Fundy Reaction Responses to Smuggar's Guilty Verdict

[breakfree]

12 hours ago, FunFunFundie said:

It seems like some of the second-generation families (I mean, at least Josh and Anna) are heading down the same quiverfull path. (I don't know much about most of the siblings, but many had babies and were married very young?) What will say to me more than any words will be if the next generation limits their family sizes. In my own experience, none of my eight siblings or I have more than 3 kids, some are child-free on purpose. It may not be as satisfying to see that as a scathing public indictment of JB and Michelle's parenting, but in my family, long before anybody was able to put words to the trauma, the first step was to stop perpetuating the idea that there is something joyful and magical about having more kids than you can reasonably care for.

I actually think it's looking like many are not quiverful!

Quiverful or almost certainly quiverful based on their current number and timing of kids: Josh and Anna, Jessa and Ben, Joe and Kendra (though the last two couples could still change course and have normal sized families).

Definitely not quiverful based on their own words: Jeremy and Jinger, Jill and Derrick  (though the Dillards have said so much more explicitly).

Very probably not quiverful, though data is limited; have certainly had VERY large and growing gaps between pregnancy 1 and pregnancy 2 if quiverful: Josiah and Lauren, JD and Abby

Might be quiverful or not; not enough data: Joy and Austen, Jed and Katey, Justin and Claire

I think with 10 married kids having only 3 of them definitely be quiverful is actually pretty good and indeed does show some of them have been thinking about their parents parenting and want to do better. 

[Angelface]

I wonder if Jessa reads here? If she does then I imagine her being furious at being grouped with Josh and Joe as adhering most strongly to their parents’ parenting. Josh is a sex offender and Joe is not the brightest button. I cannot imagine that Jessa sees herself as being like them. But, from the point of view of FJ she is. The sad thing about Jessa is that she could be so much better. She and Ben have potential. They seem to love their kids and to spend time with them. Four is not a completely overwhelming number kids but how many more will they have to have (to keep JB happy)? Jessa has oomph, she is quite organised (when she wants to be) and could steer Ben into a more mainstream way of life. But, she, the former difficult daughter, is now the golden child and I imagine that it would be hard for her to relinquish that position and the parental attention. She is the only one of the sister victims who didn’t attend the trial. I know that each victim has to do what is right for them but Ben didn’t attend in her place. I think, and it is only my opinion, that Jessa didn’t want to know the full truth. I think that she wants to be able to minimise what Josh did and if she had gone to the trial that would no longer have been an option. She thinks that she has dealt with it, it was no big deal and she is fine but I think that she has boxed her emotions up and hasn’t processed what Josh did to her. When the molestation scandal first came out Ben appeared to be fuming. Where has that anger gone? Jessa is going to have a wake up call at some point. The Seewald statement about Josh was the closest to that of JB and M. Jessa doesn’t intend to rock the boat. The problem for her is that Jill, Jinger and Joy acknowledge Josh’s guilt and aren’t going to whitewash it. The others who attended the trial have been made aware of the truth and any attempts by Jessa to minimise things will have a very hollow ring. I am sorry that she was a victim as a little girl and I am sorry that she appears to want to continue to conform to what JB wants. 
What does anyone else think? Is Jessa being wilfully stubborn sticking (or appearing to stick to) the status quo? Underneath, might she be slowly processing things? Will any one challenge JB and M for their neglect to protect the girls, for minimising what Josh did, for lying to them, for choosing to protect Josh at the expense of their daughters, for not paying everyone appropriately for their work on TLC the list goes on….

[Jrodseyeliner]

JB and Michelle definitely knew because they implemented the side hugs only for the family. 

[imokit]

According to JB and M, Jana and Jessa were the difficult ones.  They had a lot of extra effort and training put into them to get them to confirm.  Its no wonder they're sticking stronger to their beliefs.  They were the two who's will and ability to think were broken most directly and purposefully.

Jill was the good one, who got praise for telling on people but less discipline and brain washing.  Jinger was the youngest sistermom and I think hid behind Jessa a lot.  For all she's a sister mom she's still kid number 6 of a large family (as opposed to kid no 2) and not loud like Jessa.  Again less parental ability to brain wash Jinger and I suspect a lot of it happened from Jessa teaching it to her.  However close someone is to their similar aged sister, its a different sort of brainwashing.

