Duggars by the Dozen 45: Life with Josh in Prison and Marrying as Fast as They Can

[Bluebirdbluebell]

1 hour ago, Thumper said:

Just as an aside I have to say I’m rather disgusted with Jim Bob’s sister Deanna. She knew her nephew was a molester but still let her own daughter over there all the time? WTH?

She also would have owed nieces more help if she knew. 

Deanna and Amy both say they didn't know at the time.

Amy is also older than Josh. Josh's victims (that we know of) are all younger than him.  

The real question to me is what did Mary know. Mary was there a lot and supposedly she wanted to have television to promote Christian values. Mary may have known a lot more than we know.

[Dandruff]

26 minutes ago, rebeccawriter01 said:

Grandma Mary Duggar is the one I would most certainly say knew things and did not protect her grandchildren in any substantial way. I have to wonder how Amy and Deanna can reconcile that. 

I agree.  She and her husband were staying in the guest room of the TTH for a good while, and I believe those months should have confirmed any remaining suspicions.  IIRC, she was also along with JB during the episode when he fake kidnapped some of the Bates kids, and scared the crap out of Kelly, because he thought it was funny.  If he thought his mother would have a problem with it I have to wonder why he would have brought her along (if preplanned) or done it (if not preplanned).

[Idlewild]

36 minutes ago, rebeccawriter01 said:

 

If I was Jim Bob (yuck), I would have been concerned he had other victims and would want to find out about it. I wouldn't be covering for him and saying he was away doing a ministry thing.

All JB & M cared about was their fledgling media career. Having failed to get elected to the Senate, JB saw an opportunity to feed his ego and fill his wallet. The Holts confirmed that TLC ended up paying thousands to get the house finished. The programme also alluded to the wealth of the IBLP- I’m sure the Duggars as the poster family for the movement thought they would be in pole position to take over and control the cash.

Even with Josh’s conviction, I don’t think they believed it was all over- they would do the ‘one bad apple’ speeches and launch the increasingly unpleasant Jed into a political career. 

[fluffernutter]

Something that had me scratching my head- I even rewound? rewinded? 🤷‍♀️ to make sure I heard right, Derrick said that after there was news of the car lot getting raided he texted Josh and Josh either downplayed or denied it, I don't remember the exact wording. So my thought was why is Derrick still in contact with the guy who did that to his wife in the first place? Enough to have him as a text contact in his phone? Does anyone have any clarification on that or thoughts? I guess I would've thought that the Dillards would not be on speaking terms with Josh.

[nvmbr02]

8 minutes ago, fluffernutter said:

Something that had me scratching my head- I even rewound? rewinded? 🤷‍♀️ to make sure I heard right, Derrick said that after there was news of the car lot getting raided he texted Josh and Josh either downplayed or denied it, I don't remember the exact wording. So my thought was why is Derrick still in contact with the guy who did that to his wife in the first place? Enough to have him as a text contact in his phone? Does anyone have any clarification on that or thoughts? I guess I would've thought that the Dillards would not be on speaking terms with Josh.

I don't disagree with your reasoning... I don't think I would have continued contact with my abuser and would be upset if my husband did. However, it doesn't seem like Jill had cut off contact with Josh at that point. Even if they weren't super close they were at family events together regularly. And I have at least 30 contacts in my phone for family members that I never see outside of family events... we have at least 3 different family group chats for my dad's side of the family alone. So that part doesn't strike me as odd if Josh was still an accepted member of the family, which I don't think we have seen any evidence that he wasn't. 

The fact that Josh was still welcomed with open arms for the most part just really highlights how fucked up their family dynamic is.

[anjulibai]

1 hour ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

The real question to me is what did Mary know. Mary was there a lot and supposedly she wanted to have television to promote Christian values. Mary may have known a lot more than we know.

Not only what did Mary know, but what did Jim Lee know. Jim Lee was clearly against their lifestyle and Jim Bob has sad some not nice things about Jim Lee since his death.

[fluffernutter]

@nvmbr02   Like they all still got together at family functions and there's Josh, and everyone had to play nice? That is beyond gross. Those poor girls. 

I still can't wrap my head around the timeline of everything. Maybe Jill's book will clarify more clearly how she moved away from her family. 

[noseybutt]

28 minutes ago, fluffernutter said:

Something that had me scratching my head- I even rewound? rewinded? 🤷‍♀️ to make sure I heard right, Derrick said that after there was news of the car lot getting raided he texted Josh and Josh either downplayed or denied it, I don't remember the exact wording. So my thought was why is Derrick still in contact with the guy who did that to his wife in the first place? Enough to have him as a text contact in his phone? Does anyone have any clarification on that or thoughts? I guess I would've thought that the Dillards would not be on speaking terms with Josh.

So when the car lot was raided Josh’s phone wasn’t taken? Entirely possible but interesting.

[fluffernutter]

@noseybutt Derrick says when hearing about the raid that he texted Josh about it. So no, I don't think so.

