Remnant Fellowship 18: The Irony of the Possibly Overweight Plane

[WeirdHarold]

More on Joe's pilot quals, plus other commentary.

Spoiler

 

 

[MamaJunebug]

On 6/29/2021 at 11:27 AM, AmazonGrace said:

Different thread, different prophet, different fashion statement.

The day camp photos are from a world without Covid. No masks no distance no sense.  

Honest question (not snarky) (seriously):

What does this hand-in-the-air pose signify? 
 

It isn’t, and never has been, part of the Christian tradition in which I was raised. Closest thing we have to it is when the pastor raises one or both hands in blessing toward the congregation.  That's at the benediction (blessing) as the end of the service. 
 

What’s it mean in RF (asking former RF people), and what does it mean in other churches of your experience?

Sincere thanks for any insights!

[Antipatriarch]

18 minutes ago, MamaJunebug said:

What does this hand-in-the-air pose signify?

At the church I last attended, it was an outward display of seeking connectedness to God. Almost always it was during worship or prayer, and the person's eyes would be closed. It's like reaching out and saying "touch me, God!" It was a very emotional thing. I can't tell from this picture if it's the same, but our worship leaders did it too, so it could be.

On the other hand, in the northern Baptist churches I attended earlier in my life, they would never do something so "showy"--it was seen as too charismatic. Any emotion you felt was kept internal and you didn't clap or sway or raise your hands. (And those pastors would raise their hand(s) when giving the benediction.)

[cat_named_pants]

AA

Are they singing to their new leader?

[Bluebirdbluebell]

One of the biggest differences I notice in the Elizabeth picture is the lighting seems different. She has a warm glow in that photo. Usually she's so pale she looks a little blue.

[AmazonGrace]

I guess I can't complain that Gwen writes no new devos anymore.

If you eat you are just one in a billion (fact check: one in 7.8 billion actually) but if you join Gwen's starvation cult you will be super special.

Encouragingly, she reminds us that even in dire straits our ship can turn around....

Spoiler

...and potentially get stuck in the channel

 

[RFfamANON]

10 hours ago, MamaJunebug said:

Honest question (not snarky) (seriously):

What does this hand-in-the-air pose signify? 
 

It isn’t, and never has been, part of the Christian tradition in which I was raised. Closest thing we have to it is when the pastor raises one or both hands in blessing toward the congregation.  That's at the benediction (blessing) as the end of the service. 
 

What’s it mean in RF (asking former RF people), and what does it mean in other churches of your experience?

Sincere thanks for any insights!

In my “normal” Christian experience it is a worshipful pose when praying or more often when singing. 
 

The pose that bothers me the most with RF is the pointing upward with one finger ☝️It’s like a humble brag to me like “yes yes I am awesome but I’m gonna have to give the big guy some credit.” I don’t know why I find it so offensive. I am sure that most of the RFers are sincere as they point toward God telling everyone that He is the reason for all of their blessings. It just irks me for some reason. 

[quiversR4hunting]

14 hours ago, RFFriend said:

I read this thread and I have some experience with divorce/custody issues and family court.  These DCF reports are par for the course in custody battles and I have learned that it can be one or both causing the problem.  I don't read from this that Joe was  definitely the bad guy.  Could be either or both.  One thing I saw was the ex was showing up at his house and recording he and his mother all because she needed a remote.  That doesn't sound like someone who was afraid for her life from her ex.

It is not uncommon for one party to genuinely think that the other party is molesting the child.  It is also not uncommon for one party to be abusing the child.  Most of the reports are marked as "unfounded."  I am part of a group on Facebook and all the time I see kids getting killed by parents who the other parent tried to warn the system about.  The reports are marked as unfounded and later the child winds up dead.  I'm not defending Joe because I didn't know him and he could have been a bad guy.  I don't have enough information to make that call.

So, I take all of this with a grain of salt and unless I know the people and situation more intimately,  I can't really know what is truly happening by these reports.  One thing I do see a lot of is that the DCF workers pick a side and the reports are biased.  I knew one woman that was being abused by her ex and the DCF reports painted her as the problem and the abuser as the victim.  They get it wrong a lot.  Sometimes the abusers are the charming ones and the victims come across as agitated and hypervigilant.  In fact, most divorce attorneys will tell you not to say you think the other parent is abusing the child as it will blow up in your face.  

