(CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 51: An Unappealing Appeal

[Bluebirdbluebell]

4 hours ago, llucie said:

About the AMA she barely responded to anything and the few things she did say were gossip. She admits in the AMA all she knows is because other people told her because she herself has not meet with them since 2015 so that makes sense. I don't know if she realizes this but she basically exposed Annas babysitter as a gossiper, doesn't matter she didnt give her name because Anna know who she is. I bet she is not very happy to know she is talking about their private conversations to other people.

To me the comments about Jana and Laura seemed really mean spirited and really troublesome for them that there is this kind of gossip about their relationship going around in their circles. Not surprised that fundies with their homophobic bias are gossiping about that while Anna apparently is still viewed as a great mother.

Actually it doesn't line up for me, because almost none of the gossip she shares is from before 2015. She seems to know more gossip now than she does about what happened before. It's actually suspicious how much petty gossip this person knows after 2022.

That she thinks Anna is a great mom even if she doesn't leave Josh shows how fundie this person still is. 

 

[llucie]

2 hours ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

Actually it doesn't line up for me, because almost none of the gossip she shares is from before 2015. She seems to know more gossip now than she does about what happened before. It's actually suspicious how much petty gossip this person knows after 2022.

That she thinks Anna is a great mom even if she doesn't leave Josh shows how fundie this person still is. 

 

I meant that because all she shared is gossip it is obvious she is hearing it from her friends who are still in the close circles of the Duggars. 

[Alisamer]

On 4/14/2022 at 3:58 PM, Jackie3 said:

If Josh must return to that home in a few years, with all those small children around, I think its essential to tell the kids the truth. Something along the lines of "If X happens, come and tell Mommy right away." or "No one has the right to. . . " or "Tell me right away if . . . ." 

Information is power, those kids need to know something for their own safety.

I think ALL kids need this info, as soon as they are old enough to understand it, starting very simply and being encouraged and clarified as they are old enough to understand more. Some body parts are private. Your body is yours. You are allowed to say no to an adult, any adult, if they are touching your body without your permission. 

I suspect all these kids are taught "if an adult says jump, you don't stop to ask how high, just jump!" which is frankly dangerous. How can kids be expected to say no if they are taught adults are always to be obeyed instantly? How are they supposed to tell when something happens, if they get punished for being a tattletale? How are they supposed to know that someone grabbing their butt is not OK, when their parents hit them on the butt in the name of discipline?

I think the M kids need this info (and have always needed this info) more than most, but all kids everywhere need to be taught this stuff. 

[Four is Enough]

28 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

I think the M kids need this info (and have always needed this info) more than most, but all kids everywhere need to be taught this stuff. 

After certain things happening in my family's lives, I've completely changed my approach to children. I remember asking my great nephew if he would stand by me and have a photo taken. (We were at cracker barrel, a completely open place) He demurred. His mother told him to come over to me, but I said no. He really didn't know me very well,as we live in two different states and don't see each other too often. Come to find out, the child was being molested by a neighbor. Since that, and reading here, and other things, I allow the child to set the boundary with me.. and if I see a child (that I know) protesting close contact, I might make a remark to the person doing the contact.

[Father Son Holy Goat]

6 hours ago, Alisamer said:

I think ALL kids need this info, as soon as they are old enough to understand it, starting very simply and being encouraged and clarified as they are old enough to understand more. Some body parts are private. Your body is yours. You are allowed to say no to an adult, any adult, if they are touching your body without your permission. 

I suspect all these kids are taught "if an adult says jump, you don't stop to ask how high, just jump!" which is frankly dangerous. How can kids be expected to say no if they are taught adults are always to be obeyed instantly? How are they supposed to tell when something happens, if they get punished for being a tattletale? How are they supposed to know that someone grabbing their butt is not OK, when their parents hit them on the butt in the name of discipline?

I think the M kids need this info (and have always needed this info) more than most, but all kids everywhere need to be taught this stuff. 

This, in a nutshell, sums up the issues in my childhood home. As painful as it was to read I’m grateful you put it so succinctly. I’m going to read this post in therapy this week.

[JermajestyDuggar]

We have a kids’ book about body and consent. It says stuff like you don’t have to hug or kiss a family member if you don’t want to. It’s a good lesson for all kids to learn. 

