 

"We have always been at war with Eastasia."

 

[Ozlsn]

1 minute ago, Xan said:

We have always been at war with Eastasia.

Honest to God the current "Nazis were actually communists" bullshit from the right made me think of that sentence straight off. Russians were Evil Commies Who Were Only WW2 Allies When Needed and Nazis were Absolute Evil for most of my life as far as the right went (see: any action movie from the 1980s just about), and now Russians are good guys and Nazis Were Actually Far Left. WTELF???

I get some of this is pushback from people pointing out that the current right sliding towards absolute authoritarianism looks a lot like what happened in Weimar Germany, and obviously glasnost and perestroika followed by rapacious oligarchy have changed Russia significantly into a new form of authoritarianism, but even so I find it amazing that literally decades of being told and shown one thing has been swept away in what feels like an instant by new slogans for some people.

Also I've just finished "Wifedom", which I highly recommend if you're looking for more background on both Orwell and those books - and of course his first wife Eileen, who significantly contributed to them.

Wifedom also talks briefly about "Brave New World" as well as 1984, and the differences and similarities foreseen by Huxley and Orwell - the author makes some interesting comparisons of soma to, well, the internet.

For the rise of authoritarianism though Orwell had personal experience as well as a bloody good co-writer/draft reader/first editor who had also lived through the purge in Spain - they wrote about what they saw and what they knew, and it shows.

[thoughtful]

1 hour ago, Ozlsn said:

My entire issue with that episode is how you you have the methaphorical references without the stories to start with? In which case you have language and the translator should work - if the metaphors are the language then the translator should still work. At some point you need the language. /geek I still love that episode though.

I have the same issue with it, but my geeky, word-nerd, teacher mind imagined that there is some technology that teaches the stories to babies and children (and new stories, like Picard and Dathon at El-adrel, to everyone), maybe with  films, so they know the references because they saw the story acted out, with only the names and a few prepositions and articles as narration. The all-references language could have developed as their technology did.

Or something.

Have I figured out a solution?

Spoiler

 

1 hour ago, Ozlsn said:

"people centuries from now trying to work out the difference between a butt dial and a booty call explains why so many Christians don't understand the Bible"

I love this.

I have the "that's not what that refers to!" experience all the time listening to KJV-only people and hearing what they think was meant based on bad translation of the Hebrew bible.

It's a bit weird hearing someone completely misinterpret a word or phrase I learned when I was a little kid in Hebrew school. Again, the Internet comes in handy - I check to make sure that I'm not getting it wrong, or that I'm applying a modern meaning when it meant something different in 30 CE.

So far, it's always been due to their trusting the KJV instead of the more accurate translations.

1 hour ago, Xan said:

4 hours ago, Alisamer said:

Also, so basically, this woman was feeling suicidal, decided she didn't want to harm herself, and instead of just... not doing so, or reaching out to people she knew, or calling a hotline for help, or even just going for a walk to clear her head - she gets out a pen and starts doing automatic writing (which is a sort of mediumship channeling thing fundies regularly, if they know about it, claim to be satanic witchcraft) and it gives her the number of some random pay phone the guy happened to be walking by? Really? 

I don't believe that it happened.

It really sounds like the pastoral version of a bar bet, like he bet another preacher he could get the rubes to believe a story that outrageous in a sermon, then another, and another, and it escalated until the other guy dared him to put it in his book.

Edited September 20, 2023 by thoughtful
forgot something

[thoughtful]

Becky and Gary missed church again last night, as far as I can tell. Pastor Baker was (is?) at a conference, so he wasn't there either.

[Alisamer]

16 hours ago, Xan said:

I don't believe that it happened.

Oh I don't either. But he's a PASTOR and LYING is a SIN isn't it? Isn't it???

I know, I know, if pressed, these pastors would say they were telling parables, like Jesus did. Stories that are both inerrantly accurate and 100% true (because "it Bible!") and also just made-up stories Jesus used to demonstrate a point. 

Doublethink, as you say. 

It's amazing the amount of mental gymnastics these half-wits can manage. I kind of suspect with Gary, at least, the doublethink works because he's literally incapable of holding more than one thought in his head at a time. Whatever he says is true, at the instant he says it. It might not be in the next 10 seconds, though. 

26 minutes ago, thoughtful said:

Becky and Gary missed church again last night, as far as I can tell. Pastor Baker was (is?) at a conference, so he wasn't there either.

Anyone think this'll maybe stop him from shaming people who watch church from home? No? Me either.

[thoughtful]

I was watching a Belief It or Not video about sickening "feel good" news stories (like the ones that cover the fact that a bible or a cross survived a fire or storm that killed multiple people), and look what got a quick mention:

Spoiler

 

 

[AmazonGrace]

That God wink story at 11:40 though... ... somebody prayed for a prisoner of war and  40 years later they both happened to be on the same sports stadium during a huge sporting event housing 55000 people.  It MUST be God at work because there are no coincidences in coincidences.  (the ballcap guy knows this for a fact  because he decided it must be so) 

More deets here:

https://godwinks.com/blogs/squires-blog/the-cheerleader-and-the-war-hero

They didn't even accidentally sit next to each other or anything.  She remembered his name when he was announced as a VIP. He has a wikipedia page so the chances are that some other people at the stadium might have heard about him as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_K._Thorsness

and the miraculous godly coincidence is that she wanted to meet Thorsness and some media person who had security access wandered close enough she could ask them to help arrange it.

So we are to assume that none of the non-religious people at the same event ever happened to accidentally meet any celebs they used to care about years ago.  Because only God can organize these things. Obviously.

