Fundy Reaction Responses to Smuggar's Guilty Verdict

[FunFunFundie]

I am in shock. Not because of the Duggars overall - I don't know much about the different people in the family. But about the sheer amount of chutzpah it took to post what Jinger posted. Especially if JB is saying they need to circle the wagons. 

I am 42 years old. I am a professional, with three children of my own, half a country away from my mother, who is feeble and in her 70s. In my family, my mother was the one who ruled it all, she was the one who made all the choices, she was the one who spearheaded the mostly emotional abuse, she *is* the one who, almost 40 years after the sexual abuse started at the hands of my brother, continues to say things like "well, we don't know what role [victim] played in it, so who are we to judge." And leave pictures of him up in her home.

I could not make a statement like Jinger did. I couldn't. And I'm much older than Jinger is, and much farther removed from my parents. The thought of being so openly defiant, publicly, to my mother is making me physically ill. I couldn't do it.

Goddamn. Good job, Duggar women of the second generation. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

Honestly I think it’s pretty easy to condemn Josh right now. However, I would love for the kids and their spouses to condemn JB and Michelle. But I won’t hold my breath. 

[FunFunFundie]

Just now, JermajestyDuggar said:

Honestly I think it’s pretty easy to condemn Josh right now. However, I would love for the kids and their spouses to condemn JB and Michelle. But I won’t hold my breath. 

In my scared-of-my-parents-still perception, condemning Josh when it's clear that they are not supposed to *is* condemning JB and Michelle. It's easy for *me* to condemn Josh. I think that Jinger and Jill are showing remarkable strength.

[gustava]

28 minutes ago, Jinder Roles said:

Being saved is the cornerstone of their lives.

I thought they were saved through the blood of the lamb and accepting Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior.  So couldn't the perv say he'd accepted Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior and his "church" would have to accept that?  Not being snarky.  Serious theological question.

[neuroticcat]

1 minute ago, FunFunFundie said:

In my scared-of-my-parents-still perception, condemning Josh when it's clear that they are not supposed to *is* condemning JB and Michelle. It's easy for *me* to condemn Josh. I think that Jinger and Jill are showing remarkable strength.

I agree. Really any statement outside the patriarch approved statement is a public individuation and separation that is verboten. That this also contains rebuke and strong condemnation when the patriarch released a wisshywashy mealy mouthed statement is a significant public break and took a lot of courage. I am glad they could find strength from their faith in this instance to recognize how evil this all is. I am also glad it seems to perhaps show a path forward for other siblings who might not individuate from JB and Michelle for their own dignity’s sake but may do it to condemn what they feel is evil. In that sense, the cults own teaching may bite them in the ass. The kidults have no critical thinking skills or ability to name their own desires/feelings, but they have been trained to say and live according to what God says. They do have permission to defy the patriarch if he goes against Gods so maybe that will finally empower them.

[SassyPants]

17 minutes ago, Not that josh's mom said:

I frankly don't care who wrote their statement, although it sounds like mostly Jeremy. I am so glad to see someone actually acknowledge Josh's actions and condem them and him. Whether you agree with all the religious wording or not, they didn't try to talk around the truth. Hoping this is an awakening for several more Duggars.

I’ll give them points when they either come out and publicly disavow JB’s approach to child rearing and how he and Michelle handled Josh’s behaviors. And try to support themselves in a manner that is commensurate with their skills. As an example, he could get a job selling haberdashery or waiting tables, and Jinger could work in a coffee shop pouring flat whites and pushing scones. Right now these 2 want their fancy galette and to savor it too.

[GiggleOfGirls]

1 minute ago, gustava said:

I thought they were saved through the blood of the lamb and accepting Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior.  So couldn't the perv say he'd accepted Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior and his "church" would have to accept that?  Not being snarky.  Serious theological question.

He could. However, (at least in the brand of fundy-lite I was brought up in) fellow believers also tend to expect to see the *fruit of that acceptance in the person’s life and if their life was lacking in those fruits then their acceptance could be seen as questionable.

