Erin & Chad 8: Hasbro Paine, Cleveland Paine, Labour Paine

[Jackie3]

We really let our children down when we can't admit that there are some bad teachers out there. Denial like that hurts the kids more than anyone else. My kids have had many great teachers and some really terrible ones. I would always listen and intervene when they had terrible one. I never insisted that all teachers were good. That would be trying to silence them.

Silencing is something that fundies do to their kids when their kids question a narrative.

[SassyPants]

39 minutes ago, Jackie3 said:

We really let our children down when we can't admit that there are some bad teachers out there. Denial like that hurts the kids more than anyone else. My kids have had many great teachers and some really terrible ones. I would always listen and intervene when they had terrible one. I never insisted that all teachers were good. That would be trying to silence them.

Silencing is something that fundies do to their kids when their kids question a narrative.

Boy I wish fundies could understand and accept this. No, not every fundie mother is equipped to or capable of being a good or even plausible teacher to 1 child, let alone a dozen.  I’d use Alyssa Webster as a prime example. She thinks because she has supplied matching white  desks and cheap computers she is doing an exceptional job. Forget the fact that she doesn’t know the cardinal directions or how to spell medieval or dining. 

[GuineaPigCourtship]

There are excellent teachers and terrible teachers, and most probably fall somewhere in between.  The benefit to having training in teaching for these women in the cult would be that 1. they do not all seem to have received a stellar foundation education, and 2. they are teaching a plethora of kids who may have different learning styles.  Having guidance in teaching instead of muddling through would probably help them to reach their kids as individuals and allow them to pass on knowledge more successfully.  Having a degree is not the only way to be good at something and certainly isn't a guarantee that someone WILL be good at something, but formal training is a way to fill in the gaps.

[SassyPants]

13 minutes ago, GuineaPigCourtship said:

There are excellent teachers and terrible teachers, and most probably fall somewhere in between.  The benefit to having training in teaching for these women in the cult would be that 1. they do not all seem to have received a stellar foundation education, and 2. they are teaching a plethora of kids who may have different learning styles.  Having guidance in teaching instead of muddling through would probably help them to reach their kids as individuals and allow them to pass on knowledge more successfully.  Having a degree is not the only way to be good at something and certainly isn't a guarantee that someone WILL be good at something, but formal training is a way to fill in the gaps.

Plus I absolutely think a credentialed/educated teacher would more readily be able to spot a problem and to have the resources needed to get a student help- 

[SamanthasMom]

As a group, these families do not value education which is why they minimally allocate time and resources to it. I honestly have always thought homeschooling was more about the logistics of getting these mega-families out the door than teaching or avoiding any specific curriculum.

[Bluebirdbluebell]

I don't think college is necessary for everyone. I think trade schools can be a great move. I think community colleges and certificate programs are a great move. I think getting job after high school and figuring things out can be a great move. 

When it comes to fundies:

1) A lot of these kids don't seem to have a education equal to a high school education. 

2)A lot of the girls are pushed into marriage and motherhood before they're ready and have had time to study their options. 

3) A lot of the boys (and sometimes the girls) learn skills, but don't have the certification to use those skills.

4) Higher education of any kind is usually discouraged including trade schools and community college. The kids aren't given the opportunities to figure out things for themselves. Not everyone necessarily needs college, but some people should be able to pursue college as an option. 

When it comes to the Bates, I think it's stupid that the kids go to an unaccredited college. Most of the kids that are doing fine are the girls who married well. I think all adults should have a variety of opportunities and that young women should have choices other than live at home or become a housewife. 

[Guanabana]

19 hours ago, SassyPants said:

Boy I wish fundies could understand and accept this. No, not every fundie mother is equipped to or capable of being a good or even plausible teacher to 1 child, let alone a dozen.  I’d use Alyssa Webster as a prime example. She thinks because she has supplied matching white  desks and cheap computers she is doing an exceptional job. Forget the fact that she doesn’t know the cardinal directions or how to spell medieval or dining. 

Alyssa has a video on YouTube where she says she started homeschooling early this year, and the girls will be done the first week of May. Alyssa said she couldn’t wait for school to be over. She then hyped the girls asking who was ready to be done with school. Since Alyssa parks the girls in front of DVD player I wonder why she is so tired of not teaching. The girls will be less educated than their mother. That is truly sad. 

