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Jinjer 58: Going for the DMIN


Coconut Flan

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3 hours ago, treehugger said:

We were strongly encouraged to have a joint bank account only, because the temptation to divorce would be easier if we had separate accounts, and also my husband couldn’t be a proper leader if he wasn’t in charge of the finances.

Hubs and I ran into this too. His response was "hell no, she's better with money than I am, she can tell ME how much I can spend". About 6 months before he died, he put me as a co-owner of his bank account. Mine has always belonged to me, myself and I. But, yes, we got a lot of shit from "churchy" people, saying bullshit like we really weren't married b/c we had separate bank accounts. Hub would be like "so, you're saying our marriage license is invalid?" He could smart-ass people in a huge way. I only wish I was that quick. 

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It is really fascinating to me that none of the married Duggar daughters married a hard core, inner circle,  IBLP man.  Why no David Waller or Brandon Keillen (?) for them?  Why no boy version of Kendra?
I’m not saying they should have, it’s just really interesting they didn’t.  I won’t pretend to understand the different permeations and nuances of fundie dom, and where it ends and just basic conservative Christian begins. But it seems, as an outsider, that none of the married daughters are living by the guidelines their parents wanted.  They are all married to Christian men, have kids, and don’t hold down full-time outside the home job-jobs. But that’s about it. Jessa certainly comes closest- but she’s hardly a meek adoring gaze type wife.  And her husband is apparently the original rebel. The other 3 are indistinguishable in everyday life from any other SAHM of young kids who has some sort of home business. Do you think it’s the Josh dark cloud? The fame and worldliness? Is JB known to be just that overbearing? 

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1 hour ago, feministxtian said:

Hubs and I ran into this too. His response was "hell no, she's better with money than I am, she can tell ME how much I can spend". About 6 months before he died, he put me as a co-owner of his bank account. Mine has always belonged to me, myself and I. But, yes, we got a lot of shit from "churchy" people, saying bullshit like we really weren't married b/c we had separate bank accounts. Hub would be like "so, you're saying our marriage license is invalid?" He could smart-ass people in a huge way. I only wish I was that quick. 

Good for your husband challenging them with a smart reply. 
Maybe this is because I’m not American but I am appalled that anyone at your church thought they had the right to even ask about your banking arrangements. I would have given them a rather cool stare and told them, politely but firmly, to mind their own business. I find this level of intrusive nosiness to be unacceptable and, to be honest, rather vulgar. And yes, before you ask, I am British!

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4 hours ago, Mama Mia said:

It is really fascinating to me that none of the married Duggar daughters married a hard core, inner circle,  IBLP man.  Why no David Waller or Brandon Keillen (?) for them?  Why no boy version of Kendra?
I’m not saying they should have, it’s just really interesting they didn’t.  I won’t pretend to understand the different permeations and nuances of fundie dom, and where it ends and just basic conservative Christian begins. But it seems, as an outsider, that none of the married daughters are living by the guidelines their parents wanted.  They are all married to Christian men, have kids, and don’t hold down full-time outside the home job-jobs. But that’s about it. Jessa certainly comes closest- but she’s hardly a meek adoring gaze type wife.  And her husband is apparently the original rebel. The other 3 are indistinguishable in everyday life from any other SAHM of young kids who has some sort of home business. Do you think it’s the Josh dark cloud? The fame and worldliness? Is JB known to be just that overbearing? 

I think JB will be stricter now. I bet he’s learned his lesson. The 4 little girls will probably have to marry guys that are all in. Like a Bontrager, Bowers, or Waller. 

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I wonder if part of the thinking ten-ish years ago was using marriage to bring more people into the cult who were already primed to respond to that. I'd argue Austin is pretty hard-core and their families knew each other for years, but the first three sons-in-law fit my earlier statement. Didn't work out that way with any of them, clearly, so I do wonder what's next for the lost girls.