 

*the fruit of the spirit from the Bible 

[imokit]

Yes Jinger and Jeremy said a big F you to Josh.  But I don't think its unforgivable in the eyes of JB & M.

JB & M have never explicitly said Josh is innocent.  They haven't made that the family stance.

Jinger and Jeremy's statement was all nice and biblical, the most biblical of any Duggarling so far.  They didn't explicilty call out JB & M or mention throw them under the bus (that would be unforgivable), they acknowledged Anna and the kids.

I don't think JB & M are going to object it too much, especially when they know that they need the kids to distance themselves from child abuse right now to help protect the brand.  Especially with the press finding out about Jana, and linking them as parents to more child rearing issues.

[neuroticcat]

2 minutes ago, gustava said:

I thought they were saved through the blood of the lamb and accepting Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior.  So couldn't the perv say he'd accepted Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior and his "church" would have to accept that?  Not being snarky.  Serious theological question.

Josh can say that, but if his life does not demonstrate the fruit of salvation, it is a questionable claim. True Calvinists, which I think Jeremy is, would say such a life of hidden sin demonstrates he never was truly saved. It’s not that a Christian couldn’t do that and then repent or struggle. It’s that a true Christian would not do that without repenting. And instead of repenting, Josh hid it and claimed Christianity.

[fluffernutter]

Oh damn now I have to look Jason up and see which one he is 🤣

Damn that didn't help. One of the howlers?

[gustava]

11 minutes ago, neuroticcat said:

Josh can say that, but if his life does not demonstrate the fruit of salvation, it is a questionable claim. True Calvinists, which I think Jeremy is, would say such a life of hidden sin demonstrates he never was truly saved. It’s not that a Christian couldn’t do that and then repent or struggle. It’s that a true Christian would not do that without repenting. And instead of repenting, Josh hid it and claimed Christianity.

So to be truly saved according to whatever they believe, Josh must repent and/or demonstrate struggled?  Do you have Biblical link for that?  Or does it link to Calvin?  Again, not being snarky, just genuinely interested.

[hauntedoklahoma]

Jessa liked Jeremy’s post as well! 

[neuroticcat]

21 minutes ago, gustava said:

So to be truly saved according to whatever they believe, Josh must repent and/or demonstrate struggled?  Do you have Biblical link for that?  Or does it link to Calvin?  Again, not being snarky, just genuinely interested.

I *think* - and I am not an expert on Calvinist theology - that they would look to the below passages. Calvinists believe that some people are predestined for salvation, so you are either elect or not. If Josh is not elect, as revealed by his sin and hypocrisy here, any claim to be saved is false. If he was elect and sinned,  repentance and sanctification (growing stronger in the struggle against sin) would be a sign of his salvation, because the Holy Spirit brings conviction of sin. Hardening your heart against that conviction demonstrates rebellion and raises questions of true election. In a way, your life confirms your salvation or not. 

Non Calvinist conservative Christians would maybe say Josh had “fallen away” and “lost his salvation” rather than that he was never a Christian to begin with. They would probably use the same verses, though. 

Hebrews 6 “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.”

And Hebrews 10 “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.”

Ezekiel 18 “But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die.

“Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear, you Israelites: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin, they will die for it; because of the sin they have committed they will die”

[JermajestyDuggar]

It wouldn’t surprise me if a lot of the grown Duggar siblings felt a lot of anger towards Josh right now. Most people would be angry with him in a similar situation. Look what he’s cost the whole family. Look how many people he’s hurt. However I think they need to direct some of that anger toward their parents as well. But I’m afraid that would take a lot of painful reflection on their parts. And I don’t see it happening anytime soon. 

The thing is, Josh is going to be in prison for awhile. Which means he can be ignored. The family can get together and pretend like everything is fine because Josh is miles away. They can plaster big smiles on their faces and go back to their usual lives. Gothard fundies are so good at shoving feelings down and pretending like everything is fine. Jill won’t do that but I bet some other adult Duggars will. It’s their go to coping mechanism. It’s not like they will get therapy. 

