Jinjer 58: Going for the DMIN

[viii]

3 hours ago, Freejin said:

But she has to have been referencing this as well in a subtle way. No?

No. 

[OldFadedStar]

13 hours ago, AussieKrissy said:

do tell please? 

Kelton Bad?

 

12 hours ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

I know I’m going to regret asking, what did Jeremy do that was desturbing?
 

 

It wasn't so much of an action, but how controlling I felt he sounded afterwards. "Jinger herself told me herself she was confused. But I wasn't. I saw everything clearly. I knew we would be a good couple. I knew she was good for me, and I was good for her. I knew that whatever she was confused about, whatever she was afraid of, I could help her get through it. I needed her to let me." Then he said she was coldhearted a few paragraphs later. He wouldn't leave after she rejected him. It was after she rejected him that him and JB spent 7 hours talking about the theological difference (Calvinism vs. armenism I think. Pretty much All can be saved vs Only the select can be saved). 

I would say this could be considered cute by other people...but knowing what we know about how Jinger and Jeremy interact on lives and such, it gives me a "I will have Jinger for my wife" vibe instead of a "I love her and will do anything for her" vibe. 

[SassyPants]

I could easily see this as J and J sitting down and trying to figure out the easiest way to make money, while at the same time not p*ssing anyone off. And voila, the religious book of freedom was born. I don’t think Jeremy wanted to burn the whole thing down Ala the Dillards. He wants it all…the beautiful wife, the heady, intellectual career, LA status and money. They need money so they found a solution. I will applaud Jinger for supporting her family, but she is no more truly free than she was in Tontitown. Yes, she can wear pants, and buy new stuff, but is that all she really wants to do with her life? At least with some of the Bateses women, they are free to explore careers and make their own money (while their husbands do the same). What do we ever see Jeremy doing for his family independent of Jinger? Jeremy apparently does for Jeremy and the rest is left to Jinger.

[AprilQuilt]

If Jinger isn't writing a takedown of her family it's because she doesn't want to. 

In her mind, the narrative is only her religious path. I suspect the world of Gothardism/IBLP is regarded as pretty freaky deaky by the circles she now moves in, and probably the conservative Christians who follow her, and so to her the genuine story is not how she escaped her abusive family but how she learned to express and practice her Christian faith in a less rigid/prescriptive manner than the way she was brought up. That's what her audience wants, and that's what matters to her. She's showing that you can be Godly while also being a shiny LA girl who wears shorts to play tennis and listens to Regina Spektor.

So many of her fans/readers probably watched her grow up on TV and felt fondly about the Duggars - maybe even envious of that lifestyle. They probably don't regard them as a bunch of toxic hypocrites, more a kind of cosy curiosity with one bad apple. They don't want to see that fantasy blown wide open, they want to see Jinger move on while maintaining the values they share with her. I don't think it's Jinger's conflict aversion that's stopping her from writing a tell-all, but more her attitude that most of her family aren't that bad. Like, they're a bit embarrassing to her, she keeps in touch with the ones she loves and gets on harmoniously with, but she's never going to live near them or be very like them again. I think that's the extent of her 'rebellion' and she's comfortable with it. So I'd never have held my breath for any kind of tell-all from her, because she'd simply never think it necessary. I think even Jill and Derick would couch a tell-all in terms of moving out of fundamentalism into small-c conservatism, and centre their enduring Christianity.

[QuiverFullofBooks]

My Kindle copy of their book was still on the section about this from the last time we discussed it. They mostly just say “theology,” but there are a few clues. Maybe someone who knows about Calvinism can explain it.

- “doctrines of grace”

- John 6 

- 2 Corinthians 5 (Jeremy says that he spent about three hours talking about it to Jim Bob, who was probably praying to escape)

The big crisis over this happened at an unspecified conference, where two things made Jim Bob decide he was okay with it. First, he heard someone humming “Come Thou Fount” and singing only the line “Daily I’m constrained to be.” Jeremy had been talking about the verse “the love of Christ constrains us” a lot, so Jim Bob took it as a sign. Second, he (and Michelle) talked to three pastors they knew who were at the conference, who all told them not to worry about it.

