Lori Alexander 80: So Warm and Inviting

[KDA]

2 hours ago, Caroline said:

I'm sorry you know first hand what it's like to be in that position. I've never blamed my mother for her decisions.  She was trapped in an impossible situation. Ironically, I don't hate my father \ because I saw him as a victim of PTSD from a war that damaged 50 percent of the men who returned from it alive (WW2) and weren't given help.

 I recently watched the series "Maid".  I learned a lot more about the situation of women who can't leave an abusive relationship.

My children have never blamed me for my decisions, either. And they don't even really blame their father. They understand that he went through immense trauma that has made him the way he is, and they are incredibly empathetic towards him. It's made them better people, I think. They're certainly not "damaged".

"Maid" is on my "to watch" list on Netflix. I've heard a lot of good things about it. If it helps people understand more about why women stay, then it can only be good. Women in this situation need empathy, understanding, kindness and compassion. Judgment, condemnation, blame and words like "fool" make it so much harder and so much worse.

Something my social worker said to me when I was working with Women's Refuge has stuck with me: on average, it takes women 7 attempts before they finally are able to leave. Seven. That's a lot. I'm 100% certain Anna Duggar wouldn't have been given even one opportunity to leave, let alone seven. Yet she's a fool? No. She's a victim. I hope she has people around her who can build her up again, because right now, she will be broken.

[Sarah92]

21 hours ago, KDA said:

I didn't read comments past this so I might have missed something relevant but do you have any idea WHY women stay with their abusive husbands? I could tell you, from my own personal experience (which is only the very tip of a very large iceberg), but I'm not sure that it would make any difference to you, and the level of empathy you appear to have for these women.

ETA: Staying with a husband who is abusing the kids is different to staying with a husband who is only abusing you. It's still insanely difficult to leave, but it's easier when your kids are being hurt.

I feel desperately sorry for Anna Duggar. From what I know of that family, she wouldn't have been allowed to leave, no matter how much she may have wanted to. That kind of fundamentalist church simply wouldn't have let her. It's hard for us non-crazy-fundamentalist wives to leave abusive husbands. But Anna would never, ever have had that choice. It just wouldn't have been an option available to her, I don't think.

I do actually know why many women stay because I work with those women on a regular basis and I have a great amount of compassion for women who are in abusive relationships. Online it’s hard to speak on all the nuances that I think on this topic. I look at Anna’s situation as being different than a typical case. 

What I’m specifically talking about are women/parents who look at their child and tell them things “I don’t believe you”. Their child’s suffering is not enough to help them make better choices. I’ve known mothers who have stayed with men who have been accused of raping multiple generations within their family, daughters and grandchildren,  and they still stay married. In my opinion, By staying Anna is telling those babies that have been harmed through this videos and materials that their suffering is pointless to her. I’m leaning towards the opinion that she is now an abuser herself. Perhaps I have strong feelings on this because I hear my clients’ stories and the lasting pain they suffered. I will say though that ultimate responsibility lies within the abuser who is evil enough to hurt others. 
 

So yes I do understand the difficulties around leaving psychological, physical, financial etc. However, Anna has been offered help multiple times from her family even before this and now her husband is a known child predator so I hope she finally leaves and saves her children further suffering. 

[KDA]

3 hours ago, Sarah92 said:

So yes I do understand the difficulties around leaving psychological, physical, financial etc. However, Anna has been offered help multiple times from her family even before this and now her husband is a known child predator so I hope she finally leaves and saves her children further suffering. 

I hope she leaves, too. It will be much easier for her, with Josh in jail. As long as she doesn't follow the advice of that idiot Lori is in love with (Michael Pearl I think) who told one woman to visit her husband in jail and take the kids along too! Anna and her children need a fresh start, away from Josh, and probably away from his family, too. This is her chance to move on. And even if it takes her 7 attempts, she's got (hopefully) 20+ years to do it, before he gets out of jail.

I was unaware Anna had been offered help from her family to leave. Everything I have read states the opposite. Maybe I'm reading the wrong things.

[Melissa1977]

3 hours ago, KDA said:

I was unaware Anna had been offered help from her family to leave. Everything I have read states the opposite. Maybe I'm reading the wrong things

Her unfundie brother offered her help to leave Smuggar after the Ashley Madison scandal. I'm sure her sister Rebecca (the rich one, who is also non-fundie) would help her, too, because she looks compasionate and helped the other sister who left  fundamentalism. Conversely, her parents (and siblings Priscilla, Nathan and David) are OK with her staying, because it is the duty of a wife.