[Smee]

Relationships are complicated, and processing abuse and trauma (especially without therapy) sometimes involves a lot of compartmentalising. Between recognising that I had been groomed by a youth leader and actually deleting him from my Facebook friends took years. There was a period of time where I had what turned out to be false memories/intrusive thoughts about being abused by my brother when I was a teen. I didn’t want to tell anyone else in my family because I didn’t want it to affect their relationship with him. I worried about having him near my kids but also didn’t want to cut him out of my life. Women stay in abusive relationships all the time, because it’s not violent 100% of the time and they love the person who hurts them. All that to say, Jill’s feelings about Josh wouldn’t necessarily be black and white hatred, he was her brother as well as her abuser and she may not have wanted to cease contact. I don’t find it all that odd that Derick had his number.

[Idlewild]

When Derick was grifting funds for his ‘ministry’ , Josh made a donation and Derick did a video thanking him. It’s one thing not to rock the boat for the sake of family relationships- quite another to publicly thank your wife’s abuser.  The dynamic of that family was so fucked up.

[nvmbr02]

44 minutes ago, fluffernutter said:

@nvmbr02   Like they all still got together at family functions and there's Josh, and everyone had to play nice? That is beyond gross. Those poor girls. 

I still can't wrap my head around the timeline of everything. Maybe Jill's book will clarify more clearly how she moved away from her family. 

I totally agree, it is gross! When Josh abused Jill she was 11/12 ish? (I am not the best at the timeline in regards to ages) but then he was later the MC at her wedding. He wasn't in the wedding party, so maybe that was her way of putting some distance? In any case he was still around and accepted at family events for sure. 

[marmalade]

20 minutes ago, nvmbr02 said:

I totally agree, it is gross! When Josh abused Jill she was 11/12 ish? (I am not the best at the timeline in regards to ages) but then he was later the MC at her wedding. He wasn't in the wedding party, so maybe that was her way of putting some distance? In any case he was still around and accepted at family events for sure. 

That was 2014. The scandal broke a year later when Israel was an infant. 

[nvmbr02]

23 minutes ago, marmalade said:

That was 2014. The scandal broke a year later when Israel was an infant. 

Right, but the abuse happened way before the scandal did. 

[shesinsane]

3 hours ago, fluffernutter said:

@nvmbr02   Like they all still got together at family functions and there's Josh, and everyone had to play nice? That is beyond gross. Those poor girls. 

I still can't wrap my head around the timeline of everything. Maybe Jill's book will clarify more clearly how she moved away from her family. 

When the news of Josh's abuse of five girls made the news in 2015, TLC cancelled 19 Children and Counting (the show about the Duggar family), but soon came up with Counting On, which was focused on the married and marriageable Duggar children (except for Josh, of course). There were weddings, births, house decorating, weird food consumed with the Vuolos in Texas, and Anna Duggar and her kids made occasional appearances on camera. Josh was often at family events but TLC shot around him and cut him out during editing. I can't remember which Duggarling it was, but one of their weddings concluded with group pictures in the parking lot. Anna and her husband were towards the middle of the group (the crew couldn't easily cut them out of the shot) and so there was lens flare over his face, obscuring his Josh-ness. 

In 2019, officials from the Department of Homeland Security investigated Josh's car lot, I don't think it was mentioned on the show at all. The Duggars did not distance themselves from Josh and the Counting On crew continued to film around him. In 2021 Josh was arrested and started his path to prison, that is when Counting On was officially cancelled. It seems that Josh was welcome at family events between 2015 and 2021, but he will not be attending any family functions until at least 2032 (when he has completed serving his sentence in federal prison). 

[WatchingTheTireFireBurn]

My personal experience is that you have to make a choice sometimes to either accept an unacceptable family member and keep the rest of your family OR you have to say no I can't have this in my life and lose your whole family. Especially in the beginning of her marriage/adult life, Jill probably did not have it in her to break ties with her family over Josh. 

It is really weird but you can actually compartmentalize things and go on with your family anyway.

It sucks but it also sucks when your entire family is not going to walk away with you if you go.

Did any of you see that film Monsoon Wedding. In that one, the family sides with the victim and it's so beautiful. 

[rebeccawriter01]

20 minutes ago, WatchingTheTireFireBurn said:

My personal experience is that you have to make a choice sometimes to either accept an unacceptable family member and keep the rest of your family OR you have to say no I can't have this in my life and lose your whole family. Especially in the beginning of her marriage/adult life, Jill probably did not have it in her to break ties with her family over Josh. 

It is really weird but you can actually compartmentalize things and go on with your family anyway.

It sucks but it also sucks when your entire family is not going to walk away with you if you go.

It is one of the hardest things ever to be victimized and have your family choose them over you. I don't agree with Jill or Derick's life choices and beliefs, but I do feel for Jill on this. You would rationalize or hope that out of 18 siblings someone would side with you and stand with you. But to the outside world, Jill appears very much alone on that hill. 

As someone from a fractured extended family, it sucks big time. You debate whether to come to things if you get invited. You feel like an outsider when you are there. If you choose not to come, you spend a lot of time wondering what is being said. 

