(CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 51: An Unappealing Appeal

[AussieKrissy]

17 hours ago, FluffySnowball said:

You make a good point. I do wonder, though, what can be said about the issue in general. Like, are there any studies? I’d assume that more often than not, it is better for children to still see and keep in touch with an incarcerated parent, but I’m not sure if I’m actually correct. It’s just my guess based on the idea that a sudden end of the relationship between parent and child(ren) might be traumatic. At the same time, visiting one’s mother or father behind bars might be traumatic, too, but in a different way. 

Whatever the right course of action might be, it’s sad Josh’s children face such obstacles during their formative years and it’s Josh’s fault (and to some extend, I also blame JB, Michelle, Anna, and the cult) they go though all that. 

Your points are completely valid and true, there needs to be a balance between maintaining a relationship and keeping kids safe. 
I am showing my bias because I work in a prison and do not see often  parents putting their kids needs first. So any bias could/would be skewed but the fact that you are not dealing with the most functional parents to begin with. 

[nokidsmom]

On 4/13/2022 at 1:52 PM, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

Josh had a big opportunity when they moved to DC. It was an opportunity he didn't deserve and of course, it was with a hate group in a cesspool. But nevertheless, he could have turned this into something better for himself and his family. Once again, he behaved very, very badly and wound up in a worse place than where he started. 

Josh will not improve in prison. He'll squander any opportunities that come his way.  If anything, he'll come back an even darker, more twisted character.  I'd love to say that's his problem, but given the nature of his crimes and the fact that Anna is delusional, things don't look good right now.

I always thought that Joshley caught a really big break, however undeserved, when he got the FRC job.   It was a chance to not only improve himself but prospects for his family.  It also might have ensured that he never returned to NWA to live under JB's thumb ever again, if that is something he truly wanted for himself.

Instead he imploded in the worst way, damaging his prospects, humiliating his wife and returning back to NWA to live under Daddy because that was the only person who would employ him.  And even then, he messed up. 

He has not learned and I don't see him engaging in any self improvement efforts in prison.

[SassyPants]

Broken record here…again the Duggars’ approach IS TOTALLY DYSFUNCTIONAL. 8 year old Jana was taking care of babies 24 hours a day, cooking on a stove and doing laundry for 9 people, yet 32 YO Jana can’t go to Vegas or LA without  mommy, daddy or a brother in tow. 12 YO Josh was allowed (required) to use mechanical tools and help to build a house, but married34 YO Josh, father of 7, allows his father to orchestrate and finance his life. Such failures and dysfunction, too numerous to count! There should be a class to study the ill effects of this parenting strategy and laws enacted to end it!

[EmCatlyn]

Reddit has an AMA today by a young woman who grew up IBLP, knows the Duggars and the Holts, and has some new things to say.  She will be answering more questions this evening (around 10 -11 PM Central).

DuggarSnark AMA April 15

Among the more interesting things that might be interesting to this group:

1. Anna and most Duggar supporters believe Josh is innocent and was framed by Tontitown because he had sued them

2. Anna is a loving, caring mother who is trying hard to provide stability for her kids.

3. Anna hates JB and Michelle but keeps her mouth shut because they are supporting her and the kids.

4. Jana is the worst bitch. (Jessa is not.) Anna dislikes Jana and Laura and has said bad things about them to the babysitter.

5. Anna is homeschooling her kids but it appears she is not homeschooling the younger Duggars.

Her comments about pregnancies an courtships (only a couple were arranged, but most courtships are initiated by the couples though they are encouraged by parents) and so on may be on interest in some of the other forums. 

There is a lot more, plus questions she’s been asked and hasn’t gotten to yet.  
She says she’s about Justin’s age so is apparently the youngest AMA the Duggar group has hosted.

[Cam]

4 hours ago, nokidsmom said:

I always thought that Joshley caught a really big break, however undeserved, when he got the FRC job.   It was a chance to not only improve himself but prospects for his family.  It also might have ensured that he never returned to NWA to live under JB's thumb ever again, if that is something he truly wanted for himself.

Instead he imploded in the worst way, damaging his prospects, humiliating his wife and returning back to NWA to live under Daddy because that was the only person who would employ him.  And even then, he messed up. 

He has not learned and I don't see him engaging in any self improvement efforts in prison.