But when brother offered help, that help meant changing all her life and Anna doesn't want to change. Anna stayed that divorce was the worst for the children. She is no doubt scared of having a job. So she is staying no matter what, because she thinks the alternative is worse. And I suspect she feels superior than her no-fundie siblings and in no way wants to be a divorced working mama. 

[HoneyBunny]

What exactly does she mean here?  All male?  All white?  All singing and dancing?

No LazyLori, the military was NEVER like this. War has never been like this. As mentioned above, 50% of WW2 veterans had mental issues from dealing with the war’s fallout. War is ugly, difficult and soul sucking, and I believe that the military should accept any qualified person willing to make the sacrifice. 
 

Also, another girl in that family?  Jesus weeps.

Edited December 12, 2021 by HoneyBunny

[Caroline]

1 hour ago, HoneyBunny said:

What exactly does she mean here?  All male?  All white?  All singing and dancing?

No LazyLori, the military was NEVER like this. War has never been like this. As mentioned above, 50% of WW2 veterans had mental issues from dealing with the war’s fallout. War is ugly, difficult and soul sucking, and I believe that the military should accept any qualified person willing to make the sacrifice. 
 

Also, another girl in that family?  Jesus weeps.

What alternate universe is Lori living in?  I'm the same age as she is.  How can my world view be so different?

Once again, I'm so grateful I had the sense and freedom to question religion and patriarchy in general as a young person.  I'm not putting down believers (reasonable ones), but I realized early on that organized religion and all the rules of the one I was exposed to weren't for me - and I was allowed to make that decision without being criticized or shunned.  

 

[crawfishgirl]

15 hours ago, usmcmom said:

Alyssa has posted on Instagram that they have adopted a baby girl, born Decmember eighth. No name or other details. 

Hell.  I feel sorry for any female child that is part of that family.  Can you imagine the gender loathing that is taught by Lori?  And the clear favoritism toward the male children?  Lori will be sure to brainwash any dreams out of that kid's mind.  Alyssa has mentioned possibly adopting a baby with a different racial background, though I don't know this child's background.  Since we've seen signs of racism from Lori, and definitely from her followers, I worry that she might be treated differently for that as well.  Regardless, Lori will probably always see her as inferior, since she doesn't have the superior Alexander genes.  I feel bad for any child that is part of her family, but especially for this baby.

Edited December 12, 2021 by crawfishgirl
clarification

[usmcmom]

18 minutes ago, crawfishgirl said:

Hell.  I feel sorry for any female child that is part of that family.  Can you imagine the gender loathing that is taught by Lori?  And the clear favoritism toward the male children?  Lori will be sure to brainwash any dreams out of that kid's mind.  Alyssa has mentioned possibly adopting a baby with a different racial background, though I don't know this child's background.  Since we've seen signs of racism from Lori, and definitely from her followers, I worry that she might be treated differently for that as well.  Regardless, Lori will probably always see her as inferior, since she doesn't have the superior Alexander genes.  I feel bad for any child that is part of her family, but especially for this baby.

I agree with all of this. I also keep remembering how Lori once said single mothers should give their kids to godly families. I can’t help but feel like the birth mother will be vilified in that family. They’ll say she didn’t “walk in truth” and that she sinned…blah blah blah. 
 

Something just feels off about Alyssa’s whole “adoption journey.”  I get the feeling it is a social media tool for her.  

[Jackie3]

14 hours ago, KDA said:

I'm 100% certain Anna Duggar wouldn't have been given even one opportunity to leave, let alone seven.

Let's not infantilize Anna. She doesn't need to "be given" a chance to leave. She needs to put on her big girl pants and find an opportunity. Nothing is stopping her from calling a shelter today and leaving all of this.

1 hour ago, Caroline said:

What exactly does she mean here?  All male?  All white?  All singing and dancing?

 

Besides, her sons never set foot in the military, nor has her husband. Who is she to say who protects our country? 

[older than allosaurs]

26 minutes ago, usmcmom said:

Something just feels off about Alyssa’s whole “adoption journey.”  I get the feeling it is a social media tool for her.  