Atheists only ever meet complete strangers and are unable to ask for assistance if they want to meet VIPs.

 

Also love this: A person with a metal detector finds a lost metallic object. Because that's what metal detectors are used for. It must be God at work whenever metal detectors find anything. And how about buying this fab mug?? https://godwinks.com/blogs/squires-blog/the-power-of-a-nudge

Spoiler

“62 years ago my dad was wearing my MOM’S class RING on a chain and LOST it playing football in the Ferguson School yard.

It was never found.

Many times people would search with METAL DETECTORS.

Today, Mom saw this GUY searching the Ferguson yard for treasures. She stopped and told him her story….and a half an hour later he FOUND it!

He said God PLACED HIM there to find it today. My mom couldn’t agree more!

My parents will celebrate their 60th wedding anniversary this February. What a GIFT this was!”

Tracy Nuese

••••

Let’s think about that… Tracy’s mom’s high school ring … lost for 62 years…was still on her mind.

When she saw a man … presumably a stranger… using a metal detector on the field, she felt a NUDGE to stop and talk to him about it.

Then… God winked! Just like that!

Wishes for fortuitous Godwinks!

SQuire

As you read these Godwink WINKletters, over a warm Cup of comfort, wouldn't YOU LOOK GOOD lifting a Godwinks Mug?

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by AmazonGrace
VIP, not WIP

[Xan]

The problem is that these are just coincidences and not all coincidences are good.  There's the couple who are having a baby and, upon getting in the car, find that it won't start.  There's the engaged couple who discover one of them has cancer and dies before they even have a chance to marry.  There's the person who takes a once-in-a-lifetime vacation only to be swept away by a tsunami.  What were those?  SatanWinks?  

I used to be more of an agnostic but reading about fundies has pushed me toward atheism.  Attributing everything to the supernatural is mind-numbing.  If there does happen to be an organizing intelligence that controls the universe, I'm not seeing much evidence.

[AmazonGrace]

Me too Xan... I learned about cognitive biases and I figured that if you need to use such a lot of faulty reasoning in order to defend your faith maybe it's not all worth defending.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases

seems like this godwink thingy fits several of these at once.

There's definitely some apophenia going on, and these guys don't just "perceive" meanings in random events, they go actively looking for random events so they can assign meaning to them.

Salience bias or selective attention is definitely a factor as they highlight the rare successful times that the metal detector found the object that they prayed to find but ignore all the times that they found only random crap for the scrap heap or the times the metal detector guy got diarrhea and never went searching to begin with.

There's confirmation bias and some circular reasoning because you assume that God exists and helps people get nice things, and then you use evidence of people getting nice things to prove that God exists.

There's neglect of probability... Like, suppose there is a one-in-a-million random chance that Nice Thing happens and people try it often enough it's going to happen sooner or later. It's very rare to win the lottery but given enough tickets, somebody will win. If not this week, then next week or the week after that.

Agent detection bias: I won the lottery so it must have been God. 

Objectivity illusion: I see God's hand at work here so I see things more clearly.

Subjective validation: I believe there are no coincidences so these things aren't coincidences.

Several memory biases as well, as you will probably have better recall of the random success that you saw as evidence of God at work and turned into a fabled testimony, and forget about all the times that you failed to meet a war hero at a baseball game. How many times did you walk past the payphone and it didn't ring? How many times did you walk past your own landline, and no one called you? What about that time your house burned down and you were able to rescue this object from the ruins?

Spoiler

Did the Today Show ever post a segment about the miracle of metallic butt plugs surviving housefires? Look, we are all very sad that Wilbur died. But on the bright side, some of his sex toys were not damaged.

[Alisamer]

2 hours ago, Xan said:

I used to be more of an agnostic but reading about fundies has pushed me toward atheism.  Attributing everything to the supernatural is mind-numbing.  If there does happen to be an organizing intelligence that controls the universe, I'm not seeing much evidence.

These days I tend toward thinking that instead of an organizing intelligence, there's just energy or vibes or something. Chaotic, but everywhere. Sometimes it comes together in a good way, sometimes in a bad way, sometimes not at all. So I'm cool with prayer and spells and whatever, because I think putting out positivity in whatever way feels right is probably not ever a bad thing.

And I think our brains are pretty powerful wierd things so if stuff like that helps you focus or feel calmer then that alone is useful.

Kind of like this past week I went to a rock and crystal store, and was browsing around the stuff there, and read off a few of the labels - "Oh, this stone is supposed to be good for migraines, and this one is good for clarity and focus." and my sister, a church deacon, says "If you BELIEVE in that stuff, maybe." And my response was that the placebo effect is still an effect. And even if wearing a bracelet with that stone on it literally does nothing but remind you when you see it that you were wanting to work on focus and clarity, that still helps. 

Like, I don't think it was God winking that made my mom find my lost-for-30-years class ring in the kitchen drawer, after all the thousands of time she, and I, and my dad, and my sisters, and other people have opened that drawer and DIDN'T find it. It was awesome it was found, and I was ecstatic, and emotional, and all. But it wasn't God that made her find it finally, it was just the natural progression of time. She and dad are aging, and decided to finally sell their travel trailer. That means that on top of grandma's dishrags that were in the house when we moved in when I was in high school, and her dishrags that moved with her, and the random ones she'd gotten as gifts over the years, she also had all the dishrags that were in the camper, and that was finally TOO MUCH so she emptied out the entire drawer for the first time in decades. That's what made her find my ring.