[gustava]

8 minutes ago, neuroticcat said:

I *think* - and I am not an expert on Calvinist theology - that they would look to the below passages. Calvinists believe that some people are predestined for salvation, so you are either elect or not. If Josh is not elect, as revealed by his sin and hypocrisy here, any claim to be saved is false. If he was elect and sinned,  repentance and sanctification (growing stronger in the struggle against sin) would be a sign of his salvation, because the Holy Spirit brings conviction of sin. Hardening your heart against that conviction demonstrates rebellion and raises questions of true election. In a way, your life confirms your salvation or not. 

Non Calvinist conservative Christians would maybe say Josh had “fallen away” and “lost his salvation” rather than that he was never a Christian to begin with. They would probably use the same verses, though. 

Hebrews 6 “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.”

And Hebrews 10 “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.”

Ezekiel 18 “But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die.

“Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear, you Israelites: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin, they will die for it; because of the sin they have committed they will die”

I was raised in the Southern Protestant tradition, which did not take hold with me.  Even today, decades later, I find it confusing.  Josh was not elect so claiming to be saved was false.  If elect and he sinned, he lacks salvation.  I don't condone what he did, but jeez o pete, the rules are convoluted.  Thank you, neuroticat.  I will return to my cheap champagne.

 

[Dominionatrix]

1 hour ago, IrishCarrie said:

Jason Duggar has posted Jinger/Jeremy's statement on his Instagram!

Posting for proof. It’s good to see multiple adult Duggars acknowledge the Josh is guilty. 

[Bipolardanicats]

21 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

It wouldn’t surprise me if a lot of the grown Duggar siblings felt a lot of anger towards Josh right now. Most people would be angry with him in a similar situation. Look what he’s cost the whole family. Look how many people he’s hurt. However I think they need to direct some of that anger toward their parents as well. But I’m afraid that would take a lot of painful reflection on their parts. And I don’t see it happening anytime soon. 

The thing is, Josh is going to be in prison for awhile. Which means he can be ignored. The family can get together and pretend like everything is fine because Josh is miles away. They can plaster big smiles on their faces and go back to their usual lives. Gothard fundies are so good at shoving feelings down and pretending like everything is fine. Jill won’t do that but I bet some other adult Duggars will. It’s their go to coping mechanism. It’s not like they will get therapy. 

I think that may take some time. I was an abused child who fled home and parental control via college and then an early (age 21) marriage.

I couldn't afford therapy until age 35ish and it's only now at age 37 that I'm processing through my emotional suppression issues. That I'm allowed to be angry. That I can still remember the good and happy times while being furious about the physical and emotional abuse.

But it took me years of being in a safe space to get to that point and that was only with cultural honor thy mother and father beliefs not religious as well. And thankfully without having to process it all while in the public eye with everyone knowing what happened.

I hope they get therapy and reach that point. Getting to be angry that I was treated that way is finally sinking in the I was a child I didn't deserve it. I deserved better. It's so freeing and I'm finally treating myself kindly.

All of that was without the fundamentalist taught suppression and just an abused kid taught that anger got her in more trouble.

Edited December 11, 2021 by Bipolardanicats
adding an extra sentence at end

[formergothardite]

20 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

However I think they need to direct some of that anger toward their parents as well. But I’m afraid that would take a lot of painful reflection on their parts. And I don’t see it happening anytime soon. 

Exactly. It is much easier to go the No True Scotsman route and claim Josh was never truly one of them. It will be very hard for many of them to look critically at their beliefs and how religious organizations often create environments where abusers thrive. 
 

It also has to be hard to think critically about their parents. Despite everything I’m sure the Duggar children love their parents and want to have a relationship with them. 

[FunFunFundie]

7 minutes ago, Bipolardanicats said:

I think that may take some time. I was an abused child who fled home and parental control via college and then an early (age 21) marriage.