[neuroticcat]

7 hours ago, Freejin said:

But she has to have been referencing this as well in a subtle way. No?

Does anyone know when that documentary is coming out??

Tia Levings (ex fundie wife on instagram) just got a book deal for her memoir. The book sounds amazing. In the description it says she is interviewed in the upcoming documentary due out in spring 2023.

"St. Martin’s Press executive editor Eileen Rothschild acquired world English rights from Trinity McFadden at the Bindery to A Well Trained Wife: My Escape from Christian Patriarchy. In the memoir, Tia Levings describes growing up in a fundamentalist evangelical
culture and enduring church-sanctioned domestic abuse. After breaking loose from the church, St. Martin’s said, Levings became an activist for those affected by religious trauma, exposing the realities of Christian fundamentalism. As a writer, creator, and content specialist, she “explores the female narrative in patriarchal spaces.” In spring 2023, Levings will appear in an Amazon Prime documentary on the Institute of Basic Life Principle, which some former members charge is a cult. A Well Trained Wife is set to be released in winter 2024."

[neuroticcat]

3 hours ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

My Kindle copy of their book was still on the section about this from the last time we discussed it. They mostly just say “theology,” but there are a few clues. Maybe someone who knows about Calvinism can explain it.

- “doctrines of grace”

- John 6 

- 2 Corinthians 5 (Jeremy says that he spent about three hours talking about it to Jim Bob, who was probably praying to escape)

The big crisis over this happened at an unspecified conference, where two things made Jim Bob decide he was okay with it. First, he heard someone humming “Come Thou Fount” and singing only the line “Daily I’m constrained to be.” Jeremy had been talking about the verse “the love of Christ constrains us” a lot, so Jim Bob took it as a sign. Second, he (and Michelle) talked to three pastors they knew who were at the conference, who all told them not to worry about it.

My guess on John 6 would be vs. 64-65 "For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him. And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." 

I vaguely remember it being about predestination vs. Free Will which would be in line with the theological underpinnings of their respective churches. MacArthur/Jeremy are on the Calvinist/predestination end of things and Gothard is much more Arminian/free will (simplification of things). It often is a theobro pissing contest, but I can see it being a line in the sand for JB, b/c so much of Gothard's prosperity-ish pseudo Bible application has to do with those who choose to do right receiving blessing. So extreme Calvinism (blessing of salvation is only for those predestined etc) a complete theological rejection of Gothard's entire worldview/philosophy. A serious hard-core Gothardite would never be a Calvinist and vice versa.  

I could also imagine a scenario where Jeremy kind of pompously decides the Duggars actually really aren't "saved" and need to hear the True Gospel (which isn't inconceivable TBH, since that seems to be where Jinger has landed with this tell-all). So he could have tried to evangelize Jim Bob with those passages out of Gothard's cult-like legalism. 

My guess also is that those deep in Gothard for so many years have truly felt (kind of like the JW's due) they are the only true Christians. They've probably been warned away from various Christian leaders who their followers might conceivably switch loyalties too (MacArthur's the competition). Jeremy was (and is maybe?) still heavily involved in MacArthur adjacent G3 conference with a bunch of other reformed thought leaders. So that could be the conference. Or it could be that he was at some IBLP or homeschooling conference and some quasi-sane pastors were like: Dude, these are nonessentials. Jeremy is a conservative Christian. 

We were family friends with a Gothard convert family in the 80's/90's. I've mentioned it here before, but their youngest daughter grew up and married a young man from a super conservative homeschooling family. He was not, however, IBLP, and her parents did not attend the wedding and last I heard remain estranged. I think there are a lot of people who tiptoe around the edges of IBLP. They're maybe Mennonite foremost and then just apply certain IBLP principles. But the inner circle of IBLP truly are cult members, and it's their church..

In that sense, it's probably comparable to an evangelical fundie wanting to marry a Catholic fundie. They might have a lot of social beliefs in common, but their theologies would put them at odds.