[Hazelbunny]

I always let my nieces and nephews initiate contact. If they just want to wave hello thats fine and if they want a hug they can have one aswell. I remember hating it when my aunts and uncles and friends of my parents just hugged me as a child whithout asking. Heck, I STILL hate it! My fathers new wife hugged me at our first meeting three years ago. I was in the midst of a major depression and DID NOT wAnT TO BE TOUCHED!! At that moment I wished I had prickles!! My siblings actually flinched at the look I gave HER and later said, if looks could kill, she would have turned to dust on the spot! And she noticed nothing! 

[feministxtian]

My grandson becomes velcro with me. I mean worse than if I took a bath in tuna and laid on the floor for the cats. My granddaughters, not so much. He's an awesome little dude, one who needs that physical touch. Needless to say, I don't mind a bit! 

[Bad Wolf]

The Duggars  are taught to "instantly obey". I've heard Anna use that phrase, and (I think) Joy when she was trying to get the younger ones to practice something as a surprise for the parents.  I've also heard daleks use that same term.

Instantly obey does not seem to come with any boundaries for the kids.

[dawbs]

 

10 hours ago, Alisamer said:

I think ALL kids need this info, as soon as they are old enough to understand it, starting very simply and being encouraged and clarified as they are old enough to understand more. Some body parts are private. Your body is yours. You are allowed to say no to an adult, any adult, if they are touching your body without your permission. 

I suspect all these kids are taught "if an adult says jump, you don't stop to ask how high, just jump!" which is frankly dangerous. How can kids be expected to say no if they are taught adults are always to be obeyed instantly? How are they supposed to tell when something happens, if they get punished for being a tattletale? How are they supposed to know that someone grabbing their butt is not OK, when their parents hit them on the butt in the name of discipline?

I think the M kids need this info (and have always needed this info) more than most, but all kids everywhere need to be taught this stuff. 

Yeah, on of the (several) reasons my autistic kid doesn't get ABA therapy is because things that train compliance to adult whims isn't the way to go (especially considering the abuse rates for folks with disabilities).  It's also why at age 11 she has better sex ed (from me)  than i had at 18. 

Not that it was the goal but, recently she told me that she knows people having at her should have "fuck off jackass" screamed at then and run away.... which might not be quite what i intended to teach a 6 th grade but.... close enough. 

There are so many good books about autonomy now, and like @JermajestyDuggarsays, not having to kiss random relatives is a good start. 

[Father Son Holy Goat]

22 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

The Duggars  are taught to "instantly obey". I've heard Anna use that phrase, and (I think) Joy when she was trying to get the younger ones to practice something as a surprise for the parents.  I've also heard daleks use that same term.

Instantly obey does not seem to come with any boundaries for the kids.

Instant obedience leaves no room for boundaries for the kids. I’m so proud of my childhood self for pushing back against it even if it mean more abuse for me. 

[BlackberryGirl]

We have always told our kids they don’t have to allow kisses and hugs  from anyone if they don’t want. In fact with our littlest grand we don’t even say, “can I have a kiss.” We say, “do you want a kiss?”  Sometimes he does, sometimes he doesn’t. Our older granddaughter has always been a bit…aloof. I don’t think she’s kissed or hugged us since maybe age 7 or so.  Otoh she likes to sit very close and have her feet or legs rubbed… works for us.

[shesinsane]

🙎🏻‍♀️: Can I have a hug?

👶🏻: No.

 🙎🏻‍♀️: Ok. Fist bump?

👶🏻 🤜🤛🙎🏻‍♀️

The kid didn't have to hug against their will, the adult got acknowledged, everyone is happy. The end. 

[Meggo]

My son is a BIG hugger but has to warm up to people. So when we saw family for Easter (first time we had seen my aunt since Christmas of 2019) she did ask for a hug, he said no and she gave him a few options, high five? Fist bump? Wave?

he thought about it and went for a full body hug.

His body is his. He gets to decide who touches it. I pressed him a little on hugging Grandma but only because he had talked for days about how he couldn’t wait to hug her- he just got shy because she is SO different than when we saw her at Christmas. (She has Parkinson’s and we haven’t gotten the meds levelled out yet)

 

[Four is Enough]

My older children had their first example of adults setting boundaries when a friend of mine who doesn't like hugging or even shaking hands came to visit. Our habit became to "bow respectfully in her direction".. hands folded, as one would when saying "namaste".. It became a thing.. we even did it in church for the passing of the peace.

