Fundy Reaction Responses to Smuggar's Guilty Verdict

[fundiewatch]

He could have been dabbling in/towards CSAM then. I assume he always preferred some sort of online stuff to Anna. She’s the one who wanted to join “the mommy team” and have baby after baby. I’m sure he was more into food, comforts, and not procreative JimBob/Michelle style loving. 

[Bad Wolf]

When we had our foster kids, they were wards of the state, but we had to get permission from the mom for haircuts, etc. (No dads in the picture.) Once she was sentenced, (45 years) her parental rights were terminated. The haircut thing was sensitive because of native Americans having their customs ignored. Our kids weren't native Americans, but we still had to get permission.

[nokidsmom]

8 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Gothard owns it or just because it's in the same town?  

Yes, it's LaGrange Illinois, hi neighbor.

IBLP headquarters used to be in Oak Brook, that's where the Wallers lived between going to Texas.  Before I knew that when I'd see Oak Brook Tower from the expressway I'd think "I worked there briefly."  After learning about the above every time I see it I think, "the old pervert HQ."

Lived in La Grange for 6 years.  Just off Ogden and La Grange Road. 

During our time there, Mr. No worked in a print shop in downtown La Grange and he seems to remember getting print jobs from IBLP/ATI though he didn't know what it was at the time.

Passed the HQ a lot of time, going to work in Oak Brook. Didn't think much at the time but now?  Yeah I would think also "old pervert HQ" now.

[EmCatlyn]

2 hours ago, Beermeet said:

Watching mainstream porn is one thing but csam?!  Very few can even stomach it, nevermind enjoy it.  I think Josh is wired wrong ( nature) and his family situation didn't help at all ( nurture).  Who knows.  Plenty of pedophiles are not in ATI or any religious cults.  They just are or drugs are heavily involved.   

It's a nice thought that this could be prevented with good parenting but, I don't think it's like that personally.  

Totally agree that Josh is “wired wrong” but not so sure that his interest in CSAM could not have been prevented.  We really can’t know.

As an analogy, a person may have a genetic predisposition to heart problems, but if he lives in a culture where the diet and lifestyle promote heart health, he may do just fine.  A similar person in our culture would have a heart attack before he was 40.  In another example, a person with an extraordinary talent for music might, if the talent is nurtured, become a concert pianist or composer, while another with the same innate ability, in an environment that belittles that talent, might have to settle for singing enthusiastically while tending the farm animals.  For better or worse, we are products of both nature and nurture.

Yes, Josh molested his sisters from the time he was 12 until he was 15 or so.  Obviously some problem with “wiring” right there, but not necessarily a predilection for “little girls.”  The little girls were all he had access to.  If his family had handled the problem right, he might have moved on from this inappropriate interest long before he had the opportunity to molest the youngest.  This is just a possibility (and the guy with the predisposition to heart trouble may still have a heart attack).  The point is that the Duggar parents did everything wrong.

Not all boys in fundie families will become child molesters, porn “addicts,” adulterers and CSAM. Not all who are abused will become abusers.  You have to have the predisposition.  However, the background, the way families handle sexuality and violence, etc. will increase the possibility that someone with the predisposition will become an abuser and/or a pervert .

There are always cases where you can’t blame nurture or lifestyle, the wiring is so defective that even the right intervention doesn’t help.  I am just not sure Josh was one of those cases. 🤷‍♀️

 

[Galbin]

Does anyone know if there are any validated scientific methods that help paedophiles change their thoughts and behaviours? I thought that the very issue with paedophilia was that it was an orientation in the same way I could only ever be attracted to adults. 

Or do certain treatments work if done when people are young?

 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Galbin
Grammar is a real thing!

[ToriAmos]

5 minutes ago, Galbin said:

Does anyone know if there are any validated scientific methods that help paedophiles change their thoughts and behaviours? I thought that the very issue with paedophilia was that it was an orientation in the same way I could only ever be attracted to adults. 

Or do certain treatments work if done when people are young?

 

I think there are different types - opportunistic/situational and then more like 'born that way'. I remember hearing an interesting podcast about a help group for pedophiles who were NOT child abusers—one was a young adult who had always felt that way, always knew it was wrong to act on, never even came close to acting on it, and was trying to gain some level of self-acceptance at least for something he couldn't help. There didn't seem to be any sort of trauma that 'caused' the pedophilia. 

I remember being surprised that it could be a non-pathological state, had never considered it a legitimate 'flavour' of sexual attraction (when not acted on), and just thought, you poor, poor person. Imagine feeling those things.

But don't know how legit all of that it?