Case in point, my mother's family has a December get together each year. I live out of state and for the first time in a few years I will be back in state in December. One of my aunts called last weekend to ask when I was arriving. I haven't made firm plans but told her it would be toward the middle of the month. She didn't really have more to say so I hung up and went on with my day. Come to find out, they were scheduling the December get together and wanted to make sure I wouldn't be able to attend. 

[WatchingTheTireFireBurn]

13 minutes ago, rebeccawriter01 said:

 

Case in point, my mother's family has a December get together each year. I live out of state and for the first time in a few years I will be back in state in December. One of my aunts called last weekend to ask when I was arriving. I haven't made firm plans but told her it would be toward the middle of the month. She didn't really have more to say so I hung up and went on with my day. Come to find out, they were scheduling the December get together and wanted to make sure I wouldn't be able to attend. 

Well, that sucks and I'm sure it was very hurtful. 

[Cupcake79]

3 hours ago, rebeccawriter01 said:

Case in point, my mother's family has a December get together each year. I live out of state and for the first time in a few years I will be back in state in December. One of my aunts called last weekend to ask when I was arriving. I haven't made firm plans but told her it would be toward the middle of the month. She didn't really have more to say so I hung up and went on with my day. Come to find out, they were scheduling the December get together and wanted to make sure I wouldn't be able to attend. 

How rude of her. Not that I could ever imagine wanting to exclude someone deliberately but if that would happen I’d never ever have the nerves to call the person directly. I would ask someone else about that persons plans. If someone asked me about dates of traveling I would assume they would want to include me, not exclude. I feel for you.

[Four is Enough]

15 hours ago, Smee said:

 All that to say, Jill’s feelings about Josh wouldn’t necessarily be black and white hatred, he was her brother as well as her abuser and she may not have wanted to cease contact. I don’t find it all that odd that Derick had his number.

Don't forget all that about forgiving people. It would have been very difficult for a young Jill to avoid Josh in that house and not interact with him. If his mother/ father/grandmother noticed, questions would have been asked. Even at a young age, Jill, who would probably be very confused and feeling like somehow she was to blame, would still want to be on "good " terms with Josh, so as not to be a bad girl.

Gah. It made me feel ill just to say that.

[fluffernutter]

I know they still saw each other at family functions, I guess I am surprised they would have one-to-one contact with him. We have splintered families on both sides and it's been disgusting how divided everyone got. I wish in both cases in our family, the victims were heard and believed and supported. @rebeccawriter01 I am so sorry your family treats you that way. Families can be so cruel. I hope you have a supportive group around you of your own loved ones and friends. ❤️

[Father Son Holy Goat]

On 6/3/2023 at 10:30 PM, WatchingTheTireFireBurn said:

My personal experience is that you have to make a choice sometimes to either accept an unacceptable family member and keep the rest of your family OR you have to say no I can't have this in my life and lose your whole family. Especially in the beginning of her marriage/adult life, Jill probably did not have it in her to break ties with her family over Josh. 

It is really weird but you can actually compartmentalize things and go on with your family anyway.

It sucks but it also sucks when your entire family is not going to walk away with you if you go.

 

On 6/3/2023 at 10:57 PM, rebeccawriter01 said:

As someone from a fractured extended family, it sucks big time. You debate whether to come to things if you get invited. You feel like an outsider when you are there. If you choose not to come, you spend a lot of time wondering what is being said. 

I’m very sorry for what both of you went through. Your experiences are similar to my own, it took years to figure out what happened was abuse, and I’m alone without healing. I knew my options were to play nice like nothing happened and continue the decades of trauma and eating disorders or to chose myself, tell my truth and leave my family behind. Perhaps bravely or foolishly, I chose myself. It can be lonely sometimes but I do believe I’m happier than if I’d stayed stuck.

[Father Son Holy Goat]

On 6/3/2023 at 4:47 PM, Bluebirdbluebell said:

The real question to me is what did Mary know. Mary was there a lot and supposedly she wanted to have television to promote Christian values. Mary may have known a lot more than we know.

And how much power did Mary have to stop it? The documentary briefly talks about Jim Bob’s childhood poverty; did Grandma Mary realistically have the option to risk her living situation? 

[marmalade]

56 minutes ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

And how much power did Mary have to stop it? The documentary briefly talks about Jim Bob’s childhood poverty; did Grandma Mary realistically have the option to risk her living situation? 

Mary died a wealthy woman. She lived at the TTH when JL was sick, but owned her own properties. I think she just liked being close to family, and she chose Jim Boob in her latter years, living in the JB-owned pool house. I have no clue why she made the choices she did, but she remained close to Amy and Deanna, so no harm, no foul until all hell broke loose after her death.

[Bluebirdbluebell]

16 hours ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

And how much power did Mary have to stop it? The documentary briefly talks about Jim Bob’s childhood poverty; did Grandma Mary realistically have the option to risk her living situation? 

She had money. She had been investing in real estate for decades. If anything, she seemed to have more than they did before television.