[SassyPants]

21 minutes ago, Guanabana said:

Alyssa has a video on YouTube where she says she started homeschooling early this year, and the girls will be done the first week of May. Alyssa said she couldn’t wait for school to be over. She then hyped the girls asking who was ready to be done with school. Since Alyssa parks the girls in front of DVD player I wonder why she is so tired of not teaching. The girls will be less educated than their mother. That is truly sad. 

They also participate in co-op which requires getting out of the house. If she thinks it’s bad now, she’ll never make it through HS. Maybe GM W. Will help out with the schooling. 

[Jackie3]

17 hours ago, SamanthasMom said:

As a group, these families do not value education which is why they minimally allocate time and resources to it. I honestly have always thought homeschooling was more about the logistics of getting these mega-families out the door than teaching or avoiding any specific curriculum.

I agree! It can be a lot of work having a kids in school. Getting them up and dressed and fed and out the door on time. Catching the bus. Picking them up (or meeting the bus) at the end of the day. You have to have forms signed, vaccinations given, homework done, clean clothes. Then there's the extra stuff you need to send in. . . costumes for the school play, snacks, school supplies, a packed lunch every day. There's also lots of events parents are supposed to attend in the early years of school--plays and concerts and things like that.  If you have a bunch of kids in school, the work is multiplied accordingly--how can a pregnant fundie mom with several toddlers manage all of that?

And there's also the knowledge that someone (generally a teacher) knows if you fall short. So you feel judged (even if no judging is going on). 

In high school, there is less work for the mom. . . but also a lot less control. What happens when you send your 14-year old on a band field trip overnight? Can you trust your daughter? The teacher in charge? 

Also, you have to tolerate things you don't necessarily approve of. Teachers used to give my kids candy as a reward for learning. That's Ok with me, but some fundies are rabidly anti-sugar.  Kids swap food at lunch, even when its not allowed. Shielding your kids from the internet becomes impossible when other kids have tablets. 

Yes, fundie homeschooling is more about protecting parents. Homeschooling allows them avoid scrutiny and judgment, set their own (low) standards, decide to be "relaxed' about higher level subjects and maintain an ironclad control of their kids.

Edited April 16, 2022 by Jackie3

[GuineaPigCourtship]

It also saves them from having to answer hard questions if their kids learn facts that aren't in line with the biblical teachings they've selected to follow.  Those dratted dinosaurs, always testing our faith!

[SassyPants]

Of the fundies we most commonly discuss, the only person who seemed to have a decent homeschool education was AnnaMarie Maxwell. The rest just seemed to receive the minimum around babies, diapers, laundry, cleaning and open and dump cooking. For most, at best, a basic 4-5th grade education. Criminal is what that is.

[JermajestyDuggar]

16 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Of the fundies we most commonly discuss, the only person who seemed to have a decent homeschool education was AnnaMarie Maxwell. The rest just seemed to receive the minimum around babies, diapers, laundry, cleaning and open and dump cooking. For most, at best, a basic 4-5th grade education. Criminal is what that is.

I don’t like Jenny Flanders but at least she educates her children. Too bad more of these kids aren’t educated like Jenny’s. 

[Melissa1977]

5 hours ago, SassyPants said:

Of the fundies we most commonly discuss, the only person who seemed to have a decent homeschool education was AnnaMarie Maxwell. The rest just seemed to receive the minimum around babies, diapers, laundry, cleaning and open and dump cooking. For most, at best, a basic 4-5th grade education. Criminal is what that is.

They were only 4 siblings (#5 was adopted when the kids were teens). It's very different homeschooling 8 or 10 or 15 while being pregnant non stop.

5 hours ago, GuineaPigCourtship said:

It also saves them from having to answer hard questions if their kids learn facts that aren't in line with the biblical teachings they've selected to follow.  Those dratted dinosaurs, always testing our faith!

Many fundies beat their kids and some even brag about it. So homeschooling also saves them from having to answer hard questions about that.

[Jackie3]

On 4/15/2022 at 6:13 PM, GuineaPigCourtship said:

Having a degree is not the only way to be good at something and certainly isn't a guarantee that someone WILL be good at something, but formal training is a way to fill in the gaps.

You don't need any formal training to become a teacher. If you have it, that's great, but you don't need it any longer. You just need a BA. Teachers aren't spending years in child development classes.

Most states have alternative programs that allow anyone with a BA to teach. There's lots of other options that will qualify you for a certification (like going to the Peace Corps)

 

Edited April 17, 2022 by Jackie3

[GreenBeans]

On 4/15/2022 at 7:02 PM, SassyPants said:

Boy I wish fundies could understand and accept this. No, not every fundie mother is equipped to or capable of being a good or even plausible teacher to 1 child, let alone a dozen.

