Shiny Happy People: A Duggar and IBLP Documentary

[Mama Mia]

I’m watching Episode 4 and in the beginning the Holts talk about Investigators coming to their door to talk about Josh, right after the car lot search, and they told them it wasn’t about past misdeeds —- why did they go to the Holts? Why would they think they knew anything? The wording made it sound like it was with a few days of the raid. Did I miss something? 

[Keys]

I watched the docuseries (wow, highly recommend), and it made me feel disgusted by Gil. They didn’t mention the Bates family, but I know Gil is involved with the IBLP leadership, and I didn’t fully realize how harmful and abusive their practices are - always knew it was bad, just didn’t realize how bad. TW - They also talked about how Gothard sexually assaulted many of the teen girls, that he had a type, preferring blond girls with curled hair. That he would choose favourites and invite them to work for headquarters and then assault them. It made me think of Erin. And also how Michael’s husband still works for IBLP as well. Truly horrific cult. 
 

edited to add: I also found the concept of the “Joshua generation” pretty disturbing and alarming. Basically that social media has allowed IBLP to be presented to a much wider audience and packaged in a very pretty picture by members who have become influencers. And that the goal of the quiverfull movement is to indoctrinate the kids who can then become politically involved to push along the agenda. And I mean, look what happened with Roe v Wade. Scary stuff. 

Edited June 6, 2023 by Keys

[Columbia]

1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

Just some thoughts on the documentary:

From the outside looking in, Gothard, the Institutue and all the teachings and outside businesses present as crazy, awful, irresponsible and down right criminal. But I can see how the actual people who were drawn in, were drawn in.

Think about the lives these woman, in particular, were (are) living. They have mega families, mega responsibilities, are isolated and for many, little money. Or freedom to use what they do have.  Going to the cult gatherings was probably like going to Disneyland for these women. 

Maybe the cult offered these women some degree of support.

Yes, I feel dirty and gross typing any on these. It is so twisted. 

The kids probably liked seeing other kids beyond their own siblings. 

TL:DR- the ideals, values, BS taught at these gatherings was/is awful. Maybe the friendships were good for the people involved. 

I think you’re absolutely right. A lot of the big Vision Forum events were promoted as a way to be with “like minded” people. There was a lot of talk about being able to network and make acquaintance (all gender specific, but it seemed to be often mentioned more for the women.) The father-daughter retreat was promoted as a way for the girls to make friends who were also SAHDs, and, of course, in doing so reinforce the message. I’m sure there was no difference between that and ATI/IBLP in that regard. 

[FleeJanaFree]

Along with Gil Bates , I am disappointed the documentary didn’t expand more on David Waller.

[eljayem]

13 hours ago, Coconut Flan said:

Somewhere over the years I'd heard or read that about Jill hitting Josh and telling her parents.  I can't remember if it was in the police reports or an interview one of the other kids gave.  

I have no idea where I heard this - maybe here? - but way back when the info was first leaked and in the media the story was the parents found out what Josh was doing - punished him but didn't do anything official trusting that he wouldn't do it again (I know I know) - then shortly after when they were away overnight at a conference or something and the kids were at home JB&M got a call from Joy Anna (who was like 5 at the time) telling them that Josh had done it again - and they came home, went to the police about it and then sent him away.

[ladyicantxplain]

10 hours ago, Columbia said:

Going to the cult gatherings was probably like going to Disneyland for these women. 

 

TW: abuse/child abuse

Precisely.

When I was in the gothardite cult church for several years, two decades ago, going to conferences was like a vacation from the eighteen hour days of working (for less than minimum wage) as a domestic in these crazy people's houses with their eleventy-five children.  I mean, when you are subjected to watching some "man" beat his own children and other people's children with a "rod" (plumbing line/switch/piece of plastic/glue stick) until they have a "broken spirit" (hours of this...) - you need to escape for your own mental health, even if it is just to some conference room with some brainwashed nut jobs.

In fact, even after I left the cult, the moment I got some extra money, I'd pack up all my kids (as a single mother) and spend every cent of it on some religious conference at some hotel with an over-chlorinated pool and some free Continental breakfast.  It is all I knew.

This is the "vacation" my kids knew when they were super young.

Thank gods that is over...

Edited June 6, 2023 by ladyicantxplain
Needed to add details about the need to escape trauma in the home when in this cult

[sophie10130]

I think the reason why this documentary felt disjointed to some is because WE know how all of this fits together. We know there are still connections to make between the Duggars and the Bates, IBLP and the Bates, how Paul and Morgan fit in, how JRod fits in, the political machinations, and everything else. But how long have many of us been on this forum reading about people, families, scandals, abuses, etc. that are all connected? And when these people started to become mainstream in the American political system, most notably after 2016, you need to understand decades worth of information to see how it was done and who was at play.

