Shiny Happy People: A Duggar and IBLP Documentary

[hoipolloi]

7 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

The restraining order tells us much more. 

According to the linked article, a son also has a restraining order against Jim. Things must be pretty bad for that to happen.

[JermajestyDuggar]

10 minutes ago, hoipolloi said:

According to the linked article, a son also has a restraining order against Jim. Things must be pretty bad for that to happen.

Yes, he does. We talked about this last month in another thread before the documentary came out. It’s a middle son. He’s in his early 20s and isn’t married. 

[bea]

The whole documentary had me glued to the TV and the bit about Paul and Morgan made me LAUGH LIKE HELL, they posted a response that was basically like "well we wanted to be portrayed positively and blah blah blah" but its really hard to claim that they portrayed you unfairly when it was LITERALLY clips of things you said.

Good Lord.  As they say.

[Gobsmacked]

On 6/5/2023 at 6:42 PM, Coconut Flan said:

Somewhere over the years I'd heard or read that about Jill hitting Josh and telling her parents.  I can't remember if it was in the police reports or an interview one of the other kids gave.  

I seem to remember that just before Jill’s wedding her Siblings were asked to  say something about her, a nice memory of her. Josh mentioned that Jill was a tattle tale. Now we know why. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

Just now, Gobsmacked said:

I seem to remember that just before Jill’s wedding her Siblings were asked to  say something about her, a nice memory of her. Josh mentioned that Jill was a tattle tale. Now we know why. 

If I remember correctly, JB and Michelle made it sound like he came to them with a confession without prompting. But I don’t think that’s true. I think he confessed because Jill caught him, hit him, and told her parents. 

[Katzchen24]

if anyone is interested in hearing more from Chad Harris, there’s a really good interview with him on the most recent episode of Scathing Atheist podcast. It starts about 30 minutes into Episode 538 Shiny Happy Edition and goes for a good 25 minutes. He’s a very eloquent speaker when he gets going, and he gets really heated about the links between IBLP/Gothard/Christian nationalism. 

 

[CaseyGrace]

On 6/7/2023 at 6:49 AM, llucie said:

She also said Jill Rodrigues was asked to participate in the documentary and she declined.

omg if JILL RODRIGUES of all people declined what does that say about Paul and Morgan?? im pretty sure of all the fundies who were asked they were one of the only ones who responded.

[ElizaB]

I imagine someone like Jim holt would go absolutely crazy when his wife left him and then issued the order of protection. He is so used to getting to control her. She does what he says with a smile. Then she leaves him and he is still trying to control her. Then the protective order is issued and he can’t even get close to her. I’m sure it is making him so mad that she is no longer following his orders. 

[noseybutt]

On 6/3/2023 at 8:46 AM, Evil Feminist said:

I was not expecting anything about TeenPact. I finished the last 2 episodes last night. I'm glad I broke it up. It was a pretty hard watch and I didn't grow up in IBLP/ATI. We were sort of fundie adjacent, but very isolated. The "every father a cult leader and every family an island" is very accurate for my family. I really was surprised to see so many clips from TeenPact promos, but it really ties in with the Christian nationalism. TeenPact was a big part of my life for several years and then CollegePlus, which they didn't mention at all. CPlus got a lot of publicity from the Duggar's endorsement and was largely staffed by young people who had grown up in IBLP/ATI or VF. I had been pretty sheltered from the greater fundie homeschool community and joining CPlus was eye opening to me. Part of what triggered my deconstruction. 

The TeenPact reference has been niggling at me. Today in my social media feed I saw a local Christian homeschooler was advertising “Worldview Academy.” This is a week long summer day camp aimed at teenagers that I have seen advertised for the last 10+ years. It draws heavily from the JMac and Piper crowd.

I went down the rabbit hole of researching Worldview Academy. First impression is they are savvy; they keep a low profile but what they do present is curated and hip. (Well, as hip as very conservative white men can be.)

Now the interesting part. It turns out the founder, Bill Jack, also serves on the board of TeenPact. See here: https://www.billjack4coloradohouse.com/about

 

[JermajestyDuggar]

I’m pretty disappointed in the amount of affordable camps in my state that aren’t Christian. I want a non Christian, affordable, non themed camp. My kids just want a run of the mill camp. Not horse camp. Not soccer camp. Not chef camp. They would love a regular camp with canoeing and games and water fights. But most of those are Christian camps or too expensive. 

[Cam]

10 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I think Jim and Bobye are a good example of how you never really know what is going on inside a marriage. I definitely think the more you watch a couple, the more you see them interact, the better you can see their relationship. However you never truly know because you can’t be there 24/7. Jim and Bobye were only interviewed for a short amount of time. It’s a tiny view into their marriage. The restraining order tells us much more. 

