Fundy Reaction Responses to Smuggar's Guilty Verdict

[patsymae]

3 hours ago, imokit said:

Or the whole Spivey family with kids will decamp to the TTH.  They may have done it during the trial considering that both Spivey parents were there one day.

Is that Claire's family? I wouldn't put it past her mother to have established legal residency so she can vote for JB

[BadMurphy]

13 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

I bet the Seewalds will be the family to suck it up and show up at the TTH both for her parents and for Anna and the kids (if Anna and kids celebrate in AR). And they did spend TGD with the Seewalds

Jd and Abbie were there for Thanksgiving, so I bet they go to OK for Christmas

Dillards- No

Jinger- No

Joe- Nope, they like the Caldwells better 

Josiah- Are they still alive and well?

Joy- They did spend TGD with the Forsyths, so maybe

Jed- Maybe

Justin- No, they were at the TTH for TGD

Jana, Jer, Jason, James, Jackson, Hannie, Jenny, JGM, Josie, Tyler…still a metric ton of people.

 

Yeah I looked at that list and was like “oh hey Joe is missing…oh wait no, Joe is a Caldwell through and through. He even looks like one and I can’t tell Garrett/Isaiah and Brooklyn/Moriah apart anymore either.

[JermajestyDuggar]

1 minute ago, BadMurphy said:

Yeah I looked at that list and was like “oh hey Joe is missing…oh wait no, Joe is a Caldwell through and through. He even looks like one and I can’t tell Garrett/Isaiah and Brooklyn/Moriah apart anymore either.

It’s creepy how much Kendra’s children look like her youngest siblings. 

[Not that josh's mom]

Jer might spend Christmas with his girlfriend's family.

[Cults-r-us]

1 hour ago, imokit said:

 

I don't think Jinger will be spending lots of time back in Arkansas (and I worry about how much of a say she has in that decision).

I take no joy in being harsh to Jinger, but for Rufus' sake girl, if you want to get to decide where you spend your holidays (or any other thing), get some education and get a job. 

[scoutsadie]

52 minutes ago, Satan'sFortress said:

I hope this fits into Fundie Reactions. After reading Jill's statement, but more importantly, Joy's, I can't help but wonder even more what Josh said when he hugged them in court. I get the idea that sometimes you put up with something like a hug or handshake because it is easier to do so than to make a giant scene, but what did he say to them? I can't imagine anything appropriate.  Even an apology would seem wrong somehow. The only possible acceptable thing may be something along the lines of "Please keep Anna and the Ms in your life after I am sent to prison." 

That possibility is more than I could come up with. I can hope he would be that selfless - but I doubt it.

[Father Son Holy Goat]

I’m hoping someday soon they’ll have a lonely Christmas with just JB and Michelle 

[Cam]

Years ago (time flies) when I would catch a few segments here and there of 19KAC, I thought if anyone bolted from the clan it would be Jessa. It surprises me that she still conforms so much.

Some of the details surrounding the Duggar scandals are hazy to me. I guess I always thought Josh’s molestation of the five girls happened over a brief period of time. Now it sounds like he repeatedly molested them over several years. Is that correct? 

I never had to deal with any issues like this when I was growing up with my many siblings. My family had its share of dysfunction but never in this area. It’s upsetting to read that Jinger did not necessarily feel safe in her own home. 

Edited December 14, 2021 by Cam

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 minutes ago, Cam said:

Years ago (time flies) when I caught a few minutes here and there of 19KAC, I thought if anyone bolted from the clan it would be Jessa. It surprises me that she still conforms so much.

Some of the details surrounding the Duggar scandals are hazy to me. I guess I always thought Josh’s molestation of the five girls happened over a brief period of time. Now it sounds like he repeatedly molested them over several years. Is that correct? 

I never had to deal with any issues like this when I was growing up with my many siblings. My family had its share of dysfunction but never in this area. It’s upsetting to read that Jinger did not necessarily feel safe in her own home. 