 

[Satan'sFortress]

I can remember having to hug and kiss adults when I was a kid---I hated it.  Some of them were practically strangers. My MIL tried to force my kids to do that, too. We let them know that they didn't have to, but she continued to try to push it--even when they were grown. What a gross thing to do to a person, especially someone who is uncomfortable with physical touch.  I still do not like to be touched by anyone except my husband.  The thought of a massage makes me cringe. 

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

Slowly working my way through the newly released trial transcripts. No new bombshells in there, but it's disturbing to "hear" the trial exactly as it went down, including side bars. It's hard to fathom how Anna - or any one else in that courtroom - could think he wasn't guilty. Jim Bob should have bought used and saved the difference with cheaper attorneys. The outcome would have been the same. 

[Shouldabeenacowboy]

17 hours ago, Meggo said:

My son is a BIG hugger but has to warm up to people. 

I’m totally like your son- big hugger, but only with family and very, very close friends that I’ve warmed up to over the years.

However, I don’t like (random) people touching me in general. Of all the horrible things that Covid brought us, one very good one was that I didn’t feel forced to shake anyone’s hand, or even worse, “c’ mon we’re buddies/cousins/acquaintances, give me a hug”. Nope.

Edited April 19, 2022 by Shouldabeenacowboy

[Howl]

21 hours ago, Bad Wolf said:

The Duggars  are taught to "instantly obey". I've heard Anna use that phrase, and (I think) Joy when she was trying to get the younger ones to practice something as a surprise for the parents.  I've also heard daleks use that same term.

Instantly obey does not seem to come with any boundaries for the kids.

These people have been homeschooled from Day 1 with Gothard's "Wisdom" Booklets. 

Gothard is a pedophile who targeted teen girls with a certain look and age range. He institutionalized zero boundaries for subadults and institutionalized zero repercussions for adults, especially men, who violated the boundaries of children by making the victim responsible for their violation.  It's obvious from reports by the girls he molested that he had some type of foot fetish as well. 

[Father Son Holy Goat]

7 hours ago, Howl said:

It's obvious from reports by the girls he molested that he had some type of foot fetish as well. 

That explains all the flip flops the Duggar girls wore. 🤢

[Four is Enough]

16 hours ago, Howl said:

.  It's obvious from reports by the girls he molested that he had some type of foot fetish as well. 

 

9 hours ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

That explains all the flip flops the Duggar girls wore. 🤢

I've read this before, but Ew. Just Ew-ee-Ew-Ew.

[arareyeah]

On 4/19/2022 at 9:35 PM, Four is Enough said:

My older children had their first example of adults setting boundaries when a friend of mine who doesn't like hugging or even shaking hands came to visit. Our habit became to "bow respectfully in her direction".. hands folded, as one would when saying "namaste".. It became a thing.. we even did it in church for the passing of the peace.

 

This is actually a very common thing in my country especially among Muslims in lieu of handshakes. The religious ones do it because you're not supposed to touch the opposite sex, the secular ones (like me) and others do it out of respect to the religious ones or simply because we don't want to touch someone we're not that close to (i.e strangers, acquittances, colleagues, neighbors). We also do it at weddings, because mostly we do some sort of receiving line on a stage during the reception. With the pandemic going on, you'll see signs reminding you to do the "namaste" thing instead of handshakes everywhere.

We teached our nibblings about consent early on. Mostly our extended fam gets it, but some elders think our nibblings are being impolite/disrespectful because here hand-kissing is a common way to greet the elderly and teachers as a sign of respect. While my parents didn't force us to do it, I remember as a child some people will actually bring their hands to our lips/forehead as we gave them a handshake. Ick. 

[Father Son Holy Goat]

Can we get a site count down until Josh’s sentencing? If creepy sites can count down until a girl is “legal” certainly we can have one for far less creepy reasons.

[Jackie3]

13 hours ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

Can we get a site count down until Josh’s sentencing? If creepy sites can count down until a girl is “legal” certainly we can have one for far less creepy reasons.

What? People do this? For celebrities or jsut random girls?

[Father Son Holy Goat]

9 hours ago, Jackie3 said:

What? People do this? For celebrities or jsut random girls?

Celebrities mostly. As if a 50 year old man crushing on an 18 year old girl vs a 17 years and 364 days old girl is somehow significantly more okay. Sorry creepo, you gross. 

Edited April 23, 2022 by Father Son Holy Goat