Since we knew of the restraining order before the documentary came out, I carefully watched Bobye and Jim Holt’s body language in the documentary. There were a number of times Jim would not make eye contact with Bobye when she looked at him while she was talking. Even tho they sat so close, it’s as tho you could pick up on a distancing between them. Of course, these observations are all made in hindsight. 

Edited June 8, 2023 by Cam

[Mari2]

I am just curious about how families also closely associated with the Duggars, like the Staddons, Neely, and Wilkes for example, feel about this documentary?  They all had a huge presence on the internet for years promoting IBLP, FEW (iblp recruitment) and used IBLP  to build their families' brand.  I just wonder if they are still involved and recruiting?  

[JermajestyDuggar]

Just now, Mari2 said:

I am just curious about how families also closely associated with the Duggars, like the Staddons, Neely, and Wilkes for example, feel about this documentary?  They all had a huge presence on the internet for years promoting IBLP, FEW (iblp recruitment) and used IBLP  to build their families' brand.  I just wonder if they are still involved and recruiting?  

Robert Staddon still takes his family to big Sandy. I’ve seen them in pictures there the past few years.

[QuiverFullofBooks]

10 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

If I remember correctly, JB and Michelle made it sound like he came to them with a confession without prompting. But I don’t think that’s true. I think he confessed because Jill caught him, hit him, and told her parents. 

I think he confessed to the final (and worst) molestation. 

[Mari2]

I wonder if they eventually realized they were conned by IBLP/Duggars and left?  I wonder too about the Camuso family.  The families once so prevalent with their online "look at our wonderful life" videos and postings seemed to have just fallen off the face of the social media earth.

[feministxtian]

4 hours ago, noseybutt said:

Now the interesting part. It turns out the founder, Bill Jack, also serves on the board of TeenPact. See here: https://www.billjack4coloradohouse.com/about

 

Lovely, Castle Rock. Douglas County...quite possibly the most conservative part of the Front Range. The shitty part is it's one of the more "affordable" parts of the metro. 

[neuroticcat]

Tia Levings mentioned the spousal contract abuse stuff in her stories today and indicated she’s be talking more about it close to her book launch.

 

She said it was more a piece of her life after she migrated from IBLP to a reformed community. Sounded from what she said like everyone there had been or was connected to IBLP though. My impression then was the r wasn’t so much an IBLP taught thing as something that paired well with the teaching already in place?  

[Evil Feminist]

7 hours ago, noseybutt said:

The TeenPact reference has been niggling at me. Today in my social media feed I saw a local Christian homeschooler was advertising “Worldview Academy.” This is a week long summer day camp aimed at teenagers that I have seen advertised for the last 10+ years. It draws heavily from the JMac and Piper crowd.

I went down the rabbit hole of researching Worldview Academy. First impression is they are savvy; they keep a low profile but what they do present is curated and hip. (Well, as hip as very conservative white men can be.)

Now the interesting part. It turns out the founder, Bill Jack, also serves on the board of TeenPact. See here: https://www.billjack4coloradohouse.com/about

 

Yes... TeenPact had leaders from similar organizations come to be program director at their state classes. Bill Jack was a program director in the past.

I'm not very familiar with World View Academy. But its probably  similar in beliefs and vision.

Summit Ministries started by the late David Nobel is another worldview training camp for teens. 

[Smee]

14 hours ago, ElizaB said:

I imagine someone like Jim holt would go absolutely crazy when his wife left him and then issued the order of protection. He is so used to getting to control her. She does what he says with a smile. Then she leaves him and he is still trying to control her. Then the protective order is issued and he can’t even get close to her. I’m sure it is making him so mad that she is no longer following his orders. 

I hope she’s safe. Often these orders don’t mean jack shit until they’re breached, and there are far too many cases of women murdered by the men they had restraining orders against. Just after you leave is the most dangerous time.

2 hours ago, neuroticcat said:

Tia Levings mentioned the spousal contract abuse stuff in her stories today and indicated she’s be talking more about it close to her book launch.

 

She said it was more a piece of her life after she migrated from IBLP to a reformed community. Sounded from what she said like everyone there had been or was connected to IBLP though. My impression then was the r wasn’t so much an IBLP taught thing as something that paired well with the teaching already in place?  

Tia’s ex-husband is pretty clearly a sadist abusive man. Domestic violence rates are at epidemic levels, something like 1 in 4 women have been in an abusive relationship? So on the one hand, there are elements of her story that are not rare at all, and I’m sure plenty of IBLP wives were victims of physical and sexual abuse in addition to the verbal, emotional, & financial. The only part that seems especially shocking/different is the “contract” that they agreed to ahead of time (which is why I say he’s a sadist as well as a run of the mill abusive man who took his anger out on his wife). But I think the reason for including it was to demonstrate that when an abusive man gets into a cult like this it gives him a biblical justification for his behaviour, he adds spiritual abuse to the other abuse and then you don’t need love bombing and all the other coercive control measures in the cycle of violence, because GOD SAYS she can’t leave. And however rare “domestic discipline” might be in terms of what’s encouraged, normal, pushed by mentors & parents & pastors, it’s still just one step away from what they’re already doing to kids, and the man is the head of the household, so if she goes to anyone in her community for help, they’re not going to give it.