I pretty much agree with all of this. Some people self-sabotage and imo, that's what Josh continues to do. For whatever reasons, his chances of being successful are continually thwarted by his own behavior. [Even famous people can suffer from this affliction, most recently (sorry I have to even reference it) Will Smith altered his career with....well, we all know what he did. Bill Clinton's presidential legacy is forever marred by the Monica Lewinski scandal. Golf great Tiger Woods took a tumble from the pedestal he was on. I'm sure you can think of others.]

[QuiverFullofBooks]

1 hour ago, EmCatlyn said:

Reddit has an AMA today by a young woman who grew up IBLP, knows the Duggars and the Holts, and has some new things to say.  She will be answering more questions this evening (around 10 -11 PM Central).

DuggarSnark AMA April 15

Among the more interesting things that might be interesting to this group:

1. Anna and most Duggar supporters believe Josh is innocent and was framed by Tontitown because he had sued them

2. Anna is a loving, caring mother who is trying hard to provide stability for her kids.

3. Anna hates JB and Michelle but keeps her mouth shut because they are supporting her and the kids.

4. Jana is the worst bitch. (Jessa is not.) Anna dislikes Jana and Laura and has said bad things about them to the babysitter.

5. Anna is homeschooling her kids but it appears she is not homeschooling the younger Duggars.

Her comments about pregnancies an courtships (only a couple were arranged, but most courtships are initiated by the couples though they are encouraged by parents) and so on may be on interest in some of the other forums. 

There is a lot more, plus questions she’s been asked and hasn’t gotten to yet.  
She says she’s about Justin’s age so is apparently the youngest AMA the Duggar group has hosted.

Note that she hasn’t seen the Duggars in person since 2015 and she’s only about 19, so not since she was about 12. They seem to know the same people though.

[SassyPants]

I could absolutely agree with her disliking JB. She has many good reasons. Plus we’ve heard that JB can be verbally abusive when things aren’t going his way. Interesting thought about Jana-

[EmCatlyn]

1 hour ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

Note that she hasn’t seen the Duggars in person since 2015 and she’s only about 19, so not since she was about 12. They seem to know the same people though.

One should always take these things with a sprinkling of salt, but I got the impression she is still in touch with people who are in contact with the Duggars.  Her story about overhearing Anna support the babysitter seems to have happened after 2015, since I don’t think Anna had a babysitter back then. (I may be wrong.) 

These AMAs often give new insights, but I agree that the information may be dated or incomplete.

[Dandruff]

5 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

Among the more interesting things that might be interesting to this group:

1. Anna and most Duggar supporters believe Josh is innocent and was framed by Tontitown because he had sued them

I'd like to know how they think Tontitown framed Josh.  Did they sneak in and set up the Linux partition, download the CSAM, manage to view it remotely while Josh was in front of his computer, then report Josh to the feds?  Was Josh simply demonstrating psychic abilities when he asked the feds whether someone had downloaded CSAM?

Edited April 16, 2022 by Dandruff
spelling, again

[EmCatlyn]

31 minutes ago, Dandruff said:

I'd like to know how they think Tontitown framed Josh.  Did they sneak in and set up the Linux partition, download the CSAM, manage to view it remotely while Josh was in front of his computer, then report Josh to the feds?  Was Josh simply demonstrating psychic abilities when he asked the feds whether someone had downloaded CSAM?

Keep in mind that some conspiracy theories are very vague about the “how.” 😉  The point of this particular theory is not that there is a realistic probability but that it’s the only alternative to Josh being guilty. If you are determined that Josh can’t be guilty, then of course there was a conspiracy.

I get the impression Anna would believe anything that let her believe Josh is innocent.

Interestingly, the AMA person said that Anna visits Reddit and sometimes reads the DuggarSnark posts and gets very angry about them.  I suspect she may be reading FJ also.  You would think some glimmer of the truth would have stirred in her, but apparently she prefers to believe that  Tontiton is sufficiently interested in/threatened by Josh that they had to frame him. 🙄

[indianabones]

8 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

Reddit has an AMA today by a young woman who grew up IBLP, knows the Duggars and the Holts, and has some new things to say.  She will be answering more questions this evening (around 10 -11 PM Central).