JB and M told everyone it was a couple of times over the clothes, they didn't even know it happened.

Bobye Holt testified that when Josh confessed to her at 14/15 he said he'd been doing it regularly for 2-3 years.  Also that one (two?) of the girls would hit him trying to fight back.  Bobye told JB and Michelle that day so they've known.  

Those girls could never get a safe relaxing nights sleep. The fear of whether it would or wouldn't happen that night was always there.

Edited December 14, 2021 by HerNameIsBuffy

[Cam]

Wow. I really had no idea it was that extensive. I really bought into the story JB tried to sell that it only happened a few times and it was an over the clothes kind of thing. I remember seeing Jessa talking to the camera saying “Josh got a little too curious” or something like that. She didn’t seem upset with it, only that maybe he got a little carried away. And I believed it.

What was it, was there something that happened that made Josh want to tell an adult about what he was doing? 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Just now, Cam said:

What was it, was there something that happened that made Josh want to tell an adult about what he was doing? 

I honestly don't know.  It seems so very out of character.

[Baba O'Riley]

21 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

JB and M told everyone it was a couple of times over the clothes, they didn't even know it happened.

Bobye Holt testified that when Josh confessed to her at 14/15 he said he'd been doing it regularly for 2-3 years.  Also that one (two?) of the girls would hit him trying to fight back.  Bobye told JB and Michelle that day so they've known.  

Those girls could never get a safe relaxing nights sleep. The fear of whether it would or wouldn't happen that night was always there.

So were they still living in the three-bedroom house when the 2-3 years of molestations were occurring?  Wouldn't JB & M have woken up and heard what was going on?    I have a son and a daughter.  All three of our bedrooms are on the second floor. Even though I was a very sound sleeper, I was so tuned into my kids that I would have  heard any kind of activity like that going on in their rooms.  And my husband is a very light sleeper, he definitely would have heard!

Edited December 14, 2021 by Baba O'Riley
typo

[EmCatlyn]

1 hour ago, Cults-r-us said:

I take no joy in being harsh to Jinger, but for Rufus' sake girl, if you want to get to decide where you spend your holidays (or any other thing), get some education and get a job. 

She may be perfectly happy and not need a say in this.  Remember that she never wanted to be freed. 😉

[Bastet]

25 minutes ago, Baba O'Riley said:

So were they still living in the three-bedroom house when the 2-3 years of molestations were occurring?  Wouldn't JB & M have woken up and heard what was going on?    I have a son and a daughter.  All three of our bedrooms are on the second floor. Even though I was a very sound sleeper, I was so tuned into my kids that I would have  heard any kind of activity like that going on in their rooms.  And my husband is a very light sleeper, he definitely would have heard!

Your house is for sure quieter at night than the Duggars’ was and  perhaps more importantly, you or your husband considered yourselves responsible for dealing with whatever occurred at night. There were Duggar infants and toddlers who would need care during the night, but hadn’t this been delegated to the the older girls already? And  so unlike you, jb and m didn’t awaken to anything at night. Why would they? Parents do that, and they had abdicated most parental responsibilities.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Bastet

[SassyPants]

No one family should have 19 children. It is ludicrous, unreasonable and plain not safely doable. There are only 24hours in a day, even a fundie day. If your children need to make “appointments” to speak with you, their parents, you have too many kids to safely or healthily parent.

[EmCatlyn]

16 minutes ago, Baba O'Riley said:

So were they still living in the three-bedroom house when the 2-3 years of molestations were occurring?  Wouldn't JB & M have woken up and heard what was going on?    I have a son and a daughter.  All three of our bedrooms are on the second floor. Even though I was a very sound sleeper, I was so tuned into my kids that I would have  heard any kind of activity like that going on in their rooms.  And my husband is a very light sleeper, he definitely would have heard!