I mean Gothard's stuff is chock full of Bible verses but he defines and interprets and applies them all. It's not really in the realm of traditional Christian teaching even the way, say, a fundamentalist baptist church would be. I think there are Christians in IBLP, in the sense that they hold to basic tenets of the faith, and also a bunch of other people who are just extremely religious. So I imagine for Jinger, she sees her memoir as a true conversion story.

 

[QuiverFullofBooks]

33 minutes ago, neuroticcat said:

Jeremy was (and is maybe?) still heavily involved in MacArthur adjacent G3 conference with a bunch of other reformed thought leaders. So that could be the conference. Or it could be that he was at some IBLP or homeschooling conference and some quasi-sane pastors were like: Dude, these are nonessentials. Jeremy is a conservative Christian. 

It was the latter. Jim Bob invited Jeremy to come to the conference. It seems like it wasn’t one of the ATI family jamborees, because only Jim Bob, Michelle, Jeremy, Jinger, Ben, and Jessa seem to have been there. There are probably enough clues in the book to identify it. I was being a little snarky about how they avoid mentioning IBLP.

[Cam]

6 hours ago, AprilQuilt said:

If Jinger isn't writing a takedown of her family it's because she doesn't want to. 

In her mind, the narrative is only her religious path. I suspect the world of Gothardism/IBLP is regarded as pretty freaky deaky by the circles she now moves in, and probably the conservative Christians who follow her, and so to her the genuine story is not how she escaped her abusive family but how she learned to express and practice her Christian faith in a less rigid/prescriptive manner than the way she was brought up. That's what her audience wants, and that's what matters to her. She's showing that you can be Godly while also being a shiny LA girl who wears shorts to play tennis and listens to Regina Spektor.

So many of her fans/readers probably watched her grow up on TV and felt fondly about the Duggars - maybe even envious of that lifestyle. They probably don't regard them as a bunch of toxic hypocrites, more a kind of cosy curiosity with one bad apple. They don't want to see that fantasy blown wide open, they want to see Jinger move on while maintaining the values they share with her. I don't think it's Jinger's conflict aversion that's stopping her from writing a tell-all, but more her attitude that most of her family aren't that bad. Like, they're a bit embarrassing to her, she keeps in touch with the ones she loves and gets on harmoniously with, but she's never going to live near them or be very like them again. I think that's the extent of her 'rebellion' and she's comfortable with it. So I'd never have held my breath for any kind of tell-all from her, because she'd simply never think it necessary. I think even Jill and Derick would couch a tell-all in terms of moving out of fundamentalism into small-c conservatism, and centre their enduring Christianity.

I agree 100% with your book summary! Even tho neither of us has read the book! 

[patsymae]

So Jeremy went to Jboob AFTER Jinger turned him down? Because he knew better? I hate this douche more than ever now.

[QuiverFullofBooks]

1 hour ago, patsymae said:

So Jeremy went to Jboob AFTER Jinger turned him down? Because he knew better? I hate this douche more than ever now.

Well, there’s some context. They were all at the conference and everyone was arguing about theology. Jinger, who hates conflict, woke up one morning and just couldn’t deal. She told Jeremy that she didn’t want to cause division and broke off the relationship, then spent a day or two looking distant. Jeremy obviously knew that her attitude might change if the conflict was resolved, which was indeed what happened.

[Idlewild]

Well Jeremy had seen his friend Ben hit the jackpot with a pretty wife, JB funded house and a spot on a TV show, all achieved with neither charm nor talent, so I doubt he was going to give up easily.

[JMO]

I watched the video out on YT.  She admitted that it was the Big Sandy conference and talked about what a huge change it is for her to step away from Gothard.  I guess it is but her beliefs don't seem all that different to me.  She's still the submissive fundie wife, just in shorts.  

[Mama Mia]

14 hours ago, Idlewild said:

Well Jeremy had seen his friend Ben hit the jackpot with a pretty wife, JB funded house and a spot on a TV show, all achieved with neither charm nor talent, so I doubt he was going to give up easily.