DuggarSnark AMA April 15

Among the more interesting things that might be interesting to this group:

1. Anna and most Duggar supporters believe Josh is innocent and was framed by Tontitown because he had sued them

2. Anna is a loving, caring mother who is trying hard to provide stability for her kids.

3. Anna hates JB and Michelle but keeps her mouth shut because they are supporting her and the kids.

4. Jana is the worst bitch. (Jessa is not.) Anna dislikes Jana and Laura and has said bad things about them to the babysitter.

5. Anna is homeschooling her kids but it appears she is not homeschooling the younger Duggars.

Her comments about pregnancies an courtships (only a couple were arranged, but most courtships are initiated by the couples though they are encouraged by parents) and so on may be on interest in some of the other forums. 

There is a lot more, plus questions she’s been asked and hasn’t gotten to yet.  
She says she’s about Justin’s age so is apparently the youngest AMA the Duggar group has hosted.

I managed to find her Instagram through the very small bits of personal information she mentioned about herself. If I was able to do that in ten minutes, I'm sure she's exposed herself to every Duggar-adjacent fundie that happens across that AMA.

[EmCatlyn]

2 hours ago, indianabones said:

I managed to find her Instagram through the very small bits of personal information she mentioned about herself. If I was able to do that in ten minutes, I'm sure she's exposed herself to every Duggar-adjacent fundie that happens across that AMA.

Not surprised.  I think it must be very hard to keep one’s identity secret in an AMA.  I hope she doesn’t get herself in trouble with people she considers friends.

[Jrodseyeliner]

Is the new sentencing date 5 May?  Coming up now. 

[candygirl200413]

@Jrodseyeliner I believe it's either the 24th or 25th of may now.

[watchdog]

Is this thread moderated or something?  I posted a reply, but it doesn't show up.

I was trying to post the link to this YT video and some additional information.
 

 

Edited April 16, 2022 by watchdog
I'm confused!

[samurai_sarah]

@watchdog

Unless you're "in the prayer closet" or "on a journey to the heart", which we inform you about, posts just go through. However, you might want to contact our tech support for help with this issue, since you are not in any kind of moderation.

Edited April 17, 2022 by samurai_sarah

[GuineaPigCourtship]

20 hours ago, indianabones said:

I'm sure she's exposed herself to every Duggar-adjacent fundie that happens across that AMA.

 

17 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

I hope she doesn’t get herself in trouble with people she considers friends.

It's fine. Satan just build a fortress in her heart and now she'll repent if she wants forgiveness.

[Bluebirdbluebell]

Can I just say I hate when anyone calls a woman a bitch or an even bigger bitch without going into detail?

For one thing, I want details meaning I want to know exactly what that means. "Bitchiness" could entail meanness, cruelty, snobbiness, etc. It could also mean standoffish, bossy, reserved, blunt, etc. 

Second of all, all fundies were raised to keep sweet and even those from mainstream backgrounds are to believe that people, especially women, should be nice, warm, welcoming, and friendly all the time. Not everyone has that personality. 

I think this redditur has a bit more deconstructing and growing up to do.

Edited April 17, 2022 by Bluebirdbluebell

[Father Son Holy Goat]

16 minutes ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

Can I just say I hate when anyone calls a woman a bitch or an even bigger bitch without going into detail?

For one thing, I want details meaning I want to know exactly what that means. "Bitchiness" could entail meanness, cruelty, snobbiness, etc. It could also mean standoffish, bossy, reserved, blunt, etc. 

Second of all, all fundies were raised to keep sweet and even those from mainstream backgrounds are to believe that people, especially women, should be nice, warm, welcoming, and friendly all the time. Not everyone has that personality. 

I think this redditur has a bit more deconstructing and growing up to do.

Bitchiness can also mean a woman with boundaries who isn’t doing what someone wants. 

[watchdog]

4 hours ago, samurai_sarah said:

@watchdog

Unless you're "in the prayer closet" or "on a journey to the heart", which we inform you about, posts just go through. However, you might want to contact our tech support for help with this issue, since you are not in any kind of moderation.

Thank you.  Must have just been a glitch the first time.  I promise I've been good!

[EmCatlyn]

1 hour ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

Can I just say I hate when anyone calls a woman a bitch or an even bigger bitch without going into detail?

For one thing, I want details meaning I want to know exactly what that means. "Bitchiness" could entail meanness, cruelty, snobbiness, etc. It could also mean standoffish, bossy, reserved, blunt, etc. 