It was in the three-bedroom house.  I think the 5 girls had one room, but I have read that a couple of the younger boys would also sleep there because there wasn’t room in the boy’s room and this way the sister moms could take care of them.  There may also have been some people sleeping in the living room at times because of the overcrowding.

With only 2 bathrooms and at least 12 kids not in diapers, there was a lot of coming and going at night.  I can forgive Michelle and JB for not noticing that Josh was sneaking out of his bed and molesting his sisters until the first time they became aware. 

We need to remember also that this wasn’t happening every night— it was probably only when Josh felt the “coast was clear” and everyone except him was asleep.

[EmCatlyn]

1 hour ago, Cam said:

What was it, was there something that happened that made Josh want to tell an adult about what he was doing? 

There were two different “confessions” to the Holts.  The first was when Josh was around 14-15.  The second was a couple of years later, when Josh was staying with the Holts while working on the Holt campaign.

The first confession came after JB called the Holts one evening.  Supposedly, it was just after Josh had molested Joy while reading to her.  According to Bobbye, they were given the impression that it had been over clothes and that the other instances were also overclothes and the girls were sleeping.

The second confession happened on an evening when Josh was in the Holt’s house and he came to talk to them and proceeded to tell Bobbye the full details.  (James Holt fell asleep.)  At the time Josh had already been sent away to pray and work and JB had taken him to the friendly state trooper.  I am not sure if Josh told Bobbye that he was still sneaking into his sisters’ room or if he said he had stopped but was tempted or what, but she claims that she told JB and Michelle that Josh needed help, and they brushed her off.

My theory is that the first confession was forced by and somewhat controlled by JB.  Either Josh had first confessed to him or one of the other kids had told on Josh.  Either way, though the Holts were involved, it was more to support JB and Michelle than to help Josh.

I think in the second case Josh seems to have turned to the Holts himself for help.  We can only speculate about what triggered it.  The sad thing is that he didn’t get help.  Instead he was caught watching pornography shortly afterwards and publicly shamed and punished — a procedure started by the Holts.  

Edited December 14, 2021 by EmCatlyn
Mixed up names

[Father Son Holy Goat]

On 12/12/2021 at 8:59 PM, nokidsmom said:

Lived in La Grange for 6 years.  Just off Ogden and La Grange Road. 

During our time there, Mr. No worked in a print shop in downtown La Grange and he seems to remember getting print jobs from IBLP/ATI though he didn't know what it was at the time.

Passed the HQ a lot of time, going to work in Oak Brook. Didn't think much at the time but now?  Yeah I would think also "old pervert HQ" now.

I don’t want to dox him, but I did just find Bill Gothard’s La Grange address. It’s disturbingly close to the high school.

[karenb4729]

3 hours ago, Satan'sFortress said:

I hope this fits into Fundie Reactions. After reading Jill's statement, but more importantly, Joy's, I can't help but wonder even more what Josh said when he hugged them in court. I get the idea that sometimes you put up with something like a hug or handshake because it is easier to do so than to make a giant scene, but what did he say to them? I can't imagine anything appropriate.  Even an apology would seem wrong somehow. The only possible acceptable thing may be something along the lines of "Please keep Anna and the Ms in your life after I am sent to prison." 

He probably said something along the lines of:  Bobye is telling lies, I didn't say that to her.  I can't imagine he would apologize, not at this point.  He would just reiterate the story told in 2015.

[Mama Mia]

1 hour ago, EmCatlyn said:

There were two different “confessions” to the Holts.  The first was when Josh was around 14-15.  The second was a couple of years later, when Josh was staying with the Holts while working on the Holt campaign.

The first confession came after JB called the Holts one evening.  Supposedly, it was just after Josh had molested Joy while reading to her.  According to Bobbye, they were given the impression that it had been over clothes and that the other instances were also overclothes and the girls were sleeping.