Interestingly I remember that Ben and Jessa said they spent a lot of their courtship discussing and debating theology. I’m guessing JB felt his specific beliefs were less threatened by the combination of a very young Ben/ strong willed Jessa marriage —  than with older, much more worldly, already? a Preacher Jeremy and permanently passive Jinger. 

[marmalade]

7 hours ago, JMO said:

I watched the video out on YT.  She admitted that it was the Big Sandy conference and talked about what a huge change it is for her to step away from Gothard.  I guess it is but her beliefs don't seem all that different to me.  She's still the submissive fundie wife, just in shorts.  

It was at that Big Sandy conference when she realized how many people had left the IBLP. They were at a different conference when they broke up (much earlier). 

[Kayleigh83]

My honest feelings on this are good for her. Progress is progress. There always seems to be this idea floating around that if someone doesn't go straight from IBLP to ultra-leftie atheist, nothing notable has happened and why are we even talking about it. I think there's room for a lot more nuance looking at the situation personally.

She's got a deep hole to climb out of with an upbringing like she had, and she's still young. Sure she's still firmly in the camp of what most would consider a conservative Christian, but there are shades of grey even there. I think it's hard to deny she's shifted a lot of her beliefs in ways that maybe don't seem significant enough from the outside looking in, but felt seismic for her. And just the fact that she still did that I think says a lot - she didn't come from a world that championed people examining and changing their beliefs, or expressing dissent in any way. Especially women. So to evolve at all in that aspect, even gradually, I think should be applauded.

She's still young, and who knows whether she might continue to change her beliefs and social stances as time marches on. But every person who gets out of the clutches of IBLP and its truly toxic beliefs, even if it's just to some slightly less toxic beliefs, I count as a move in the right direction.

 

Edited November 10, 2022 by Kayleigh83
spelling

[Freejin]

24 minutes ago, Kayleigh83 said:

My honest feelings on this are good for her. Progress is progress. There always seems to be this idea floating around that if someone doesn't go straight from IBLP to ultra-leftie atheist, nothing notable has happened and why are we even talking about it. I think there's room for a lot more nuance looking at the situation personally.

She's got a deep hole to climb out of with an upbringing like she had, and she's still young. Sure she's still firmly in the camp of what most would consider a conservative Christian, but there are shades of grey even there. I think it's hard to deny she's shifted a lot of her beliefs in ways that maybe don't seem significant enough from the outside looking in, but felt seismic for her. And just the fact that she still did that I think says a lot - she didn't come from a world that championed people examining and changing their beliefs, or expressing dissent in any way. Especially women. So to evolve at all in that aspect, even gradually, I think should be applauded.

She's still young, and who knows whether she might continue to change her beliefs and social stances as time marches on. But every person who gets out of the clutches of IBLP and it's truly toxic beliefs, even if it's just to some slightly less toxic beliefs, I count as a move in the right direction.

 

Yes to all of this!

[Cam]

7 hours ago, Kayleigh83 said:

My honest feelings on this are good for her. Progress is progress. There always seems to be this idea floating around that if someone doesn't go straight from IBLP to ultra-leftie atheist, nothing notable has happened and why are we even talking about it. I think there's room for a lot more nuance looking at the situation personally.

She's got a deep hole to climb out of with an upbringing like she had, and she's still young. Sure she's still firmly in the camp of what most would consider a conservative Christian, but there are shades of grey even there. I think it's hard to deny she's shifted a lot of her beliefs in ways that maybe don't seem significant enough from the outside looking in, but felt seismic for her. And just the fact that she still did that I think says a lot - she didn't come from a world that championed people examining and changing their beliefs, or expressing dissent in any way. Especially women. So to evolve at all in that aspect, even gradually, I think should be applauded.

She's still young, and who knows whether she might continue to change her beliefs and social stances as time marches on. But every person who gets out of the clutches of IBLP and its truly toxic beliefs, even if it's just to some slightly less toxic beliefs, I count as a move in the right direction.