I don't follow Alyssa and don't have an opinion on her approach. But I do have adopted children who are themselves adoptive parents, so I've got advice about "adoptive journeys." 

First and foremost: shut up about it on social media. This is actually the child's journey and the child's story to tell, later, if they choose to. Adoptive parents should find their own private places to go on about our experiences and our feelings.

The more we publicly center ourselves as parents, the harder it is to keep in mind that our kids didn't audition for this Hallmark movie -- they had no choice and no voice in the role they are playing. 

I'm proud of my children for lots of reasons, and one is they have never once used their children's stories for image building.

[Jackie3]

50 minutes ago, usmcmom said:

Something just feels off about Alyssa’s whole “adoption journey.”  I get the feeling it is a social media tool for her.

I don't like Alyssa or Lori, but come on. There's a huge amount of work involved to even submit a home study. There's more work involved in preparing that profile book and waiting for someone to choose you. Then there's the work of raising a child! No one does this as a social media tool.

She wants another child. She probably can't have any more herself. So she's adopting. I do think she should stay off social media, but I doubt she went through all this as a "tool." There's a lot of emotion involved when you adopt a child (I've done it myself, so I know). I imagine she's just seeking support from friends to help her on her journey. There are better ways, though.

Edited December 12, 2021 by Jackie3

[older than allosaurs]

12 minutes ago, Jackie3 said:

I don't like Alyssa or Lori, but come on. There's a huge amount of work involved to even submit a home study. There's more work involved in preparing that profile book and waiting for someone to choose you. Then there's the work of raising a child! No one does this as a social media tool.

She wants another child. She probably can't have any more herself. So she's adopting. I do think she should stay off social media, but I doubt she went through all this as a "tool." There's a lot of emotion involved when you adopt a child (I've done it myself, so I know). I imagine she's just seeking support from friends to help her on her journey. There are better ways, though.

It can be both -- a heartfelt desire and a media tool.

[usmcmom]

22 minutes ago, Jackie3 said:

I don't like Alyssa or Lori, but come on. There's a huge amount of work involved to even submit a home study. There's more work involved in preparing that profile book and waiting for someone to choose you. Then there's the work of raising a child! No one does this as a social media tool.

She wants another child. She probably can't have any more herself. So she's adopting. I do think she should stay off social media, but I doubt she went through all this as a "tool." There's a lot of emotion involved when you adopt a child (I've done it myself, so I know). I imagine she's just seeking support from friends to help her on her journey. There are better ways, though.

I see your point. Perhaps I am being too harsh. 
 

She has just often talked about it as her lifelong dream. She responded to a comment once that this wasn’t about “having another kid” but fulfilling a dream. She also made it clear, early on, that they wanted a brother for Gideon. She seemed to have a very precise vision for this second child. The fact that they now have a daughter does make me think that she, thankfully, has allowed that vision to be altered.  
 

Her carefully curated photos and videos for social media just give me an uncomfortable vibe. 

[Jackie3]

42 minutes ago, usmcmom said:

Her carefully curated photos and videos for social media just give me an uncomfortable vibe. 

Oh, I agree that she seems really into herself and loves to post glamorous pics of herself. It's a bit much. However, that doesn't mean she'll be a bad mother or that her intentions for adopting are bad. 

If she was adopting to "save a baby" she'd be understandably criticized. If she is adopting for selfish reasons, that's also bad. It's interesting how biological parents' motives for reproducing aren't scrutinized in the same way.

[feministxtian]

Lori done pissed me off again. Yeah, honor guard and dress uniforms looks pretty, but that ain't the reality. Also, at no time, that I know of has the military been all white. AFAIK, there were non-white soldiers in the Continental Army. 

She's such a fucking bogus, bigoted, racist bitch. I'd love to see her expression when I take off the "nice, white girl" mask and show the "rowdy Latina" who speaks Spanish. She'd shit her pants. 

Speaking of, at church I got myself REALLY confused! I was in a conversation that was in English, Spanglish and Spanish. I ended up so confused I ended up speaking the wrong language to the wrong person. Then it was suggested I should learn Swahili and French to be able to communicate better with the folks from Nigeria. Ummm...my head would explode. 

I fucking hate that word that I don't like to use referring to women. 