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5 hours ago, Mama Mia said:

It is really fascinating to me that none of the married Duggar daughters married a hard core, inner circle,  IBLP man.  Why no David Waller or Brandon Keillen (?) for them?  Why no boy version of Kendra?
I’m not saying they should have, it’s just really interesting they didn’t.  I won’t pretend to understand the different permeations and nuances of fundie dom, and where it ends and just basic conservative Christian begins. But it seems, as an outsider, that none of the married daughters are living by the guidelines their parents wanted.  They are all married to Christian men, have kids, and don’t hold down full-time outside the home job-jobs. But that’s about it. Jessa certainly comes closest- but she’s hardly a meek adoring gaze type wife.  And her husband is apparently the original rebel. The other 3 are indistinguishable in everyday life from any other SAHM of young kids who has some sort of home business. Do you think it’s the Josh dark cloud? The fame and worldliness? Is JB known to be just that overbearing? 

I bet because they saw the inner workings of Michelle and how she controlled everything. Jessa for sure followed her, Joy a bit, Jill not so much, Jinger not so much...so my theory sucks. 

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Maybe JB always feared the molestation scandal would surface and wanted to ensure the daughters were married. I doubt any of the daughters would threaten to expose it, but there may have been an underlying threat from the husbands that they knew his secrets.

Or else, JB is just a lying asshat and wanted weddings to increase ratings so went along with his daughters’ choices and all the stuff about questionnaires and scrutiny was just puff for the show. Joy and Jill both refer to ‘dating’ before marriage, which contradicts the ‘courtship with a purpose’ line in the show.

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Might there have been an outcry from 19KAC viewers if the older daughters married men who were hard core inner circle IBLP members? Because many people, myself included, at first thought this family was odd but harmless. The daughters’ choices of husbands allowed the Duggar religious cult views to become somewhat diluted and smoothed over and the viewing audience was none the wiser. I feel like JB was continuously meeting and consulting with show producers about storylines, ratings and financial profits. 

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16 hours ago, Coconut Flan said:

I'm definitely not saying it's a good place, but it isn't like it gets portrayed here either.  

I think it's also very important to remember that a lot of these cult churches don't show their full deck of cards to the average visitor. It takes years to slowly groom members of the congregation into the cult. If you start off showing them how crazy and restrictive it is, people aren't going to join. That's why the most successful cults are done slowly over time, easing people into it, so by the time they're introduced to the really vile, controlling aspect, they're not at a place to argue about it like they would have been when they first walked in the doors. 

It's very dangerous thinking to think these churches are harmless. 

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2 hours ago, Idlewild said:

Or else, JB is just a lying asshat and wanted weddings to increase ratings so went along with his daughters’ choices and all the stuff about questionnaires and scrutiny was just puff for the show. 

I’m going with JB’s a lying asshat and did whatever he thought would increase ratings. Jim Bob Duggar’s a snake who sold his soul for a finished house and big bucks. His children - past the golden child who’s been convicted of heinous crimes against children - have been nothing more than pawns to him. 

1 hour ago, viii said:

I think it's also very important to remember that a lot of these cult churches don't show their full deck of cards to the average visitor. It takes years to slowly groom members of the congregation into the cult. If you start off showing them how crazy and restrictive it is, people aren't going to join. That's why the most successful cults are done slowly over time, easing people into it, so by the time they're introduced to the really vile, controlling aspect, they're not at a place to argue about it like they would have been when they first walked in the doors. 

It's very dangerous thinking to think these churches are harmless. 

I’ve been trying to say this but couldn’t come up with the words. I’ve sat in (a John MacArthur adjacent church) women’s “small groups” where women were describing marriages they didn’t realize were abusive and they were told to submit. And after they were given the “you’re not being subservient enough” books they were referred for “biblical counseling.” Biblical “counseling” is a sham and nothing more than victim blaming with some out of context bible verses used to keep them in line.
 