They had 4 hours/episodes to show one facet: the facet that made this type of patriarchy and misogyny seem palpable to the most amount of people. However, the Duggars already had their time to be gawked at. This time it was necessary to show the abuse and the horror behind it all. But in doing so they needed to show the larger picture and the larger set of gears in motion-- and that is really complicated. We have a very large forum dedicated to it. But the scope of the show is too small to show even a small part of what we know, making it seem like they were bouncing around and not tying up loose ends enough.

I am glad they made this documentary to show how insidious this religion and their ideals are. Anything to shine light and help people see the red flags and how these people keep popping up over and over. There is a similar talk on a part of TikTok right now about how some influencers are making being a Trad Wife look really appealing by using current secular trends like Cottagecore to suck in younger, more easily influenced audiences. There was a quick clip of that in the show. 

I hope doing this show helped those in the show find a bit of peace and inner healing. I thought they were very brave.

[CanadianMamam]

13 hours ago, Mama Mia said:

I’m watching Episode 4 and in the beginning the Holts talk about Investigators coming to their door to talk about Josh, right after the car lot search, and they told them it wasn’t about past misdeeds —- why did they go to the Holts? Why would they think they knew anything? The wording made it sound like it was with a few days of the raid. Did I miss something? 

Was their name on the original police report with Josh? If so that could be why. But also, talking to family and close friends is part of building a case (I have enough sketchy relatives to know this first hand)

[hoipolloi]

17 minutes ago, sophie10130 said:

Anything to shine light and help people see the red flags and how these people keep popping up over and over.

My thoughts as well. This documentary is definitely to the good. I am seeing a lot of reactions to it from fundies on social media who normally would never mention ILBP, Josh Duggar, Gothard, the Pearls, or any of it. 

[Mama Mia]

14 minutes ago, CanadianMamam said:

Was their name on the original police report with Josh? If so that could be why. But also, talking to family and close friends is part of building a case (I have enough sketchy relatives to know this first hand)

I don’t think their name was on the original police report, and I was under the impression they had all been distant, if not estranged, for many years. Just seems super weird they’d come to the Holts for info so quickly- especially since their part in his history was 15+ yrs previously, second hand, and on a case that he was never charged. I’m sure they had their reasons, just seemed strange.

[SongRed7]

13 hours ago, FleeJanaFree said:

I am disappointed the documentary didn’t expand more on David Waller.

he was seen in one fleeting scene

[neuroticcat]

On 6/5/2023 at 9:11 AM, ladyicantxplain said:

Thank you for saying this.

So many people "feel sorry for Michelle" because, you know, the men.
Yes, there is truth to that statement, but this woman is clearly psychotic.
She weeps crocodile tears while talking about birth control "causing" her miscarriage and "crying out to God" on the floor on her knees...yet she sadistically sing-songs melodically about her "blanket training" and other horrific child-raising practices.

She's vile.
And she's an adult woman with full agency, no matter what kind of malignant narcissist she married.
Perhaps she is also a malignant narcissist.

I think even if she wasn't to begin with IBLP makes everyone a narcissist. You couldn't have designed a better environment to cultivate situation narcissism if you tried.

 

Maybe they should've added to that one quote: it makes every father a cult leader; it makes every mother a malignant narcissist.

On 6/5/2023 at 10:27 AM, hoipolloi said:

Exactly. Just like Doug & Beall Phillips. These are all people who absolutely knew what they were doing but the lure of money & power was more important to them.

I wonder what Michelle's role was in mounting Josh's legal defense. JB was the front man for it, in and out of court, but after seeing SHP I'd guess that Michelle did a lot behind the scenes.

 

In the doc there's a clip of her on stage saying she didn't need to talk to Joshua but she needed to talk to her Heavenly Father. 

So my guess is she completely dissociated and prayed.

On 6/5/2023 at 11:42 AM, rebeccawriter01 said:

Having watched it now, I think they left the doors open to do another part that looks more at the "leadership." But there are reasons they didn't go there yet.

1. The producers/documentarians were limited with the time allocated to them by Amazon and the overall format. Because they are more of a household name and the team was able to get actual Duggars (and the Holts) to speak (Jill, Amy - she's a pain but she is inside enough to have witnessed things - and Deanna), it was natural to go with the Duggars. There wasn't anyone interviewed who could dive deeper into the Bates without confusing the narrative. The intended audience wasn't those of us who snark and know all the rumors, stories, etc. To add in the Bates, Paines, Plaths, Rodriguezes, Kellars, etc. is to add 100 more people into the narrative. The average person would need a diagram and charts.