So, just my two cents...

I am not sure your connection with family court. I have been working in child support for nearly 20 years. Accusations of abuse and molestation is very uncommon. Most divorce/separation/custody issues are pretty standard with common mistrust with the other party and issues with communication but accusations of abuse are not common. 

IIRC the police report with Natasha recording states her, joe and child live in the main house and Joe's mom lived in the guest house. And if Joe & his mom were already accusing her of stuff, I am not surprised that she started recording because it is the only way to show what actually happened. 

I also don't think DCH get it wrong a lot. I know their hands are tied by a lot of red tape and BS. Are there bad DCH workers, yup but, in my professional experience, it isn't common. 

12 hours ago, Queen Of Hearts said:

Nah. Joe married Gwen, joined a cult, and did a bunch of shady stuff during the custody battles once he was married. I see absolutely no reason to doubt the mom and to believe Joe had to have had a screw loose at best and was just a shitty human at worst. When there is smoke there is usually fire.

100% agree. not many people file multiple police reports in a short period of time against their ex. 

[nelliebelle1197]

25 minutes ago, quiversR4hunting said:

I am not sure your connection with family court. I have been working in child support for nearly 20 years. Accusations of abuse and molestation is very uncommon. Most divorce/separation/custody issues are pretty standard with common mistrust with the other party and issues with communication but accusations of abuse are not common. 

IIRC the police report with Natasha recording states her, joe and child live in the main house and Joe's mom lived in the guest house. And if Joe & his mom were already accusing her of stuff, I am not surprised that she started recording because it is the only way to show what actually happened. 

I also don't think DCH get it wrong a lot. I know their hands are tied by a lot of red tape and BS. Are there bad DCH workers, yup but, in my professional experience, it isn't common. 

100% agree. not many people file multiple police reports in a short period of time against their ex. 

Agreed. We have literally hundreds of DV divorces and custody mods every year and very few abuse cases-and the one or two we get are serious and legitimate. All of our family law cases have domestic violence and none of them have unfounded accusations. In fact the abuser is more likely to call the cops as manipulation tactic.  If Joe was calling the cops on his ex all the time, yet she retained custody and no charges were filed, I would look more at Joe attempting to use the cops as intimidation.

[ManyGoats]

3 hours ago, RFfamANON said:

I don’t know why I find it so offensive.

I don't find it offensive but it does annoy the crap out of me. Here's why -- that particular pose is unique to Remnant Fellowship (smug superiority) and when on stage, they use it so uniformly (cult-like and reminds me of the 'Heil Hitler' salute). I'm not comparing them to Hitler; the pose just looks similar so it's distasteful.

[quiversR4hunting]

16 minutes ago, ManyGoats said:

I don't find it offensive but it does annoy the crap out of me. Here's why -- that particular pose is unique to Remnant Fellowship (smug superiority) and when on stage, they use it so uniformly (cult-like and reminds me of the 'Heil Hitler' salute). I'm not comparing them to Hitler; the pose just looks similar so it's distasteful.

YES! Thank you! It is the smug superiority and waspy, rich, elite attitude which makes it so disingenuous on how they worship God Gwen. 

[Blue]

25 minutes ago, ManyGoats said:

I don't find it offensive but it does annoy the crap out of me. Here's why -- that particular pose is unique to Remnant Fellowship (smug superiority) and when on stage, they use it so uniformly (cult-like and reminds me of the 'Heil Hitler' salute). I'm not comparing them to Hitler; the pose just looks similar so it's distasteful.

I feel the same. Raising hands in worship is pretty common where I live, so that in itself is totally normal to me... But in RF I feel like it becomes it's own litmus test. I don't typically raise my hands in worship, and I know nobody at our church is ever looking down on me/questioning my faith/feeling better then me because of it.

I'm RF it's robotic, doesn't feel genuine (really... Everybody feels called to raise their hands in the exact same way at the exact same time? ?), and is definitely used as proof that they worship God better than others. We had a family member literally use that as one of the reasons they feel they're in a group that is 100% devoted to God.

[SayonaraLara]

Been keeping an eye on the Williamson County Online Court Record System for filings. Some expected and maybe unexpected filings.