 

I’m much more cynical. Reddit has a post that details how awful MacArthurism is. I don’t see Jinger moving beyond the lateral move she made from one misogynistic, patriarchal religion to another. Like many say, she’s still in a cult but gets to wear shorts now. The proverbial putting lipstick on a pig. She went from obeying her father to obeying her husband. I get that it often takes years to deconstruct but I think Jinger plateaus at this stage. 

Edited November 10, 2022 by Cam

[FiveAcres]

1 hour ago, Cam said:

I’m much more cynical. Reddit has a post that details how awful MacArthurism is. I don’t see Jinger moving beyond the lateral move she made from one misogynistic, patriarchal religion to another. Like many say, she’s still in a cult but gets to wear shorts now. The proverbial putting lipstick on a pig. She went from obeying her father to obeying her husband. I get that it often takes years to deconstruct but I think Jinger plateaus at this stage. 

I agree. And I am particularly concerned about cults that allow their members to pass as "mainstream." The USA gives far too much privilege to Christian religion. 

[viii]

I see both sides of this coin. On one hand, I do think it's a step in the right direction - even if it's a baby step. But on the other hand, I can easily see Jinger being satisfied with this and not making any more attempts for independence. 

I almost prefer the religions where it is completely obvious that they are separated from the secular world, because you can see them coming. When you see somebody who looks just like you and has techniques on how to manipulate and befriend you, and you don't see it coming because they literally seem like an average person, that's very dangerous. 

[Kayleigh83]

5 hours ago, Cam said:

I’m much more cynical. Reddit has a post that details how awful MacArthurism is. I don’t see Jinger moving beyond the lateral move she made from one misogynistic, patriarchal religion to another. Like many say, she’s still in a cult but gets to wear shorts now. The proverbial putting lipstick on a pig. She went from obeying her father to obeying her husband. I get that it often takes years to deconstruct but I think Jinger plateaus at this stage. 

I certainly hope she continues moving, I've also been reading some Reddit threads and while they often say the same things about MacArthurism and its awfulness (and I have no love for Calvinism generally) there are also lots of people who themselves have moved and seen others move away from IFB and IBLP type circles, and they say that's often what it looks like. Not one giant leap to the left and "freedom" but a gradual progression through stages of awful, slightly less awful, only kind of awful and onwards.

So I'm not trying to give more credit than she's due, but I also don't think that just because she's taking baby steps, that necessarily means she'll stop right where she is. Maybe she will, maybe she won't. But we'll see.

5 minutes ago, viii said:

I see both sides of this coin. On one hand, I do think it's a step in the right direction - even if it's a baby step. But on the other hand, I can easily see Jinger being satisfied with this and not making any more attempts for independence. 

I almost prefer the religions where it is completely obvious that they are separated from the secular world, because you can see them coming. When you see somebody who looks just like you and has techniques on how to manipulate and befriend you, and you don't see it coming because they literally seem like an average person, that's very dangerous. 

I agree with you here - passing mainstream is not a good thing. But again on the flip side of that coin, you can say that in the position she's in in terms of not being so sheltered from "the world", she is exposed to a lot more people who live and think differently than her. Even while still being in a conservative Christian.

She started IBLP/IFB and through that was exposed to the whole MacArthurism thing, literally abandoned the teachings of her family which is not small for someone like her, even if to us it's just two flavours of fundamentalism. Perhaps now in that sphere of influence she is also exposed to some other way of life or world view that eventually leads her away from MacArthurism too. Maybe she's not, or she resists any further growth. We can't know. But it's not impossible and pitstops in various forms of fundamentalism and conservatism are probably to be expected is more my point.

Edited November 10, 2022 by Kayleigh83

[Cam]

Well, as the saying goes, I’ll only believe it when I seeit.