There’s a reason that being a teacher generally requires several years of academic studies, and after all these years you are qualified to teach 2-3 subjects, at most (at least where I live - Germany). Elementary school teachers may teach a broader range of subjects, but would still need to have an academic degree.

There’s a reason we don’t just hire moms/dads as teachers, because no matter how much effort they put in, they just aren’t qualified (I know, not a popular stance here on FJ, but I guess that has to do with different cultural backgrounds).

There may be parents with a natural talent for teaching, but they still are not qualified. Just like there are people with a natural talent for medicine or law - people would be outraged, and rightfully so, if they were told “your surgeon did not go to medical school, but he has read a lot about how to remove an appendix and put in lots of effort to plan this surgery. If necessary, there are other untrained doctors (equally motivated!) who will be happy to assist.”

Why is children’s education valued so little that people think anyone can do it?

Edited April 17, 2022 by GreenBeans
Riffles

[Ali]

On 4/14/2022 at 6:42 PM, JermajestyDuggar said:

But jr high and high school kids can do online school a little better.

They can, but most won't. I teach high school math and it has been quite frustrating to see so many just stop doing anything once they go online. I have also seen social skills suffer. Some of my kids in my online class won't even talk anymore. They will only send me private chat messages.

I have also witnessed many home conditions that were not healthy for learning. Many high schoolers were expected to watch their younger siblings.

One of my students was trying to take a test while a kindergarten relative was sitting right next to her. She was dancing, singing, and bouncing on the couch. I felt so bad for my student. There was an adult in the background too. The student communicated that her aunt expected her to watch the kid. I tried to get her to retake the test and let me know when there was a time she could focus better. She never took me up on the offer.

5 hours ago, Jackie3 said:

You don't need any formal training to become a teacher. If you have it, that's great, but you don't need it any longer. You just need a BA. Teachers aren't spending years in child development classes.

Most states have alternative programs that allow anyone with a BA to teach. There's lots of other options that will qualify you for a certification (like going to the Peace Corps)

 

I have not figured out if you hate teachers or if you are a troll.

My school has given people from these alternative programs a chance and they have failed miserably. There is a lot of components to teaching and most people from these programs are not prepared.

[JermajestyDuggar]

17 minutes ago, Ali said:

They can, but most won't. I teach high school math and it has been quite frustrating to see so many just stop doing anything once they go online. I have also seen social skills suffer. Some of my kids in my online class won't even talk anymore. They will only send me private chat messages.

I have also witnessed many home conditions that were not healthy for learning. Many high schoolers were expected to watch their younger siblings.

One of my students was trying to take a test while a kindergarten relative was sitting right next to her. She was dancing, singing, and bouncing on the couch. I felt so bad for my student. There was an adult in the background too. The student communicated that her aunt expected her to watch the kid. I tried to get her to retake the test and let me know when there was a time she could focus better. She never took me up on the offer.

I have not figured out if you hate teachers or if you are a troll.

My school has given people from these alternative programs a chance and they have failed miserably. There is a lot of components to teaching and most people from these programs are not prepared.

True but I am talking about a very different type of homeschooling situation. The kids you are dealing with were used to going to school every day and suddenly they had to go remote and it’s completely different and new for them. Many don’t have a parent around to make sure they do their work. In fundie families, the mom is supposed to be there making sure they do their assignments. Along with the fact that they are used to being home and schooling. It’s all they’ve ever known. I don’t think the two situations would be comparable. 

[SassyPants]

I’m trying to imagine a homeschool world where HS aged Bateses or Duggars were given the needed time, space and atmosphere to adequately learn anything to competency. I.am.just.not.seeing.it.

4-5th grade education, at best, for almost all of them!

[JermajestyDuggar]

17 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

I’m trying to imagine a homeschool world where HS aged Bateses or Duggars were given the needed time, space and atmosphere to adequately learn anything to competency. I.am.just.not.seeing.it.

4-5th grade education, at best, for almost all of them!

They definitely didn’t since there were 19. But the smaller fundie families could make it work. I just think some didn’t bother much. 

[SassyPants]

57 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

They definitely didn’t since there were 19. But the smaller fundie families could make it work. I just think some didn’t bother much. 

19 and no time or 9 and willfully denying a true education and associated opportunities…outcomes are the same.