I couldn't afford therapy until age 35ish and it's only now at age 37 that I'm processing through my emotional suppression issues. That I'm allowed to be angry. That I can still remember the good and happy times while being furious about the physical and emotional abuse.

But it took me years of being in a safe space to get to that point and that was only with cultural honor thy mother and father beliefs not religious as well. And thankfully without having to process it all while in the public eye with everyone knowing what happened.

I hope they get therapy and reach that point. Getting to be angry that I was treated that way is finally sinking in the I was a child I didn't deserve it. I deserved better. It's so freeing and I'm finally treating myself kindly.

All of that was without the fundamentalist taught suppression and just an abused kid taught that anger got her in more trouble.

I hear you, and I’m sorry you went through it.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

3 hours ago, Sabine said:

at the very least he'll spend an eternity or several in purgatory. (lapsed roman catholic here)

They don't believe in purgatory and I believe it only takes a vote of two lapsed Catholics to keep him out.  You and I satisfy that requirement of the heavenly court so he can skip our floor and go straight to hell.

[JermajestyDuggar]

17 minutes ago, Bipolardanicats said:

I think that may take some time. I was an abused child who fled home and parental control via college and then an early (age 21) marriage.

I couldn't afford therapy until age 35ish and it's only now at age 37 that I'm processing through my emotional suppression issues. That I'm allowed to be angry. That I can still remember the good and happy times while being furious about the physical and emotional abuse.

But it took me years of being in a safe space to get to that point and that was only with cultural honor thy mother and father beliefs not religious as well. And thankfully without having to process it all while in the public eye with everyone knowing what happened.

I hope they get therapy and reach that point. Getting to be angry that I was treated that way is finally sinking in the I was a child I didn't deserve it. I deserved better. It's so freeing and I'm finally treating myself kindly.

All of that was without the fundamentalist taught suppression and just an abused kid taught that anger got her in more trouble.

Only Jill is in actual therapy. And she’s the one her parents seem to treat the worst these days. I don’t see any of them getting therapy soon. Even though many of them need it. 

[Mama Mia]

11 minutes ago, Dominionatrix said:

Posting for proof. It’s good to see multiple adult Duggars acknowledge the Josh is guilty. 

Good for Jason. And he’s still at home with the family? Very good. He looked really upset at the trial, and he’s only a couple years younger than Joy, so I’m sure they were close growing up. Plus whatever sister -mom was assaulted.

really, I think they’ve all done an amazing job in their responses. While absolutely no one ever proclaimed his innocence- they obviously would have very much hoped it was a mistake, especially once they heard the horrendous details.
People are talking about how they aren’t calling out their parents — but what I’ve noticed is that the wording is very noticeably calling for support and healing and prayers for all victims, and Anna, and the M’s, and maybe a generic wider family /everyone hurt - but NOT specifically saying - “ my prayers also for my parents who are grieving their son who has caused them pain” or anything remotely specific to them. Or even just an “ I love my family, growing up our parents did their best, this has caused them pain” Which strikes me as —- unusual. 
 

[Sabine]

3 hours ago, FluffySnowball said:

I don’t think Jinger, as a victim of sexual abuse herself, found it particularly fun to write a public statement about her brother. Josh likely traumatized her more than once (the initial assault, the assault becoming public some years ago, and now him ruining the Duggar brand reputation once and for all with his CSA on trial all must have been scarring). 

and that is why I put 'fun' in brackets. 

[Bipolardanicats]

5 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Only Jill is in actual therapy. And she’s the one her parents seem to treat the worst these days. I don’t see any of them getting therapy soon. Even though many of them need it. 

I forgot about that. Another reason this family sucks.

[Satan'sFortress]

1 hour ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Honestly I think it’s pretty easy to condemn Josh right now. However, I would love for the kids and their spouses to condemn JB and Michelle. But I won’t hold my breath. 

I totally agree.  I think Jill's "we have been lied to" was the closest anyone has come so far. And in my wildest dreams, it would be JB/M themselves who would condemn themselves for not helping Josh sooner and for not protecting their daughters. Clearly, that will never happen.