[KDA]

4 hours ago, Jackie3 said:

Let's not infantilize Anna. She doesn't need to "be given" a chance to leave. She needs to put on her big girl pants and find an opportunity. Nothing is stopping her from calling a shelter today and leaving all of this.

Says someone who clearly doesn't know what it's like to live in a hellish, abusive marriage. Or how incredibly hard it is to leave.

The first step in leaving, is recognising the abuse. Recognising it was damn near impossible for me, and I was raised fairly normally, and I had people pointing it out and supporting me. Truthfully, I didn't even fully recognise the abuse until I was at the police station to report my husband trying to strangle me (and I only went because my teenage son made me go, after he smashed a bottle on the back of my husbands head to make him let go of me) and read a pamphlet on domestic violence. Until then, I was so used to the constant belittling, the insults, the threats, the mild violence etc that I didn't think anything of it. At the back of my mind, I knew it wasn't a healthy way to live, but I just pushed it away. It wears you down and breaks you so much, and there's so much shame. Taking the first step in leaving took more courage than I had. When you're made to feel worthless, you actually believe that you are.

Anna was raised in a church that teaches that suffering is good and holy and wives have to submit to their husbands, no matter what.  Just the crap I see on Lori's blog tells me that Anna will have been told to "submit more" - because that's what Lori told me, years ago. She will have been told that it's her fault Josh cheated on her, because she didn't give him enough sex. Or something like that.

This is not about infantilizing anyone, it's about recognising the very real challenges she would have faced.

[Jackie3]

58 minutes ago, KDA said:

Says someone who clearly doesn't know what it's like to live in a hellish, abusive marriage. Or how incredibly hard it is to leave.

 

Oh, I know plenty about it. I lived it. I grew up with a hellish, abusive father. I watched my mother being abused every day. I watched her decide to stay, and decide to stay, for years and years. . . . until her children's childhoods were destroyed.

When my mother DID leave, it wasn't because someone allowed her to. It was because she had had enough.

My mother had free will and so does Anna. I would never infantilize either one of them, to imply they are helpless to leave. THE CHILDREN  are the ones who are helpless to leave. Anna can book a hotel room today. Mackynie/Michael/Madyson cannot. 

You are also making stuff up. Josh is a pedophile and a cheater, but there's no indication he's abusive to Anna.

 

 

[ManyGoats]

7 hours ago, usmcmom said:

I also keep remembering how Lori once said single mothers should give their kids to godly families.

So when my dad died, when I was 7 and my brothers were 4, my mom should have given us to someone else? Lori can't see past her own nose. 

Edited December 13, 2021 by ManyGoats

[KDA]

1 hour ago, Jackie3 said:

 

You are also making stuff up. Josh is a pedophile and a cheater, but there's no indication he's abusive to Anna.

 

 

Which would make it even harder for her to leave. If he's NOT abusing her, what are her grounds for divorce, as far as ultra-fundamentalist churches go? Why on earth would she be leaving a man who treats her well?

I mean, cheating is a form of abuse, as is looking at kiddy-porn. So I believe she was likely abused, too. But if you say there's no evidence, then we'll go with that. WHY would she want to leave, if there was no abuse? If he was treating her well and was a good husband, why would she leave? That makes no sense whatsoever. I've read plenty of things (mostly on FB) that show she was emotionally abused, though. And that's even harder to recognise than physical abuse.

As far as I am aware, there is no evidence that Josh molested his own children. I could be wrong on that, but I haven't seen anything that suggests he molested his children. The last thing I read said that he was allowed supervised visits with them. If he had been molesting them, that wouldn't have been allowed. Well it wouldn't have been allowed here in NZ, anyway. 

[HoneyBunny]

LazyLori has now published a blog post about her shingles episode. Thank God some non-medical blogger recommended some woo homeopathic supplements which LazyLori started to take (because if they’re homeopathic, they’re completely safe, but if the CDC approves them, they’re not). She’s also taking L-lysine which has not been proven to do a thing against shingles but can cause lots of stomach distress. 
 

Honestly, this woman is her own worst enemy. 

[SongRed7]

On 12/11/2021 at 8:36 PM, usmcmom said:

Alyssa has posted on Instagram that they have adopted a baby girl, born Decmember eighth. No name or other details. 