Terrible parenting. Terrible for kids and society. Which is why Jill Dillard’s transformation, especially with regards to her boys, is fantastic and to be applauded, beliefs aside-

[SassyPants]

3 hours ago, Ali said:

They can, but most won't. I teach high school math and it has been quite frustrating to see so many just stop doing anything once they go online. I have also seen social skills suffer. Some of my kids in my online class won't even talk anymore. They will only send me private chat messages.

I have also witnessed many home conditions that were not healthy for learning. Many high schoolers were expected to watch their younger siblings.

One of my students was trying to take a test while a kindergarten relative was sitting right next to her. She was dancing, singing, and bouncing on the couch. I felt so bad for my student. There was an adult in the background too. The student communicated that her aunt expected her to watch the kid. I tried to get her to retake the test and let me know when there was a time she could focus better. She never took me up on the offer.

I have not figured out if you hate teachers or if you are a troll.

My school has given people from these alternative programs a chance and they have failed miserably. There is a lot of components to teaching and most people from these programs are not prepared.

Agreed. This poster keeps moving the goal post to try to validate an opinion about credentialed teachers. As if Jessa Seewald or Alyssa Webster has the education and life experiences of someone serving in the Peace Corps 😗And there are many types of teaching roles that do not happen In a classroom. I mentored many new nurses while working in the NICU. It was a 16 week orientation program were new nurses worked 1:1 with a seasoned nurse. Now I was not a credentialed teacher but I was educated and experienced in the subject matter being taught.

Aside from diapers, I’m not sure what else they were really taught to do to competency. Jana has picked up some skills as an adult, but I’m not sure she is teaching anyone. 

[anjulibai]

You absolutely need to learn how to teach. There's a lot about it that most people don't consider until they have been shown. 

My bachelor's is in astronomy and mathematics. Before I started my master's in secondary education, I thought I had a good idea about how to teach. Yeah, no, I had a lot to learn. 

Teaching is an art form, most certainly, and you need a spark to do it (one I don't personally have). But at the same time, to effectively use that spark, you need a wide knowledge base of how humans learn and all the different issues facing educating diverse learners (both in terms of learning styles, abilities and backgrounds). 

[Mrs Ms]

9 hours ago, Ali said:

They can, but most won't. I teach high school math and it has been quite frustrating to see so many just stop doing anything once they go online. I have also seen social skills suffer. Some of my kids in my online class won't even talk anymore. They will only send me private chat messages.

I have also witnessed many home conditions that were not healthy for learning. Many high schoolers were expected to watch their younger siblings.

One of my students was trying to take a test while a kindergarten relative was sitting right next to her. She was dancing, singing, and bouncing on the couch. I felt so bad for my student. There was an adult in the background too. The student communicated that her aunt expected her to watch the kid. I tried to get her to retake the test and let me know when there was a time she could focus better. She never took me up on the offer.

I have not figured out if you hate teachers or if you are a troll.

My school has given people from these alternative programs a chance and they have failed miserably. There is a lot of components to teaching and most people from these programs are not prepared.

Troll. Most definitely a troll! I am amazed how many people engage with this poster. And that the poster isn’t at least in the prayer closet, if not banned. 

[byzant]

I  think the issue is someone( Jackie3)  can be a delusional asshole who thinks their fan theories are fact but also no one else is entitled to have fan theories  and also is super aggressive about other folk drawing different conclusions for the same evidence without breaking any rules- a delusional and unpleasant dickhead but not bannable- I highly recommend the block feature 

[Mrs Ms]

41 minutes ago, byzant said:

I  think the issue is someone( Jackie3)  can be a delusional asshole who thinks their fan theories are fact but also no one else is entitled to have fan theories  and also is super aggressive about other folk drawing different conclusions for the same evidence without breaking any rules- a delusional and unpleasant dickhead but not bannable- I highly recommend the block feature 

I see it as more than that. They post 90% or even more posts that a straight up shit-stirring. With juuuuust enough non-confrontational stuff sprinkled in not to ping everyone’s troll radar. 

Posters that just annoy me I ignore, but this poster is toxic, so while I won’t engage with them at all, don’t want to ignore so I can counter some of the utter bullshit other posters are suddenly trying to defend themselves from. Wilfully misconstruing stuff and accusing posters of saying some seriously nasty stuff is trolling to me. Some of our posters are non native speakers and some are neurodivergent which can lead to misunderstandings, but this one has been trolling since at least November last year.