Joy had even less parental attention then Jinger.  She was in the buddy system and raised largely by Jill (and even Jinger at one point - in one of the early shows, they're all out somewhere and she falls behind and Jinger notices and puts her arm around her and bring Joy back into the pack and they walk together (with buggies).

I'm not surprised that the Jessa is the one who's doubling down the hardest.

[Cam]

2 hours ago, Angelface said:

I wonder if Jessa reads here? If she does then I imagine her being furious at being grouped with Josh and Joe as adhering most strongly to their parents’ parenting. Josh is a sex offender and Joe is not the brightest button. I cannot imagine that Jessa sees herself as being like them. But, from the point of view of FJ she is. The sad thing about Jessa is that she could be so much better. She and Ben have potential. They seem to love their kids and to spend time with them. Four is not a completely overwhelming number kids but how many more will they have to have (to keep JB happy)? Jessa has oomph, she is quite organised (when she wants to be) and could steer Ben into a more mainstream way of life. But, she, the former difficult daughter, is now the golden child and I imagine that it would be hard for her to relinquish that position and the parental attention. She is the only one of the sister victims who didn’t attend the trial. I know that each victim has to do what is right for them but Ben didn’t attend in her place. I think, and it is only my opinion, that Jessa didn’t want to know the full truth. I think that she wants to be able to minimise what Josh did and if she had gone to the trial that would no longer have been an option. She thinks that she has dealt with it, it was no big deal and she is fine but I think that she has boxed her emotions up and hasn’t processed what Josh did to her. When the molestation scandal first came out Ben appeared to be fuming. Where has that anger gone? Jessa is going to have a wake up call at some point. The Seewald statement about Josh was the closest to that of JB and M. Jessa doesn’t intend to rock the boat. The problem for her is that Jill, Jinger and Joy acknowledge Josh’s guilt and aren’t going to whitewash it. The others who attended the trial have been made aware of the truth and any attempts by Jessa to minimise things will have a very hollow ring. I am sorry that she was a victim as a little girl and I am sorry that she appears to want to continue to conform to what JB wants. 
What does anyone else think? Is Jessa being wilfully stubborn sticking (or appearing to stick to) the status quo? Underneath, might she be slowly processing things? Will any one challenge JB and M for their neglect to protect the girls, for minimising what Josh did, for lying to them, for choosing to protect Josh at the expense of their daughters, for not paying everyone appropriately for their work on TLC the list goes on….

Last night, I read up on some of what Jessa said in the Megyn Kelly interview. 

>>> Jessa: “I think in the case of what Josh did, it was very wrong. I'm not going to justify anything that he did or say it was okay. It's not permissible. But I do want to speak up in his defense against people who are calling him a child molester or a pedophile or a rapist," Jessa explained. "That is so overboard and a lie, really."

She continued, arguing that Josh was "young boy in puberty" who was "a little too curious about girls. That got him into trouble and he made some bad choices," she said. <<<

She chalks his behavior up to young boy hormones and bad choices. But then the Ashely Madison scandal comes out. Josh was no longer a boy but was a married man with kids of his own. I wonder what Jessa thought of that behavior? Certainly not criminal but offensive and disappointing and the bad choices here were made by a grown man. It would sicken me if one of my married brothers did something like that.

Then Josh is arrested for the CSAM on his computer. How does Jessa process this now that she’s a wife and mom of four? She nor Ben didn’t seem to need to hear the facts themselves by going to court. Their statement after the verdict seemed deliberately bland and neutral, especially compared to Jinger’s. To me, Jessa seems to want to continue to see Josh as someone merely making bad choices. It sounds like she wanna do the Christian thing by continuing to love him and forgive him his (criminal) sins. She comes across like someone bathing in the Fundy koolaid. 
 

Edited December 14, 2021 by Cam

[JermajestyDuggar]

11 hours ago, Not that josh&#x27;s mom said:

Jer might spend Christmas with his girlfriend's family.

I think they do Christmas after Christmas Day. They did last year. Maybe because so many Wissmanns live far away. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

12 hours ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

I’m hoping someday soon they’ll have a lonely Christmas with just JB and Michelle 

There will always be an adult Duggar kid who needs money so there will always be someone to cozy up to them.  The odds of all 19 going no contact are worse than all the M's staying in the cult as adults, which I think is statistically zero.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

3 hours ago, imokit said:

According to JB and M, Jana and Jessa were the difficult ones.  They had a lot of extra effort and training put into them to get them to confirm.  Its no wonder they're sticking stronger to their beliefs.  They were the two who's will and ability to think were broken most directly and purposefully.