Just because the Sunday service or potlucks might be nice and pretty doesn’t mean John MacArthur and his associates are anything other than high control authoritarian churches in different packaging. No, they’re not the same as ATI/IBLP.  It doesn't mean they’re benign. 

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I think JB was driven by ratings/money. Josh’s wedding got more ratings than a normal episode. Michelle was done having babies (although they wouldn’t have admitted it). What else was going to get them more ratings? So when it looked like Jessa and Jill might have courtships that could turn into engagements, they were happy to announce for ratings sake. 

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I think the ATI families absolutely thought their control methods would work. So they assumed they had "trained up the children" and could marry them off to like minded people and they would continue the indoctrination. That's the bill of goods Gothard sold them, and they were primed to believe/implement it. 

I think when the girls were getting engaged, finding conservative ATI-adjacent males was "enough" b/c they never factored in that their (very) young adult children actually had individual thoughts and agency and were still maturing. Whether the couples evolved or just Jeremy and Derick and Ben knew what to say to get through Jim Bob's "interviews" who knows? 

I think for the younger girls they will either: adapt, kind of like the Bates, where they will just publicly accept that IBLP wasn't the only way; double down and be much more selective about future spouses/cut off the older siblings who are not IBLP; leave the movement themselves (really unlikely for the Duggars so much sunk cost fallacy) 

The fact that anyone is still following IBLP "principles" and that a new generation of parents thinks this will work with their kids, when there's a whole generation of people who did it Right and still ended up with young adult children abandoning ship through full rebellion or Jinger's more acceptable exit. This book will be more damaging to IBLP, though, in my opinion b/c Jinger still is a conservative Christian. So her critique can't quite be dismissed as "well, she was never a Christian to begin with or wants to live in sin" or whatever. 

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They just recently had family camp. It looked like plenty of families attended. So some people are still into the ATI bullshit. But there were tons and tons of jeans seen. There used to be way more skirts at camp. 

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10 hours ago, neuroticcat said:

I will totally read this book BTW. I don't think she's becoming exvangelical or anything like that, but, in many ways, this is bigger than some of the other external steps b/c she's deconstructing faith in a very public way. The fact that she so quickly is writing a book about it indicates she probably still feels evangelical impulse to use this as a ministry opportunity, but still. 

I propose you and @Father Son Holy Goat and anyone else who wishes read it and post about it and save me the heartburn. I’ll take pot shots from the sidelines.

Deal?

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This book will not be the Duggar tell-all we need, just more "how to be a good Christian like me" with her new flavor of Christianity. Swapping one cult for another, like addicts often replacing one addiction with another.

To everyone planning to read this book, I hope you adhere to the Duggar rule to buy used and save the difference. All my reality tv books were purchased used I've never had difficulty finding used copies of Duggar books.

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Are there female students at Jerm’s University? If Jinger wanted to attend seminary would she be admitted (provided she was qualified)? If not, how free is she? What if Jinger wanted to enroll at CSU Northridge or Bakersfield to study music or teaching, would she be allowed? If not, how free is she? If Jinger did not want to hustle to make ends meet, could she refuse? If not, how free is she? Personally, I don’t care about what she wears or what kind of music program they have at their place of worship. I don’t think Jinger is one bit free. Is she less isolated than when she lived at the TTH, yes- and that’s about it.

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40 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Are there female students at Jerm’s University? If Jinger wanted to attend seminary would she be admitted (provided she was qualified)? If not, how free is she? What if Jinger wanted to enroll at CSU Northridge or Bakersfield to study music or teaching, would she be allowed? If not, how free is she? If Jinger did not want to hustle to make ends meet, could she refuse? If not, how free is she? Personally, I don’t care about what she wears or what kind of music program they have at their place of worship. I don’t think Jinger is one bit free. Is she less isolated than when she lived at the TTH, yes- and that’s about it.

https://tms.edu/admissions/
Based on one of the questions being “How will The Master’s Seminary care for my wife and kids?” I’m going with no, Jinger would not be allowed to attend if she so chose. 
eta: women are permitted to attend TMU but not the seminary (TMS)

Edited by Giraffe
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19 hours ago, treehugger said:

and if Jeremy looks at MacArthur as a person to be admired and followed, then I don't believe for a second that Jinger is free.