The second confession happened on an evening when Josh was in the Holt’s house and he came to talk to them and proceeded to tell Bobbye the full details.  (James Holt fell asleep.)  At the time Josh had already been sent away to pray and work and JB had taken him to the friendly state trooper.  I am not sure if Josh told Bobbye that he was still sneaking into his sisters’ room or if he said he had stopped but was tempted or what, but she claims that she told JB and Michelle that Josh needed help, and they brushed her off.

My theory is that the first confession was forced by and somewhat controlled by JB.  Either Josh had first confessed to him or one of the other kids had told on Josh.  Either way, though the Holts were involved, it was more to support JB and Michelle than to help Josh.

I think in the second case Josh seems to have turned to the Holts himself for help.  We can only speculate about what triggered it.  The sad thing is that he didn’t get help.  Instead he was caught watching pornography shortly afterwards and publicly shamed and punished — a procedure started by the Holts.  

Don’t slam me — but with the way this is laid out — do we even know for sure that Jim Bob and Michelle knew anything more than what was told at that first confession? As I recall it, and I’m not going to dig through and look - the initial story was he got “too curious” over the nightgowns of sleeping Jill, Jessa and the babysitter, told on himself, got the shit beat out of him and counseled/prayed over - sometime later put his hand on the thigh, under the clothes of Jinger and Joy while both were awake - when Joy reacted, the parents were called and that’s when he was sent to fundie boot camp. Is it possible he confessed more to Bobye 2 years later - maybe his boot camp was wearing off? 

[neuroticcat]

7 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

I saw an interview with Jill that said that they were still invited to the big family events but that they didn’t always go because they would be uncomfortable.

Yeah, I can totally see the “loving parent” approach where JB and Michelle can say, “we will always love all our children they are always welcome here” and it being up to the Dillards to draw healthy boundaries. Good for them.

16 minutes ago, Mama Mia said:

Don’t slam me — but with the way this is laid out — do we even know for sure that Jim Bob and Michelle knew anything more than what was told at that first confession? As I recall it, and I’m not going to dig through and look - the initial story was he got “too curious” over the nightgowns of sleeping Jill, Jessa and the babysitter, told on himself, got the shit beat out of him and counseled/prayed over - sometime later put his hand on the thigh, under the clothes of Jinger and Joy while both were awake - when Joy reacted, the parents were called and that’s when he was sent to fundie boot camp. Is it possible he confessed more to Bobye 2 years later - maybe his boot camp was wearing off? 

They knew. They knew enough to take him to the fake police report. They knew enough to send him to fundie camp and design their house to keep him away from the sister room. They knew enough to call around the whole church and tell them it was an attack from Satan. They knew. And if they weren’t 100 percent sure, it was their job to figure it out and protect the girls.

I also think the situation would have been chaotic at night in such a small space. 16 people is a lot of people in a three bedroom house. Also, we know even at the big house, big girls shared beds with little siblings. Other siblings wouldn’t necessarily notice siblings coming and going in that kind of environment. It makes me mad when I think of how unprotected Jim Bob left those kids and how much responsibility the older siblings carried even through the night. It speaks like they sent the little kids off to cosleep with their older siblings. 

[EmCatlyn]

48 minutes ago, Mama Mia said:

Don’t slam me — but with the way this is laid out — do we even know for sure that Jim Bob and Michelle knew anything more than what was told at that first confession? As I recall it, and I’m not going to dig through and look - the initial story was he got “too curious” over the nightgowns of sleeping Jill, Jessa and the babysitter, told on himself, got the shit beat out of him and counseled/prayed over - sometime later put his hand on the thigh, under the clothes of Jinger and Joy while both were awake - when Joy reacted, the parents were called and that’s when he was sent to fundie boot camp. Is it possible he confessed more to Bobye 2 years later - maybe his boot camp was wearing off? 

When he molested Joy there were other kids in the room and/or Joy ran to one of the older girls and the older girl called the parents.  It is probable that Joy couldn’t describe exactly what happened to her but she probably said something like what she said in the police report.  That was bad enough.