Jill was the good one, who got praise for telling on people but less discipline and brain washing.  Jinger was the youngest sistermom and I think hid behind Jessa a lot.  For all she's a sister mom she's still kid number 6 of a large family (as opposed to kid no 2) and not loud like Jessa.  Again less parental ability to brain wash Jinger and I suspect a lot of it happened from Jessa teaching it to her.  However close someone is to their similar aged sister, its a different sort of brainwashing.

Joy had even less parental attention then Jinger.  She was in the buddy system and raised largely by Jill (and even Jinger at one point - in one of the early shows, they're all out somewhere and she falls behind and Jinger notices and puts her arm around her and bring Joy back into the pack and they walk together (with buggies).

I'm not surprised that the Jessa is the one who's doubling down the hardest.

I agree with this.  Jessa reminds me a lot of one of my family members who is a wonderful person and acknowledges the abuse that happened, but cannot, will not talk about it.  Different in that they don't minimize it, they just went hard NC and closed the chapter in her mind.  It's a very rigid fragility.  If this were my family this relative wouldn't have issued a statement of any kind because it would have been too painful to talk about. 

When it comes to Jessa Idk how much is about finances.  Idk what she makes from her SM followings, but that's not a long term plan and she may be scared of how she will support 4 kids without her parents money.   I don't know if she'll ever leave the cult, but I have a feeling if she does it will be a hard break, not the gradual fade of Jill and Jinger.  If she were to go she's the one I can see telling her parents exactly what she's been keeping inside and making a spectacular exit.  

Who knows though, I don't know these people.  Just a gut feeling from how she presents.  

 

 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

4 hours ago, Angelface said:

I wonder if Jessa reads here? If she does then I imagine her being furious at being grouped with Josh and Joe as adhering most strongly to their parents’ parenting. Josh is a sex offender and Joe is not the brightest button. I cannot imagine that Jessa sees herself as being like them. But, from the point of view of FJ she is. 

I don't think anyone here thinks Josh has ever adhered to their rules, and I've never seen anyone compare Jessa to Joe intellectually.  Idk about the younger kids, but of the older kids I think Jessa is the smartest.  She gets slagged for a lot of things but never that.

In fact I think that's why this stuff is likely harder for her, because I think she does have critical thinking ability she has to deliberately repress in order to maintain the status quo.  Why she wants to maintain it whether it's money, or fear, or just cannot face the cognitive dissonance of acknowledging that the parents she loves failed her so badly (very common in victims) I don't know.  

I'm not judging how she responds to the abuse because she's a victim and she needs to get through this mentally intact any way she can.  I hope she finds peace.  

[Alisamer]

2 hours ago, Cam said:

She continued, arguing that Josh was "young boy in puberty" who was "a little too curious about girls. That got him into trouble and he made some bad choices," she said. <<<

This is something I keep thinking back to. We know, based on what we've heard, that all the children he touched were girls. Apparently all the victims in the CSA described as being in his possession were also girls.

Does anyone think for even one second that if he'd "inappropriately touched" one of the boys, that the situation would be minimized like it was?

I don't think so. I think if there was the slightest hint of homosexuality at all in any way, even just watching gay porn, he'd have been sent to conversion therapy, kept out of the house, treated like a leper, and decried as a reprobate. 

But since it was little girls, he was "too curious" and "made some bad choices". 

I really believe that they are relieved that he's just a pedophile. That being gay would be worse, in their minds, even if it onlly involved consenting adults.

Jim Bob and Michelle and the beliefs they espouse are vile, evil, and damaging.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

6 hours ago, breakfree said:

Definitely not quiverful based on their own words: Jeremy and Jinger, Jill and Derrick  (though the Dillards have said so much more explicitly).

Jinger and Jeremy said in their book that they deliberately waited to get pregnant.  I forget the exact wording but it was clear they were deliberately controlling pregnancy, but they didn't state the method.  And good, the details are no one's business.  

Fertility isn't always hereditary of course, but I don't doubt the Duggar girls who do want to control the size of their families take it into consideration just in case.  I have three kids and I got pregnant immediately as soon as we stopped BC each time.  I had a miscarriage at almost 20 weeks and was pregnant again within a month (oops!) so my daughter has always been overly conscientious when it comes to BC she doesn't want to take any chances that she takes after me in this way.  

[Angelface]

55 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I don't think anyone here thinks Josh has ever adhered to their rules, and I've never seen anyone compare Jessa to Joe intellectually.  

I was specifically referring to breakfree who was speculating about who of the 2nd generation could be thought to be quiverful. Josh, Jessa and Joe were those whom she deemed “almost certainly quiverful”. It was strange to see Jessa was assumed to be in the same group as Josh and Joe. 
 

Jessa must be jumping through hoops to rationalise things trying to make the impossible possible. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

37 minutes ago, Angelface said:

I was specifically referring to breakfree who was speculating about who of the 2nd generation could be thought to be quiverful. Josh, Jessa and Joe were those whom she deemed “almost certainly quiverful”. It was strange to see Jessa was assumed to be in the same group as Josh and Joe. 
 

Jessa must be jumping through hoops to rationalise things trying to make the impossible possible. 

Gotcha.  I assumed she was referring to them in the childbearing aspect, not belief adherence in which case its a neutral fact that of the married kids thus far they seem to be the ones most likely to be "leaving it up to God" and not practicing family planning.  

[SassyPants]

1 hour ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Jinger and Jeremy said in their book that they deliberately waited to get pregnant.  I forget the exact wording but it was clear they were deliberately controlling pregnancy, but they didn't state the method.  And good, the details are no one's business.  

Fertility isn't always hereditary of course, but I don't doubt the Duggar girls who do want to control the size of their families take it into consideration just in case.  I have three kids and I got pregnant immediately as soon as we stopped BC each time.  I had a miscarriage at almost 20 weeks and was pregnant again within a month (oops!) so my daughter has always been overly conscientious when it comes to BC she doesn't want to take any chances that she takes after me in this way.  

Neither of my kids were actually planned. I was late 20s with the first and married for 4 years when she arrived. My son was born 3 years later when I was in my early 30s. To the best of my knowledge I never had unprotected sex prior to the second pregnancy. When my son was 1, my husband had a vasectomy. I’d have had lots of kids had I left it up to God. While my family looks very planned, it was not. And since I was a nurse for nearly 10 years before conceiving, I think I have and had a decent working knowledge on reproductive health and BC use. I did use a diaphragm which was known for having lower efficacy rates.

[Father Son Holy Goat]

7 hours ago, Angelface said:

I wonder if Jessa reads here? If she does then I imagine her being furious at being grouped with Josh and Joe as adhering most strongly to their parents’ parenting. Josh is a sex offender and Joe is not the brightest button. I cannot imagine that Jessa sees herself as being like them. But, from the point of view of FJ she is. The sad thing about Jessa is that she could be so much better. She and Ben have potential. They seem to love their kids and to spend time with them. Four is not a completely overwhelming number kids but how many more will they have to have (to keep JB happy)? Jessa has oomph, she is quite organised (when she wants to be) and could steer Ben into a more mainstream way of life. But, she, the former difficult daughter, is now the golden child and I imagine that it would be hard for her to relinquish that position and the parental attention. She is the only one of the sister victims who didn’t attend the trial. I know that each victim has to do what is right for them but Ben didn’t attend in her place. I think, and it is only my opinion, that Jessa didn’t want to know the full truth. I think that she wants to be able to minimise what Josh did and if she had gone to the trial that would no longer have been an option. She thinks that she has dealt with it, it was no big deal and she is fine but I think that she has boxed her emotions up and hasn’t processed what Josh did to her. When the molestation scandal first came out Ben appeared to be fuming. Where has that anger gone? Jessa is going to have a wake up call at some point. The Seewald statement about Josh was the closest to that of JB and M. Jessa doesn’t intend to rock the boat. The problem for her is that Jill, Jinger and Joy acknowledge Josh’s guilt and aren’t going to whitewash it. The others who attended the trial have been made aware of the truth and any attempts by Jessa to minimise things will have a very hollow ring. I am sorry that she was a victim as a little girl and I am sorry that she appears to want to continue to conform to what JB wants. 
What does anyone else think? Is Jessa being wilfully stubborn sticking (or appearing to stick to) the status quo? Underneath, might she be slowly processing things? Will any one challenge JB and M for their neglect to protect the girls, for minimising what Josh did, for lying to them, for choosing to protect Josh at the expense of their daughters, for not paying everyone appropriately for their work on TLC the list goes on….

Jessa may not be minimizing though, the abuse she went through might not have been as bad as what others went through. Abusers may pick the “easy” victim and Jessa is a firecracker. When I heard one of his original victims hit him I initially thought of Jessa. Basing this idea on the abuse in my own family. 

Edited December 14, 2021 by Father Son Holy Goat

[neuroticcat]

8 hours ago, Jrodseyeliner said:

JB and Michelle definitely knew because they implemented the side hugs only for the family. 

I don’t know. Side hugs are pretty standard with ATI. I also think the cosleeping more likely had to do with how to give everyone a bed in one room and  little kids settle easier at night. It takes quite a bit of work to get little kids to sleep through the night. Cosleeping would have kept little kids from going to get parents in the night, though there were some scenes with TLC where little kids were waking up in master bedroom bed or on the couch. Honestly, ATI think people probably just slept wherever after a certain point.

[LilMissMetaphor]

[EmCatlyn]

10 hours ago, Angelface said:

I wonder if Jessa reads here? If she does then I imagine her being furious at being grouped with Josh and Joe as adhering most strongly to their parents’ parenting. Josh is a sex offender and Joe is not the brightest button. I cannot imagine that Jessa sees herself as being like them. But, from the point of view of FJ she is. The sad thing about Jessa is that she could be so much better. She and Ben have potential. They seem to love their kids and to spend time with them. Four is not a completely overwhelming number kids but how many more will they have to have (to keep JB happy)? Jessa has oomph, she is quite organised (when she wants to be) and could steer Ben into a more mainstream way of life. But, she, the former difficult daughter, is now the golden child and I imagine that it would be hard for her to relinquish that position and the parental attention. She is the only one of the sister victims who didn’t attend the trial. I know that each victim has to do what is right for them but Ben didn’t attend in her place. I think, and it is only my opinion, that Jessa didn’t want to know the full truth. I think that she wants to be able to minimise what Josh did and if she had gone to the trial that would no longer have been an option. She thinks that she has dealt with it, it was no big deal and she is fine but I think that she has boxed her emotions up and hasn’t processed what Josh did to her. When the molestation scandal first came out Ben appeared to be fuming. Where has that anger gone? Jessa is going to have a wake up call at some point. The Seewald statement about Josh was the closest to that of JB and M. Jessa doesn’t intend to rock the boat. The problem for her is that Jill, Jinger and Joy acknowledge Josh’s guilt and aren’t going to whitewash it. The others who attended the trial have been made aware of the truth and any attempts by Jessa to minimise things will have a very hollow ring. I am sorry that she was a victim as a little girl and I am sorry that she appears to want to continue to conform to what JB wants. 
What does anyone else think? Is Jessa being wilfully stubborn sticking (or appearing to stick to) the status quo? Underneath, might she be slowly processing things? Will any one challenge JB and M for their neglect to protect the girls, for minimising what Josh did, for lying to them, for choosing to protect Josh at the expense of their daughters, for not paying everyone appropriately for their work on TLC the list goes on….

If I were one of the Duggars I would not read FJ or anywhere else.  It must be eerie to have perfect strangers talking about your life, fertility, finances, true beliefs, grifting, (lack of) education and the extent to which you were abused. 

Jessa was not the only victim that didn’t attend the trial — Jinger didn’t either.  She was too far away, but we do not know that she would have attended if she had been in Arkansas.

The fact that she was once the “difficult” one and now is the “good child” may be part of the reason that Jessa is so carefully toeing the line. (By the way, “toeing” the line is correct—“towing” isn’t.  The idiom is about stepping along an imaginary line, not about pulling something.)

It is hard to tell what is going on with Jessa, but ever since she allowed her husband to name their kid Spurgeon I have wondered about her ability to assert herself.  Granted, she is only living up to what she was taught.

[Queen Of Hearts]

15 minutes ago, LilMissMetaphor said:

And with that, Derrick is now officially my favorite Duggar adjacent!

[EmCatlyn]

18 minutes ago, LilMissMetaphor said:

What is the context? Where did he post this?

[HerNameIsBuffy]

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