[Galbin]

Just now, ToriAmos said:

I remember hearing an interesting podcast about a help group for pedophiles who were NOT child abusers—one was a young adult who had always felt that way, always knew it was wrong to act on, never even came close to acting on it, and was trying to gain some level of self-acceptance at least for something he couldn't help. There didn't seem to be any sort of trauma that 'caused' the pedophilia. 

Yes I listened to that podcast and read the Atlantic article on the group. It seemed like there was no effective treatment though which is why I am curious when people talk about treatment options.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Just now, Galbin said:

Yes I listened to that podcast and read the Atlantic article on the group. It seemed like there was no effective treatment though which is why I am curious when people talk about treatment options.

Whenever I've heard of treatment options it's focusing on controlling the behavior not to act, if there are treatments to remap attraction to adults I'm unaware.  

[Nutella Ace]

Joy just posted a brief statement on her Instagram stories. 

[Mama Mia]

19 minutes ago, Nutella Ace said:

Joy just posted a brief statement on her Instagram stories. 

Wow! Very impressed with Joy’s statement! Direct, to the point, interestingly zero mention of anything religious except for a payer for Anna and HER children - which good job for leaving Josh completely out of that. 

[Jinder Roles]

Yup that's a clear "fuck you" to Josh. And no excusing his behaviour. Based on what was said on reddit and them being at the trial, I think Joy has a lot to process. 

[JDuggs]

Just a discussion point. What do you think the family’s reaction would have been if Josh had been found not guilty? Would they agree that justice had been served or would they just say that they respect the jury’s decision or something else? Jill, Jinger and Joy seem to have made it clear that they think that Josh is guilty. Would they have admitted that if the verdict was different?

[HerNameIsBuffy]

This is a great statement.  Praying for Anna and her children was powerful.

It's going to be rough as they process this, but not as rough as lies and gaslighting.  Actively seeking the truth and getting it is a great first step to healing.  

Joy has more courage than either of her parents can ever hope to understand.

[SassyPants]

38 minutes ago, Mama Mia said:

Wow! Very impressed with Joy’s statement! Direct, to the point, interestingly zero mention of anything religious except for a payer for Anna and HER children - which good job for leaving Josh completely out of that. 

The perfect statement. I like that she totally left her parents out of the discussion. We listened to the evidence and agree with the verdict, perfect. So did the rest of the world. They have compassion for Anna and the M kids.

Edited December 13, 2021 by SassyPants

[anon710]

I'm blown away by Joy's statement. Short and sweet.

I wish it wasn't a story so we could see which one of her siblings, and who in the fundyverse would give it a like. Speaking of, is there some kind of list/spreadsheet of who likes what/who is supporting the verdict and condemning Smuggar?

[EmCatlyn]

On 12/10/2021 at 10:32 PM, Cam said:

My personal belief is that a true God deity would not require the complexity of all the above doctrines. I’m a reasonably intelligent person but keeping everything straight about all those rules in religion does not register in my brain. I never understood Catholicism which I was raised in and even as I later leaned on Pentecostal beliefs I still couldn’t make myself adhere strictly to all its teachings.  When I began to see myself as agnostic and not ruling out atheism, so much of my confusion lifted. Everything seemed much clearer.

My personal belief is that God is completely beyond human understanding and that different religions are built on small insights into aspects of God which is all the humans can perceive.  One of those insights, I strongly believe, is that to love God you must also love your neighbor.  Religions that are attuned to that insight (which may include different ideas of “neighbor”) seem to me to be more on track than religions that are preoccupied with punishment and sin.

I can’t imagine that God cares how we worship.  I think worship of God is for our sake, because it is good for each of us to know that there is something greater out there, the “Higher Power” that we can not understand but which (if we need to) we can revere.

There is a saying, “God is one, but He is known by a Thousand Names.”

I consider myself an Episcopalian but any way that people reach out to God is fine with me, so long as they respect others.  

[feministxtian]

9 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

My personal belief is that God is completely beyond human understanding and that different religions are built on small insights into aspects of God which is all the humans can perceive.  One of those insights, I strongly believe, is that to love God you must also love your neighbor.  Religions that are attuned to that insight (which may include different ideas of “neighbor”) seem to me to be more on track than religions that are preoccupied with punishment and sin.

Yes! To me, it is impossible to understand the mind of God. He is infinite and we are finite. He has infinite wisdom, mercy, grace and justice. Certain folks who think they're so sure they know what God is thinking are a bunch of arrogant pharisees. I think behavior and thoughts will be judged against empty words and ugly behavior. In Matthew 25 it says (paraphrasing) "not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord' will see the kingdom of heaven". It's attached to the whole thing about feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, caring for the sick, etc. There will be those who walk on by and say "be warm and be fed" and those who will do something about it. Those who talk, well...they're up shit's creek. Those who walk, nope. 