Especially because there’s enough information out there to assume that he would have handled Josh’s abuse in the exact same way Jim Bob and Michelle did. 
 

https://julieroys.com/john-macarthur-covered-up-pastor-sexual-abuse-witnesses-say/

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"Mission

Through an advanced academic program prioritizing biblical authority and local church discipleship, The Master’s Seminary trains men for pastoral ministry—to preach the Word of God, reach the world for Christ, and teach others to do the same."

"Theological Training

Sem Wives are encouraged to attend seminary classes with their husbands, free of charge. They also have the opportunity to enroll in online courses at the Institute for Church Leadership, attend Grace Equip courses at Grace Church, and pursue ACBC Biblical Counseling Certification. The Master’s University also offers a Master of Arts in Biblical Counseling."

 

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12 minutes ago, HereticHick said:

"Mission

Through an advanced academic program prioritizing biblical authority and local church discipleship, The Master’s Seminary trains men for pastoral ministry—to preach the Word of God, reach the world for Christ, and teach others to do the same."

"Theological Training

Sem Wives are encouraged to attend seminary classes with their husbands, free of charge. They also have the opportunity to enroll in online courses at the Institute for Church Leadership, attend Grace Equip courses at Grace Church, and pursue ACBC Biblical Counseling Certification. The Master’s University also offers a Master of Arts in Biblical Counseling."

 

How nice! The women get to come along to be accountability partners! 

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6 hours ago, HereticHick said:

Do we know anything about Jinger's co-author, Corey Williams?

https://www.amazon.com/Becoming-Free-Indeed-Story-Disentangling/dp/1400335817/ref=sr_1_3

 

She seems to be getting quite a few pre-orders already.  I bet she will do at least a few book signing/appearances in the LA area.

 

Looks like he is the chief communications officer at the seminary.

https://blog.tms.edu/author/corey-williams

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1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

Are there female students at Jerm’s University? If Jinger wanted to attend seminary would she be admitted (provided she was qualified)? If not, how free is she? What if Jinger wanted to enroll at CSU Northridge or Bakersfield to study music or teaching, would she be allowed? If not, how free is she? If Jinger did not want to hustle to make ends meet, could she refuse? If not, how free is she? Personally, I don’t care about what she wears or what kind of music program they have at their place of worship. I don’t think Jinger is one bit free. Is she less isolated than when she lived at the TTH, yes- and that’s about it.

I think the tricky part comes because she would not want those things. She feels free because she is getting to do what she wants without realizing the reason she wants what she wants is because of the atmosphere/cult she’s always been in. If you want more and are told no it’s easy to feel trapped, the ones who are even farther trapped are those who don’t even see it because they’ve been made to feel like they are content and free. 

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2 minutes ago, Travelfan said:

I think the tricky part comes because she would not want those things. She feels free because she is getting to do what she wants without realizing the reason she wants what she wants is because of the atmosphere/cult she’s always been in. If you want more and are told no it’s easy to feel trapped, the ones who are even farther trapped are those who don’t even see it because they’ve been made to feel like they are content and free. 

We can blame JB for unleashing utterly unprepared/dependent individuals (about 10 so far) into society. He trained having your own thoughts right out of his kids. And apparently for females, the only way out of that environment is to find a new, male decision maker. 

Such awful parents are JB and M Duggar.

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I vaguely remember a YouTube video from Jill and Dereck that had something about how he got sort of frustrated with her because she'd just kind of roll over and let him call all the shots. I think that may have been the event that got her into therapy and starting to deconstruct her upbringing. I think Jill has much more agency than Jinger does. Jinger almost seems like a trained dog, doing whatever pleases her master. Jill seems to be a much more independent woman. 

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