Expected: 

Ashton Martin Jost, oldest child of David and Jennifer Martin, has filed for custody of her younger brothers, Aiden and Aaron. She also has filed as petitioner for her parents’ estate(s).

Unexpected:

Filing for custody of Jessica and Jonathan Walters’ three children are longtime Remnant leaders Patrick and Amy Stites. Jessica’s mother, Sandra, is  listed as an interested party.

The Walters’ estate(s) are perhaps more interesting. Jan Ruble —  a longtime Remnant member — is listed as Jonathan’s petitioner. But there are TWO filings for the estate of Jessica. On one (Jessica Renee Walters), Jan Ruble is petitioner and mother Sandra Solomon is an interested party. BUT, on the other (Jessica Solomon Walters), her father Malcolm Solomon is listed as petitioner. Guessing her parents aren’t together?

Nonexistent:

Any filings for the estate of Gwen Shamblin and/or Lara or William and/or Joe Lara. Any filings for Liana Lara (Joe’s daughter) or the Hannahs, but they still have surviving parents.

Also somewhat interesting: Russ Morgan, Remnant’s usual counsel, isn’t the attorney on any of these.

 

 

Edited July 1, 2021 by SayonaraLara

[Queen Of Hearts]

What is the difference between a petitioner and an interested party?

[CrazyCatLady]

The petitioner is the one asking the court for something. An interested party is usually anyone else who may have claim to what you're asking for.

I usually see it in DCS/custody cases where grandparents are listed as interested parties. Hopefully that makes sense!

[JermajestyDuggar]

3 hours ago, SayonaraLara said:

Been keeping an eye on the Williamson County Online Court Record System for filings. Some expected and maybe unexpected filings.

Expected: 

Ashton Martin Jost, oldest child of David and Jennifer Martin, has filed for custody of her younger brothers, Aiden and Aaron. She also has filed as petitioner for her parents’ estate(s).

Unexpected:

Filing for custody of Jessica and Jonathan Walters’ three children are longtime Remnant leaders Patrick and Amy Stites. Jessica’s mother, Sandra, is  listed as an interested party.

The Walters’ estate(s) are perhaps more interesting. Jan Ruble —  a longtime Remnant member — is listed as Jonathan’s petitioner. But there are TWO filings for the estate of Jessica. On one (Jessica Renee Walters), Jan Ruble is petitioner and mother Sandra Solomon is an interested party. BUT, on the other (Jessica Solomon Walters), her father Malcolm Solomon is listed as petitioner. Guessing her parents aren’t together?

Nonexistent:

Any filings for the estate of Gwen Shamblin and/or Lara or William and/or Joe Lara. Any filings for Liana Lara (Joe’s daughter) or the Hannahs, but they still have surviving parents.

Also somewhat interesting: Russ Morgan, Remnant’s usual counsel, isn’t the attorney on any of these.

 

 

I figured the Martins’ second youngest son was a legal adult since he just graduated high school. But he could still be 17. I graduated at 17 and so did my husband. So I’m guessing he’s 17.

[Queen Of Hearts]

2 hours ago, CrazyCatLady said:

The petitioner is the one asking the court for something. An interested party is usually anyone else who may have claim to what you're asking for.

I usually see it in DCS/custody cases where grandparents are listed as interested parties. Hopefully that makes sense!


 

Oh gosh, that just makes me sick that someone from the cult has petitioned for custody of those kids over their grandparents.

[Blue]

13 minutes ago, Queen Of Hearts said:

Oh gosh, that just makes me sick that someone from the cult has petitioned for custody of those kids over their grandparents.

I agree, but somehow the fact that it's the Stites doesn't surprise me at all. I feel like they take in all the young members until they're fully indoctrinated.

[RFTies]

Random observation: it looks like Michael’s wife Erin Shamblin deleted and/or shut down her Facebook page. I checked it a few times post crash and it was still up, now I can’t find anything.

Complete speculation: trouble brewing?

[Blue]

3 hours ago, RFTies said:

Random observation: it looks like Michael’s wife Erin Shamblin deleted and/or shut down her Facebook page. I checked it a few times post crash and it was still up, now I can’t find anything.

Complete speculation: trouble brewing?

Interesting... I can't find it either and everywhere that she had been tagged is no longer a link.