We know that at least once, when he started pulling on/removing a blanket, one of the girls woke, realized what he was up to, and reported to the parents.  They knew.

As for Josh’s punishment, he was never sent to “Fundie Boot Camp” until after the Ashley Madison scandal.  Although the place where he was sent the first time became the site of a program shortly after Josh was there, he was never in the program.  If I remember correctly (from FJ discussions around the time of the Megan Kelly interview), Josh was put to work helping fix up a place under the supervision of someone who also led him in prayer, Bible reading, etc. It was pretty “one on one.”   The second time (after the porn viewing) he was sent to dig out the sludge from a pond.  It was hard labor and prayer with limited social contact.

The main reason he was not sent even to Fundie boot camp to cure him of his perversion seems to have been fear that there would be some sort of record. JB and others in their church believed that Josh had a future in conservative politics and they didn’t want what they regarded as “youthful errors” to stand in his way.

[Sabine]

4 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

 

Those girls could never get a safe relaxing nights sleep. The fear of whether it would or wouldn't happen that night was always there.

that may be why they co-slept with the littlies? I thougth that did co-sleep with the babies? 

[Mama Mia]

1 hour ago, neuroticcat said:

Yeah, I can totally see the “loving parent” approach where JB and Michelle can say, “we will always love all our children they are always welcome here” and it being up to the Dillards to draw healthy boundaries. Good for them.

They knew. They knew enough to take him to the fake police report. They knew enough to send him to fundie camp and design their house to keep him away from the sister room. They knew enough to call around the whole church and tell them it was an attack from Satan. They knew. And if they weren’t 100 percent sure, it was their job to figure it out and protect the girls.

I also think the situation would have been chaotic at night in such a small space. 16 people is a lot of people in a three bedroom house. Also, we know even at the big house, big girls shared beds with little siblings. Other siblings wouldn’t necessarily notice siblings coming and going in that kind of environment. It makes me mad when I think of how unprotected Jim Bob left those kids and how much responsibility the older siblings carried even through the night. It speaks like they sent the little kids off to cosleep with their older siblings. 

Right, they knew enough to send him to talk to a cop, and do what they thought was safeguarding, separating rooms, etc etc…. I just am wondering if they didn’t know the full extent that was told to Bobye 2years later. I’m also kind of wondering if since he seemed to actually care about the Holt  girl, or at least her family, maybe he didn’t want to saddle them with….him.

eta: I’m not trying to defend the parents, or Josh, I’m just recalling that sometimes a teen will tell one adult things that they are trying very hard to keep secret from their parents. 

Edited December 14, 2021 by Mama Mia

[EmCatlyn]

27 minutes ago, Mama Mia said:

Right, they knew enough to send him to talk to a cop, and do what they thought was safeguarding, separating rooms, etc etc…. I just am wondering if they didn’t know the full extent that was told to Bobye 2years later. I’m also kind of wondering if since he seemed to actually care about the Holt  girl, or at least her family, maybe he didn’t want to saddle them with….him.

eta: I’m not trying to defend the parents, or Josh, I’m just recalling that sometimes a teen will tell one adult things that they are trying very hard to keep secret from their parents. 

The point is that Josh’s sisters were also reporting to their parents and they knew it was more than touching over the clothes while the girls slept.

As far as the Holt girl goes, Bobye gave the impression that the “courtship” or whatever you call it ended when JB and Michelle revealed the molestation, when Josh was 15.  However, Justin, in I Pray You…says that when he met Josh a couple of years later, Josh was very proud of being betrothed to the Holt girl. It thus appears that the relationship was not ended until after he “confessed” to Bobye.

It’s really hard to know exactly what went on, and it is probable that different people remember it differently.  I don’t think, however, that Josh told Bobye anything that his parents didn’t know. And it appears they didn’t want to deal with it because according to Bobye, when she went to tell them, they refused to listen.