The greatest commandment is "love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your mind and all your strength. The second is like it, love your neighbor as you love yourself". That means no hatred, no ugliness, no bigotry, no slamming people as "takers". The way I understand it, God created mankind in His image and likeness. So, that means God is white, God is black, God is Asian, God is straight, God is gay, God is bi, God is Trans. How can you hate someone who was made in the same image and likeness of the creator that you were? When you hate someone, you're saying "I hate this aspect of God". To attempt to judge someone's salvation absent any fruit you see, is impossible. However, it is also written "by their fruits you shall know them". 

I am a Seventh Day Adventist**. I see everyone as a creation of the Creator. I may not like your actions and/or attitudes, but I cannot hate you. I can hope and pray that you will see the damage your hatefulness is doing to you and to everyone else. But I can't hate you. To hate someone is to wish them dead. No thanks...that's too damn close to "Thou shalt not murder" to me. 

**don't believe all the crazy shit you see on line. 

[imokit]

The interesting about Joy's statement, is that it reads that she could be including herself in it.

She doesn't focus on the CSAM until the end, she talks about lots of questions (ie not just CSAM/porn).  She's thankful for the men and women (acknowledging that educated working women were instrumental in bringing Josh down) who protect children from sexual abuse. She then separates it with an "and" help prevent child sexual abuse material.  Joy isn't just taking about the CSAM, she separates it out and talks about it the end.

Joy's of all the statements is the most personal and heart-breaking.  Jill's was a F you Josh and parents (helped along by Derrick).  Jinger's was a biblical F you Josh, you aren't a Christian, but I am (almost certainly written by Jeremy).  Jessa's I can't even remember, other than it towed the party line.

Joy's is probably written by her, it certainly doesn't have the agenda of her sisters, and is short to the point but also personal and I read it as referencing more than the CSAM.

[AussieKrissy]

6 hours ago, Galbin said:

Does anyone know if there are any validated scientific methods that help paedophiles change their thoughts and behaviours? I thought that the very issue with paedophilia was that it was an orientation in the same way I could only ever be attracted to adults. 

Or do certain treatments work if done when people are young?

 

A bullet between the eyes is the only guaranteed way to stop a pedo!  

Edited December 13, 2021 by AussieKrissy
And no it is not an orientation. That language makes it seem like it’s excusable and is being used by pedos to try and bring in laws to decriminalise child abuse.

[ElToro]

1 hour ago, imokit said:

Joy's of all the statements is the most personal and heart-breaking. 

Well, after all, Josh could have chosen to plead guilty and avoided having Bobye's testimony made so public. But he didn't. (Not that this is worse than the actual crimes he committed, but it shows he is still throwing his sisters- esp Jane Doe 4- to the wolves to save himself)

I can't begin to imagine what the past week has been like for Joy, or Austin. Horrific. 

[EyesOpen]

It’s interesting to me that each of the children’s (daughters)statements seem to clearly show their personalities or the personalities of them and their husbands. Joy and Austin seem like more private people, they work on their family farm thing and live their lives and keep things short and sweet. I think this message was direct and to the point… I do think neither Austin or Joy really knew what all had happened and now it seems they do have a lot to process especially Joy and hopefully Austin will be by her side going through that with her. He seemed very serious and very angry coming in and out of that courtroom so I hope he keeps that up and uses his strengths to help get Joy any support she needs. I wonder if we’ll see less of Joy at THH at least for awhile. I would feel very betrayed by my parents if I were kept in the dark and found out they knew…

[sableduck]

I was convinced before the statement that Austin would very much like to take Josh out back and handle things his own way. After the statement, I’m even more convinced.

I think there’s heartbreak and anger between the lines of all the sister’s statements, but especially Joy’s.  

Edited December 13, 2021 by sableduck

[3KidsAndStopped]

I am just adding that I am also impressed by Joy's statement, succinct, measured and acknowledges the verdict. My heart does out to Joy and Austin, they both looked genuinely distressed outside of court. I am glad Joy seems to have found a husband who will support her properly.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

7 hours ago, anon710 said:

I'm blown away by Joy's statement. Short and sweet.

I wish it wasn't a story so we could see which one of her siblings, and who in the fundyverse would give it a like. Speaking of, is there some kind of list/spreadsheet of who likes what/who is supporting the verdict and condemning Smuggar?

I don't do SM so all I know is what's been posted on forums, but someone said on Reddit Claire's like of Jinger and Jeremy's post was removed by the next morning.  

 

[SorenaJ]

There are drugs (androgen suppression therapy) to reduce testosterone levels and alter sex drive so they won't get aroused. 

Look up leuprolide acetate, Degarelix, cyproterone acetate and medroxyprogesterone acetate. 

Not all pedophiles assault kids, and not all who assault kids are pedophiles.

Edited December 13, 2021 by SorenaJ