[treemom]

On 6/29/2021 at 1:15 PM, quiversR4hunting said:

She actually looks happy. I have only seen her in black or the white faux royalty get up, I wonder what will happen with color coordinating days that Gwen was fond of. 

I believe that is still done to fly over to Beaver Island, MI. http://www.islandairways.com/aircraft.html It has been almost 3 decades since I have been there so it might be different but looking at their website it seems the same process from the last time I was there. 

Can confirm.   Went to Beaver Island last fall for a week. (It was amazing.  I loved it)

[quiversR4hunting]

11 minutes ago, treemom said:

Can confirm.   Went to Beaver Island last fall for a week. (It was amazing.  I loved it)

Beaver Island is a little secret and I need to get back there, it has been way too long. 

I am going to add it is an introverts dream island.

[nelliebelle1197]

15 hours ago, SayonaraLara said:

Been keeping an eye on the Williamson County Online Court Record System for filings. Some expected and maybe unexpected filings.

Expected: 

Ashton Martin Jost, oldest child of David and Jennifer Martin, has filed for custody of her younger brothers, Aiden and Aaron. She also has filed as petitioner for her parents’ estate(s).

Unexpected:

Filing for custody of Jessica and Jonathan Walters’ three children are longtime Remnant leaders Patrick and Amy Stites. Jessica’s mother, Sandra, is  listed as an interested party.

The Walters’ estate(s) are perhaps more interesting. Jan Ruble —  a longtime Remnant member — is listed as Jonathan’s petitioner. But there are TWO filings for the estate of Jessica. On one (Jessica Renee Walters), Jan Ruble is petitioner and mother Sandra Solomon is an interested party. BUT, on the other (Jessica Solomon Walters), her father Malcolm Solomon is listed as petitioner. Guessing her parents aren’t together?

Nonexistent:

Any filings for the estate of Gwen Shamblin and/or Lara or William and/or Joe Lara. Any filings for Liana Lara (Joe’s daughter) or the Hannahs, but they still have surviving parents.

Also somewhat interesting: Russ Morgan, Remnant’s usual counsel, isn’t the attorney on any of these.

 

 

He likely not only has a conflict of interest but no experience in probate matters.

[treemom]

So I can talk most “likely”s in regards to custody in TN.  I went through it in the never ending divorce of 2015-2017. Joe was never married to the daughter’s mother, correct?  That changes things slightly.  That tends to be weighted more heavily in the favor of the mother, but generally TN (at least the metro areas) have made tons of progress like most states in understanding the needs of kids to have both parents.

 

Since it wasn’t a divorce, they wouldn’t have had to go through the parenting classes and obvs she’s not getting spousal support. But generally, legal custody is joint and all major decisions are made jointly.  As to actual parenting time, (there is a move away from calling parenting time custody or visitation) that can go anywhere from the much more standard these days, week on/week off, to a more historically standard of fathers getting every other weekend and a night during the week.

But idea is the parents try to work out the details for themselves.  So what happens when that can’t happen, judges tend to order the above.  

I will say I am surprised the mother didn’t move earlier, typically a TN court(again in the metro areas, the more rural areas who knows) won’t block a parent from moving, but may require extraordinary measures to give the other parent adequate parenting time, like flying the child back one weekend a month.  Giving up most holiday breaks and most of summer, etc.

 

Anyhow my guess is, Joe had his daughter 50/50.  Child support is formulaic, like most places and is based on the differential of parents income and parenting time (more complex than that, but it’s the gist).  If Joe did not have an income in his name, well that could also be some of what was happening with the very adversarial custody issues.

 

Edited July 2, 2021 by treemom

[quiversR4hunting]

26 minutes ago, treemom said:

Anyhow my guess is, Joe had his daughter 50/50.  Child support is formulaic, like most places and is based on the differential of parents income and parenting time (more complex than that, but it’s the gist).  If Joe did not have an income in his name, well that could also be some of what was happening with the very adversarial custody issues.

In some states (not sure about TN), the court or child support administration can impute income for a party that is underemployed. This is typically used for people that could be employed or could take a higher paying job but don't (think a line worker that has a master's degree in engineering; yes, some people purposely take a lower wage job to get out of paying child support). I would guess her attorney would try to impute income for Joe because he had work history.

It doesn't really matter now because with Joe gone, