Jinjer 58: Going for the DMIN

[viii]

Very true, and it can take years. I was raised in a cult. When I left, I went to a very similar church for years. Then I finally went to a different church for a few years and now I don’t go at all. It’s taken years to get here. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

Just from my observations, there are a couple of ways I’m going about deconstructing from a cult. Neither are fast. But one looks way faster than the other. So I will give an example like Suze Keller. She got pregnant outside of marriage and she left home and had a baby by herself. This looks like she left fundieland quickly. But what is more likely is that a big event made her leave and she tried to deconstruct for many years afterward. It’s not like she left home and said bam! I’m done with this cult I grew up in!  While other people can be steadily deconstructing while still in the cult. Or while switching to a similar church or similar group. The deconstructing takes a long time in both cases but they look very different from the outside perspective. 

[neuroticcat]

I also think sometimes internal things can happen to make you question again. For example, having a daughter was an "aha!" kind of moment for me about various things I had accepted were normal. For instance, my viewpoint changed when I began to see that I would never want her to adopt the complementarian mindset I had adopted. Sometimes it can be seeing one's children reach a certain age when you experienced a significant trauma or making a friendship with an "outsider" or many small-ish changes that can precipitate change. 

The biggest hurdle I see to her progressing beyond MacArthur is Jeremy. Jeremy is all-in theologically, and the whole family benefits from the system. Yes, Jinger seems to be the breadwinner, but Jeremy has some prestige in MacArthur's world, so unless he deconstructs, he is still her "head" and she would have to defy him in a sense to leave that church. 

It's possible he deconstructs, but I think it's harder since men benefit so much more by the system. I think he would have to feel a sense of personal betrayal as a leader or something. 

[Lurker]

31 minutes ago, neuroticcat said:

 

The biggest hurdle I see to her progressing beyond MacArthur is Jeremy. Jeremy is all-in theologically, and the whole family benefits from the system. Yes, Jinger seems to be the breadwinner, but Jeremy has some prestige in MacArthur's world, so unless he deconstructs, he is still her "head" and she would have to defy him in a sense to leave that church. 

It's possible he deconstructs, but I think it's harder since men benefit so much more by the system. I think he would have to feel a sense of personal betrayal as a leader or something. 

The problem with Jinger growing out of McArthurism really is Jeremy.  Yes, he enjoys some prestige in that world but lets face it, it is because he is Mr. Jinger. 

He does have his former soccer career to offer, and a story of sin and redemption, this helps him fit in the bro culture and could appeal to donors.  But... Jinger is probably the highest profile person they have at that church.  Its not like Hillsong that has the Beibers, Kardashians, Jenners, etc.

 Jinger brought some D list star power with her, Jeremy is really Z list but rises in celebrity only because he is Jinger adjacent.   If, after her public baptism in Grace Church, shared in instagram with her 1.4 million folowers, and her new book about leaving IBPL she wants to move more moderate theologically, he will hold on like his lifestyle depends on it.   

[SassyPants]

49 minutes ago, Lurker said:

He will hold on like his lifestyle depends on it.   

Because it does.

[Idlewild]

@neuroticcat that is really interesting about the impact of children on your thought process.

When I was working as a prosecutor (England) we had a lecture about the different way CSA victims are triggered to report their abuse. With men the overwhelming trigger was either the birth of a son or a son reaching puberty. Protection of one’s own children is such a powerful impulse.

[Father Son Holy Goat]

17 hours ago, neuroticcat said:

I also think sometimes internal things can happen to make you question again. For example, having a daughter was an "aha!" kind of moment for me about various things I had accepted were normal. For instance, my viewpoint changed when I began to see that I would never want her to adopt the complementarian mindset I had adopted. Sometimes it can be seeing one's children reach a certain age when you experienced a significant trauma or making a friendship with an "outsider" or many small-ish changes that can precipitate change. 

The biggest hurdle I see to her progressing beyond MacArthur is Jeremy. Jeremy is all-in theologically, and the whole family benefits from the system. Yes, Jinger seems to be the breadwinner, but Jeremy has some prestige in MacArthur's world, so unless he deconstructs, he is still her "head" and she would have to defy him in a sense to leave that church. 

It's possible he deconstructs, but I think it's harder since men benefit so much more by the system. I think he would have to feel a sense of personal betrayal as a leader or something. 

It’s always possible something could happen where the prestige evaporates. The movement could suffer a PR disaster or Jeremy could mess up. 

[QuiverFullofBooks]

After I watched Jed’s fall festival video, YouTube felt that I needed to catch up with the Vuolos. After comparing a video from this summer to Jinger’s book promo video, I think she’s pregnant.

[Cam]

On 11/11/2022 at 8:54 PM, Lurker said:

The problem with Jinger growing out of McArthurism really is Jeremy.  Yes, he enjoys some prestige in that world but lets face it, it is because he is Mr. Jinger. 

He does have his former soccer career to offer, and a story of sin and redemption, this helps him fit in the bro culture and could appeal to donors.  But... Jinger is probably the highest profile person they have at that church.  Its not like Hillsong that has the Beibers, Kardashians, Jenners, etc.

 Jinger brought some D list star power with her, Jeremy is really Z list but rises in celebrity only because he is Jinger adjacent.   If, after her public baptism in Grace Church, shared in instagram with her 1.4 million folowers, and her new book about leaving IBPL she wants to move more moderate theologically, he will hold on like his lifestyle depends on it.   

Yes, I think Jinger will stay entrenched in McArthurism because of Jeremy. She needs the comfort and security of religion. She wants the comfort and security of a marriage. Jeremy is so much part of the patriarchy that he will never loosen his religious views. He will always be able to talk Jinger out of any religious doubts. No, I do not see her deconstructing any further. If I am ever proven wrong, tho, it’d be great.

 

15 hours ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

After I watched Jed’s fall festival video, YouTube felt that I needed to catch up with the Vuolos. After comparing a video from this summer to Jinger’s book promo video, I think she’s pregnant.

Interesting.

Edited November 13, 2022 by Cam

[viii]

The only way I see Jeremy deconstructing is if he sees the damage in his daughters being raised this way and prioritizes their well-being. That being said, I don’t have much faith in that happening. 

[Idlewild]

26 minutes ago, viii said:

The only way I see Jeremy deconstructing is if he sees the damage in his daughters being raised this way and prioritizes their well-being. That being said, I don’t have much faith in that happening. 

I really don’t see that happening. Jeremy hitched his cart to the Duggar horse for fame and money. He has seen first hand how exposing your family to public scrutiny can damage children, but if he was offered a TV show, he’d accept it. I may be ultra cynical but I think the only reason he’s agreed to the girls’ faces being hidden is because nobody has yet offered enough money to reveal them.

[Cam]

7 hours ago, viii said:

The only way I see Jeremy deconstructing is if he sees the damage in his daughters being raised this way and prioritizes their well-being. That being said, I don’t have much faith in that happening. 

I’m sure he will merely want them to simply marry and have children and be a helpmeet to their husbands. He will think that is a fine life for them. 

[viii]

11 hours ago, Cam said:

I’m sure he will merely want them to simply marry and have children and be a helpmeet to their husbands. He will think that is a fine life for them. 

I think you're likely right, but it's still hard to know. Sometimes people can surprise us once they have their own children and start to see the ramifications. I'm not sure Jeremy is there, though. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

I think Jeremy will want to brag on his daughters. So I would guess he wants them to go to college. A Christian college he approves of. I can easily see him bragging on his daughters when they are teenagers because they are the most intelligent and godly. I can also see him allowing them to play soccer if they are interested. Like a league that isn’t associated with a school. He will let his daughters do certain things if it reflects well on him. 

[Pecansforeveryone]

Jeremy is a worldly fundie. He will try to appear as mainstream as possible for his daughters without triggering outrage from Macarthur's higher ups. Christian college almost certainly is fine, especially if it has some name recognition like Baylor.  Soccer, k-12 probably fine. Becoming a mechanic or joining the military probably less so. 

[Coconut Flan]

Education is, of course, fine.  There is a university associated with the church after all.  Plenty of girls who attend the church play sports.  It is not discouraged at all.  The only thing Jeremy really will have to watch is not to disagree with MacArthur on theology or funding the church/MacArthur either publicly or where word could get back to MacArthur.  

[SassyPants]

How about using education? Is that fine too? Jinger works to support the family, so I’d think JV would think working might be OK. Of course, JB put Jinger and her sibs to work to support his family too. 

[Coconut Flan]

Of the few families I know who attend there, all of the wives work outside the home.  They all have college degrees and no one thinks it's other than normal.  One of the wives is pretty much the boss of the family.  Her husband is given directions on when to pick up the kids and where to drop them off and what to pick up for dinner.  

[molecule]

Jinger is now offering subscriptions to her Instagram account for $2.99 a month.

[sableduck]

While I have many, many problems with MacArthur, there is no discouragement for women to attain education or work outside the home.  Homeschooling is not a big thing, especially past elementary school. Women and girls play sports. I’ve known several MacArthur fan families/people who had attended his church at one point and they were indistinguishable from any other modern Christian family that you’d meet. In at least two of the families I’ve known the wife had more education than the husband and was the breadwinner.

I don’t think their girls will be at all discouraged from higher education or careers. I’m sure they’ll be playing youth sports as soon as possible In that world, Jinger’s lack of higher education probably stands out a bit. 

[patsymae]

18 hours ago, Cam said:

I’m sure he will merely want them to simply marry and have children and be a helpmeet to their husbands. He will think that is a fine life for them. 

I tend to agree but I can also see him wanting them to be part of the high profile Hollywood fundie crowd, like the Camerons or Lisa Welchel. Or even the Boone sisters before a couple married and went rogue (one became Catholic, albeit fundie, I think; and one is married to an Episcopalian priest who performs gay marriages). I can see them setting up podcasts or whatever they have ten years from now with those girls offering advice on how to be a godly teen.

[SassyPants]

1 hour ago, sableduck said:

.

I don’t think their girls will be at all discouraged from higher education or careers. I’m sure they’ll be playing youth sports as soon as possible In that world, Jinger’s lack of higher education probably stands out a bit. 

Then she should get one. If JV can justify school, so can Jing. In fact, as a realist, I’d encourage it.

[Freejin]

2 hours ago, SassyPants said:

Then she should get one. If JV can justify school, so can Jing. In fact, as a realist, I’d encourage it.

Who is JV?

[patsymae]

11 minutes ago, Freejin said:

Who is JV?

Jeremy Vuolo

[clueliss]

Um so on Instagram she’s offering a subscription now.

Spoiler