Second of all, all fundies were raised to keep sweet and even those from mainstream backgrounds are to believe that people, especially women, should be nice, warm, welcoming, and friendly all the time. Not everyone has that personality. 

I think this redditur has a bit more deconstructing and growing up to do.

Yeah, she is very young and she really seemed to enjoy using “shocking” language.  I thought she made clear that she thought Jana was a bitch because Jana was bossy, talked down to younger kids, etc.  Jana apparently offended Anna’s babysitter who I gathered is a good friend of the AMA poster.  

There is at least one other AMA where the poster thought Jana was the sweetest.  It’s a question of perspective.

[watchdog]

7 hours ago, watchdog said:

Is this thread moderated or something?  I posted a reply, but it doesn't show up.

I was trying to post the link to this YT video and some additional information.
 

 

Well, what I was pointing out in the information on this video (since my first reply vanished), was that this doctor was deeply rooted in the IBLP and cozy with the Duggars.  JB & M reportedly contacted him to "counsel" with Josh after he was found to have SA'ed his sisters, and he's alleged to have been tapped to "handle" some of the young victims of Gothard himself.  One of his daughters, who now goes by the name Mary, claims to have been the victim of CSA while she was a SAHD in the early '00s.  She "escaped" in 2008 and has blogged about her ongoing recovery from the mental and physical abuse prevalent in some of these IBLP families.  The link to her blog is https://outoftheshadows2019.blogspot.com.  While not a victim of any type of abuse myself, I have friends who were, and something about Mary's words and some of the commenters rings eerily true.  Often these pervs, such as doctors, pastors, and "Christian" counselors get off on hearing their victims describe the abuse they suffered.  The woman who started this channel, "Down the Rabbit Hole at Bedtime," covers a lot of Duggar stories.  The SOTDRT "Library" needs a major update as I'm sure many of the links are old, but I've added Mary Murphy's blog and DTRHAB YouTube channel.

Please, if anyone wants to see new resources added (or broken links removed), please reply here or PM me.

Here is a direct link to the "FJ Reference Library."
 

 

Edited April 17, 2022 by watchdog

[Cam]

8 hours ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

Can I just say I hate when anyone calls a woman a bitch or an even bigger bitch without going into detail?

For one thing, I want details meaning I want to know exactly what that means. "Bitchiness" could entail meanness, cruelty, snobbiness, etc. It could also mean standoffish, bossy, reserved, blunt, etc. 

Second of all, all fundies were raised to keep sweet and even those from mainstream backgrounds are to believe that people, especially women, should be nice, warm, welcoming, and friendly all the time. Not everyone has that personality. 

I think this redditur has a bit more deconstructing and growing up to do.

Heck, I wasn’t even raised fundie and still experienced all the societal and religious pressure to keep sweet. I wasn’t even consciously aware of it most of my life. Looking back, I can see how I was punished in relationships and in the workforce for not staying in the keep sweet lane. Being outspoken, voicing my intelligent opinion, not idolizing men in power positions all put me in the line of fire yet I was unaware that this was misogyny surrounding me. When I encountered opposition and/or cruelty, I took it personally but now realize it was/is patriarchal oppression geared towards all women.

It can be a matter of perspective. Like Tina Fey and Amy Poehler said, “Bitches get stuff done!”  

[llucie]

About the AMA she barely responded to anything and the few things she did say were gossip. She admits in the AMA all she knows is because other people told her because she herself has not meet with them since 2015 so that makes sense. I dont know if she realizes this but she basically exposed Annas babysitter as a gossiper, doesnt mather she didnt give her name because Anna know who she is. I bet she is not very happy to know she is talking about their private conversations to other people.

To me the comments about Jana and Laura seemed really mean spirited and really troublesome for them that there is this kind of gossip about their relationship going around in their circles. Not surprised that fundies with their homophobic bias are gossiping about that while Anna aparently is still viewed as a great mother.

Edited April 17, 2022 by llucie
spelling

[SassyPants]

The word that I might use to describe Jana is aloof (rather cool and distant). Maybe she never had a chance to define herself and to form close relationships. She seems to be a quieter woman as compared to her closest aged sister. I think she likely kept herself busy with chores and childcare and was also likely to be viewed as an authority figure where her sibs were concerned. Much like Alyssa Webster, I think Jana would make a really good worker. I could see her working as a floater between depts at Lowes;  design or garden center she’s your gal!