[Cam]

12 hours ago, Mari2 said:

I am just curious about how families also closely associated with the Duggars, like the Staddons, Neely, and Wilkes for example, feel about this documentary?  They all had a huge presence on the internet for years promoting IBLP, FEW (iblp recruitment) and used IBLP  to build their families' brand.  I just wonder if they are still involved and recruiting?  

What I wonder is if any of the Bates, Kelly and Gil and any of their adult kids, had any kind of viewing gathering or sort of round table or “living room sofa”discussion about the documentary, and if there wasn’t a bit of schadenfreude (i.e, pleasure derived by another person’s misfortune) going on. (I wonder if any of IBLP families listed above did the same thing.)Yes, the Bates are IBLP, but is there some rivalry between the Bates and Duggars? Are the Bates secretly goading over the very public compilation of Duggar secrets?  After all, the Bates so far haven’t produced a Josh.

 

4 hours ago, Smee said:

I hope she’s safe. Often these orders don’t mean jack shit until they’re breached, and there are far too many cases of women murdered by the men they had restraining orders against. Just after you leave is the most dangerous time.

 

It may be to Bobye’s benefit that now with the documentary, they’re much more well-known. Jim may not want further bad publicity and try to control himself. Maybe he’d even get counseling. It’s one thing to be a threat to your wife and family behind the scenes where you think the terrible bad is hidden and you can get away with it, and you think your wife and kids would never have the nerve or guts to publicly call you out. But call him out they did. Bringing a large spotlight onto their troubles changed the dynamic. 

Edited June 9, 2023 by Cam

[hoipolloi]

2 minutes ago, Cam said:

What I wonder is if any of the Bates, Kelly and Gil and any of their adult kids, had any kind of viewing gathering or sort of round table or “living room sofa”discussion about the documentary, and if there wasn’t a bit of schadenfreude (i.e, pleasure derived by another person’s misfortune) going on.

I bet they all watched it one way or another.

IMO, these folks cannot see themselves as others see them so, yes, they'd take pleasure & pride in NOT being featured in SHP while completely missing the main points about the evils of  IBLP. If they do become aware of criticism, they will instantly portray it as "persecution" because godly folks like themselves would never do anything wrong.

[JermajestyDuggar]

When it comes to the Bates family, I kind of assume IBLP is the elephant in the room no one ever talks about. Like I imagine none of the adult kids talk about the fact that they never go to the conferences or camps. I imagine Gil and Kelly don’t bother to bring up why the adult children never go with their families. I bet they also don’t talk about why a lot of the adult children don’t attend Gil’s church. I just get the feeling that the Bateses let a lot of things go unsaid and put on a happy shiny front like they were taught. 

[pupper]

I imagine that some of the Bates clan are smugly imagining how, if they had been interviewed, they would have set everyone straight about how Godly and perfect their views and practices really are.

They think that IBLP was simply misrepresented in the documentary and still don’t recognize the harm and danger in it promotes.

[noseybutt]

8 hours ago, Evil Feminist said:

Yes... TeenPact had leaders from similar organizations come to be program director at their state classes. Bill Jack was a program director in the past.

I'm not very familiar with World View Academy. But its probably  similar in beliefs and vision.

Summit Ministries started by the late David Nobel is another worldview training camp for teens. 

I am wondering if the reason for so many organizations (apart from big egos) is that it allows the presenters to tailor for the audience. These groups are all very similar in terms of of political beliefs. Where they differ is with theology. For example, IBLP has the "umbrella of protection" that goes so far to say that if you are in conflict with a headship, bad juju will happen. The JMac/Piper crowd simply don't like women and don't want them in any position of authority. Different theology, but very similar in terms of they want for political outcomes: nuclear family homes, no reproductive rights/autonomy in healthcare for women, no LGBTQ rights, etc.

[viii]

On 6/8/2023 at 6:48 AM, molecule said:

I changed my mind about this. I just saw on InTouch that Bobye has an order of protection from Jim. I hadn't realized that, and i didn't want anyone here thinking that I wanted her to stay in an unsafe situation. 

You're not alone in this. I didn't realize about the order of protection until this thread. I thought besides the cringe comments about their age gap, they came across as a solid couple. It shows just how little we actually know about these people, even with videos and whatnot. 

I mean, the Duggars had non-stop videos for how many years and look how long they had a lot of the world fooled.