Have been heartened to find out Alyssa "wised" up and has been deciding not to overshare so much online, especially after the first failed adoption.  They truly look happy.   And you know Lori will NOW become an adoption expert based on her daughter's one experience along with everything else she is an expert on.

I took a Lori break over the weekend to enjoy holiday stuff, shopping, etc... I come back to see her posted on "the size of a man's anatomy"  What the ever living...what the what??!!   Her outrage over certain random topics is amazing, but this one takes the cake. I wonder what triggered her??

12 hours ago, KDA said:

As far as I am aware, there is no evidence that Josh molested his own children. I could be wrong on that, but I haven't seen anything that suggests he molested his children. The last thing I read said that he was allowed supervised visits with them. If he had been molesting them, that wouldn't have been allowed

That remains to be seen. Apparently there are records that Josh and Anna disallowed a forensic exam (this is not a physical exam) when Josh was first arrested. Now that he's been convicted, the courts my require interviews/exams (again, not physical, just interviewing the kids to see if there is any suspected abuse)...so at this point, it is impossible to rule in/rule out abuse of his own children. 

[SongRed7]

20 hours ago, older than allosaurs said:

First and foremost: shut up about it on social media. This is actually the child's journey and the child's story to tell, later, if they choose to. Adoptive parents should find their own private places to go on about our experiences and our feelings.

The more we publicly center ourselves as parents, the harder it is to keep in mind that our kids didn't audition for this Hallmark movie -- they had no choice and no voice in the role they are playing. 

I am an adult adopted, adopted at 3 days old.  I won't go into the details of my whole story, but you are 100% correct.  I do believe Alyssa wanted another child and we know she had trouble getting pregnant the first time and is reaching what is medically referred to as "an advanced maternal age"...I think she's 38 or something like that. So adoption is a viable option. 

But I'm glad she backed on the oversharing somewhat...you are right...it's NOT a Hallmark movie and that child deserves privacy

 

[Red Hair, Black Dress]

Lori's aunt, who is at least 20 years older than Lori, had shingles.  Since the chicken pox vaccine hadn't been invented then, contrary to Lazy Lori's statement, Auntie didn't get shingles from the vaccine. I doubt that Lori was vaccinated.  Both of them probably had chicken pox.

But -- Auntie and Lori both "cured" their shingles with woo so of course woo is the way to go. Lori says she'll be using the woo from now on as a preventative measure. Woo Woo for Lori.

Lori is an idiot. Shingles is nothing to fool around with.  A friend of mine (too old for chicken pox vaccine), had chicken pox as a child and then got shingles a few years ago. On his face around an eye and down one cheek. It look forever to heal.

I'm not wishing residual nerve pain on Lori, but I won't cry if she has it.

Lori needs to shut up praising her grandmother who believed doctors. drugs, and demons were all the same and never ever never took any of her 7 children to the doctor. And they were all health as horses. The lady got lucky none of them broke a bone, contracted polio, diphtheria, mastoiditis, smallpox, pneumonia, etc. etc.  or anything else that needs a doctor or drugs. Of course we only know what Lori tells us. The truth could be something else.

 

[Loveday]

What strikes me immediately about Lori's experience with shingles is that she doesn't seem to have even gotten an official diagnosis of shingles. How does she know for a fact that it IS shingles? Is she just guessing? Did her brother in law the doctor look at it for her and say, yes, that's shingles? If so, why would she believe HIM and not have confidence in any other doctor? 

So, without an official diagnosis, she's gone online and looked for every woo treatment she can possibly find to throw at herself. She's going to have no way of knowing which treatment--the L-lysine capsules? the calendula cream? the Shingles Nosode, whatever the hell that is?--actually worked. If, that is, any of it really worked. 🙄

 

[KDA]

5 hours ago, SongRed7 said:

That remains to be seen. Apparently there are records that Josh and Anna disallowed a forensic exam (this is not a physical exam) when Josh was first arrested. Now that he's been convicted, the courts my require interviews/exams (again, not physical, just interviewing the kids to see if there is any suspected abuse)...so at this point, it is impossible to rule in/rule out abuse of his own children. 

That man disgusts me more and more. 

I sincerely hope Anna takes this chance to make a fresh start with her children and that the children, particularly, can find healing. And Anna can find the space to be able to breathe again.