[Bastet]

  On the plus side regarding Jinger’s potential for further change, any kind of religious change—and I agree that the one Jinger made feels momentous to her—can show her that change is not only possible but can feel really good, be clearly positive. This is important. 
  On the minus side, it is hard for anyone to change without some impetus plus support in their environment, especially if real change could result in isolation. And from what we hear, she is a people pleaser so she will even more than most of us need a receiving community of the like-minded whom she is close to—which she gained when she married Jeremy and made some changes. Jeremy would have to change, but that’s not on the horizon. Or he would have to horribly abuse her, but even then she, like so many women, would stay. (There is no evidence of abuse aside from what the cult’s misogyny demands.)    
 

  I think she will stay put. I can imagine her thinking her life has turned out better than she anticipated.  

 

Edited November 10, 2022 by Bastet

[imokit]

Jinger has moved from one cult to the same cult in a different dress.

But

However shitty her beliefs are, she (and Jeremy) are putting the wellbeing of their daughters over their profit.  They are grifting very hard to make money using publicity and trading of the Duggar name.  More kid pics and pics of their kid's faces will make them more money.  They are choosing not to do this.

Putting child welfare (even in this tiny way) over their own welfare (more money = more books, clothes etc) is a baby step but it is an important step.

I don't think JB or M would be able to consider making sacrifices for their children or ever balancing a child's need with their own.

It doesn't take away from the abusive cult those girls are being raised in.  But its a significant baby step which gives me hope.

[Father Son Holy Goat]

On 11/8/2022 at 12:04 PM, QuiverFullofBooks said:

My Kindle copy of their book was still on the section about this from the last time we discussed it. They mostly just say “theology,” but there are a few clues. Maybe someone who knows about Calvinism can explain it.

- “doctrines of grace”

- John 6 

- 2 Corinthians 5 (Jeremy says that he spent about three hours talking about it to Jim Bob, who was probably praying to escape)

The big crisis over this happened at an unspecified conference, where two things made Jim Bob decide he was okay with it. First, he heard someone humming “Come Thou Fount” and singing only the line “Daily I’m constrained to be.” Jeremy had been talking about the verse “the love of Christ constrains us” a lot, so Jim Bob took it as a sign. Second, he (and Michelle) talked to three pastors they knew who were at the conference, who all told them not to worry about it.

Good. Let Jim Bob feel trapped and wish for escape like everyone else does when he’s around.
 

On 11/9/2022 at 11:06 PM, Kayleigh83 said:

My honest feelings on this are good for her. Progress is progress. There always seems to be this idea floating around that if someone doesn't go straight from IBLP to ultra-leftie atheist, nothing notable has happened and why are we even talking about it. I think there's room for a lot more nuance looking at the situation personally.

She's got a deep hole to climb out of with an upbringing like she had, and she's still young. Sure she's still firmly in the camp of what most would consider a conservative Christian, but there are shades of grey even there. I think it's hard to deny she's shifted a lot of her beliefs in ways that maybe don't seem significant enough from the outside looking in, but felt seismic for her. And just the fact that she still did that I think says a lot - she didn't come from a world that championed people examining and changing their beliefs, or expressing dissent in any way. Especially women. So to evolve at all in that aspect, even gradually, I think should be applauded.

She's still young, and who knows whether she might continue to change her beliefs and social stances as time marches on. But every person who gets out of the clutches of IBLP and its truly toxic beliefs, even if it's just to some slightly less toxic beliefs, I count as a move in the right direction.

 

I remember Jinger saying she wanted the big city life, I’m glad she got that.
 

17 hours ago, Cam said:

I’m much more cynical. Reddit has a post that details how awful MacArthurism is. I don’t see Jinger moving beyond the lateral move she made from one misogynistic, patriarchal religion to another. Like many say, she’s still in a cult but gets to wear shorts now. The proverbial putting lipstick on a pig. She went from obeying her father to obeying her husband. I get that it often takes years to deconstruct but I think Jinger plateaus at this stage. 

I will say as someone who has had to do their own deconstruction, sometimes being stuck can look and feel like plateaus. Jinger’s kids are young and she’s the main breadwinner, in a few years when the kids are older she may be in a different place. At least I hope so. 

Edited November 11, 2022 by Father Son Holy Goat