2. The format of it was not narrated. It relied on first person accounts of IBLP and the players involved. The Bates suck, especially Gil, but they have managed not to create the enemies that Jim Bob has created. Other than Jill or Amy snarking on the Bates old outfits, there wasn't anyone interviewed who could have spoken directly about them. They have to find someone adjacent - maybe a failed courtship woman? Imagine if they could get interviews with either or both of the women who Kelly Jo's mom adopted.

3. Legalities...Josh is convicted of a crime and in a round about way confessed to others. Gothard has been accused in court of his behavior. The board was sued but it didn't get that far and didn't individually place blame on board members. It's a little harder to publicly do a documentary or docuseries about accusations that don't have a great legal foundation. Look at the Larry Nassar and USA Gymnastics. There have been multiple well done documentaries on this case because it was so public and insane how one man could harm that many girls. Each one had to tiptoe around USA Gymnastics. They could name the head of the organization because he spoke out about it and made himself the spokesperson - Steve Penny. They were able to show emails where he was aware of the situation and chose to cover things up. The board was more than likely aware too but the documentaries are careful not to name them or accuse them. Legally that is smart because it muddies the issue and presents a threat to credibility. If the documentary creators were to get sued by a board member for defamation or whatever, then there is a credibility problem for the work as a whole. 

My hope is that Amazon sees good numbers and asks for more that could feature the Bates and even more about shadiness with the Duggars. For example, they left out things like SOS Ministries with the Duggars and the family trips to Central America. Diving deeper on the Kellers who managed to get two daughters married into higher ups in the fundie land though one of those crashed and burned. The Kellers are nobodies but managed to do that while living in a trailer in Florida. There has to be a story there. They talked political involvement but what about Josh's one on one time with elected officials still in office. 

I agree with this. I think it must be for legal reasons. They didn't even really mention the Bates or any current IBLP leadership. I bet IBLP threatened to sue. 

I do think UP probably cancelled the Bates show over this. If you talked to the producers and they were like: this is going to be a huge abuse expose, you would not want to be mixed up in it, especially if you already felt like they were just a step away from exposing themselves via the George Floyd comment and Jan 6. I think it'd be too costly. I also remember wondering at the time of cancellation if the Bates had refused to get vaxxed. Hollywood & the entire film industry was mandating it and I could see them opting out or something.

19 hours ago, Cheetah said:

Heads up - I know not everyone here is a fan of reddit but there's going to be an AMA (ask me anything) with the exec producers of Shiny Happy People tomorrow (Tuesday June 6) at 2pm Pacific on r/DuggarsSnark.   Announcement here (announcement says PST, I assume they mean PDT).  

 

Oh update, only one of the 2 producers (Cori Shepherd Stern) will be at the AMA tomorrow. 

Oooh, maybe someone will ask them about the Bates!

[neuroticcat]

Anyone else just super relieved this is out there? I feel it in my body. I know there is snark here but there is also a lot of deconstruction and processing of abuse and just knowing this is fully public and out there is really glad thought.

[noseybutt]

3 hours ago, neuroticcat said:

Anyone else just super relieved this is out there? I feel it in my body. I know there is snark here but there is also a lot of deconstruction and processing of abuse and just knowing this is fully public and out there is really glad thought.

I’ve had at least 3 conversations with people in my social circle about this. Two had some sort of prior link with IBLP or IBLP adjacent teachings. One was just curious having been a former fan of the show.

But 3 conversations! That is a shocking amount for me because I rarely watch TV or movies and especially not reality TV. 

I get the criticism that the documentary could have had better editing and a tighter story line. From a technical perspective, it’s unlikely to win awards.

But from the perspective of prompting conversations, it knocks it out of the park. IMO this is a go-to series for someone wanting to understand their fundamentalist relatives or neighbors or friends from college years ago who went down the fundie path. 

I would love it if the film makers expanded on the political aspect.

[Bastet]

  I was just on Reddit duggarsnark AMA with executive producer cori shepherd stern. (She has a background in fundamentalism and was terrified of the rapture growing up.)  She said that she’d like to do a second series and would include the Bates and Doug Phillips and Vision Forum. She seems to be considering the Russian orphans who got trapped in IBLP.  They would have liked to include the ATI presence in jails in Arizona and something about members of the Joshua Generation who pulled away from Dominionism. 
She said they tried to contact as many Duggars as they could but only Amy, Deanna, and Jill responded. She wanted to do something on Patrick Henry College and fundamentalists presence in the armed forces, the CIA, FBI, and Homeland Security. Sounds like there was a whole segment on the origins of the radical right in the fight against segregation that was cut. She begs us to contact Amazon Prime if we want a second season. 

Edited June 7, 2023 by Bastet

[flowergirl]

Jinger seems to have done supported Jill somehow. Would love to know what it was. 

[Smee]

Todays thought - Jill and Derick said JB offered all the adult kids a lump sum that was basically minimum wage for their previous work, and the catch was that they had to sign a contract for the next 5 years or something. I wonder if Jinger and Jeremy signed that deal or refused, only appearing on their own terms after that. And I also assume Ben and Jessa signed. I do wonder where Jessa stands with the Gothard stuff and JB & M. The eldest sisters seemed close, Jinger and Jill have both come some way along deconstructing and are possibly supporting each other through that, Ben was friends with Jeremy at some point. Jessa had to do the Megyn Kelly thing with Jill. I would love to know if she has watched this and what she thinks of it all.

[llucie]

9 hours ago, Bastet said:

  I was just on Reddit duggarsnark AMA with executive producer cori shepherd stern. (She has a background in fundamentalism and was terrified of the rapture growing up.)  She said that she’d like to do a second series and would include the Bates and Doug Phillips and Vision Forum. She seems to be considering the Russian orphans who got trapped in IBLP.  They would have liked to include the ATI presence in jails in Arizona and something about members of the Joshua Generation who pulled away from Dominionism. 
She said they tried to contact as many Duggars as they could but only Amy, Deanna, and Jill responded. She wanted to do something on Patrick Henry College and fundamentalists presence in the armed forces, the CIA, FBI, and Homeland Security. Sounds like there was a whole segment on the origins of the radical right in the fight against segregation that was cut. She begs us to contact Amazon Prime if we want a second season. 

She also said Jill Rodrigues was asked to participate in the documentary and she declined.

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

25 minutes ago, llucie said:

She also said Jill Rodrigues was asked to participate in the documentary and she declined.

Ah, but we know that Jill deep down would have loved to have been interviewed, no matter the subject matter. But I'm sure the headship wouldn't allow it and she wouldn't have been able to use a filter. 

[flowergirl]

30 minutes ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

Ah, but we know that Jill deep down would have loved to have been interviewed, no matter the subject matter. But I'm sure the headship wouldn't allow it and she wouldn't have been able to use a filter. 

Jill Rodrigues mentioned a while back that she had been contacted and asked to be part of a TV show. Could have been this. 

[Giraffe]

We now have outside evidence the Rods really have turned down tv spots. I’d love to know the real reason. I wonder if it’s one area Dave won’t budge on. I can’t believe Jill would turn down any spotlight. 

[QuiverFullofBooks]

1 hour ago, Giraffe said:

We now have outside evidence the Rods really have turned down tv spots. I’d love to know the real reason. I wonder if it’s one area Dave won’t budge on. I can’t believe Jill would turn down any spotlight. 

Jill Rod’s free-floating paranoia may have led her to the correct conclusion this time: she would not have come off well.

[JermajestyDuggar]

Jill and David currently have full control of their online persona. And even though Jill and David control what is put out there, they still have a massive amount of people who openly disagree with them. One of the most popular topics on Reddit is this family. Our most popular threads on FJ are Jill related. They are self aware enough to know that if they have less control over their family image through a tv show or documentary, they will be even more scrutinized. 

[anachronistic]

Also, they may be afraid that if they let filmmakers into their home, and stranger see how they live, they will voice concerns over how much the children eat, how they sleep, their education, etc. I am fairly certain that their education is not on par with even the wisdom booklets. We I'm pretty sure that they have been investigated for child neglect before, and they must want to avoid that at all costs.

[JermajestyDuggar]

2 minutes ago, anachronistic said:

Also, they may be afraid that if they let filmmakers into their home, and stranger see how they live, they will voice concerns over how much the children eat, how they sleep, their education, etc. I am fairly certain that their education is not on par with even the wisdom booklets. We I'm pretty sure that they have been investigated for child neglect before, and they must want to avoid that at all costs.

The thing is, I think Jill could probably fool someone pretty well. I think the Duggar children were so well trained and broken that they were able to put on a shiny happy surface when the cameras were rolling. I think Jill and David could for the most part. I think Jill would buy a bunch of food and make the best dishes for when the cameras are rolling. They would wear their best outfits. They would bust out their most wholesome activities. But what she can’t put a happy spin on is their hateful beliefs. And Jill can’t shut the fuck up about them. The Bateses have learned how to hide their anti abortion, homophobic, racist (well mostly) beliefs. I think Jill is very confident in her beliefs and would happily spew them for cameras. That’s when Jill would get an even bigger amount of pushback. Other Christian’s would be railing against her. People who are well known in the community would likely disagree with her. We know she can’t handle that. Look at the few times her contemporaries disagreed with her online. She lost it.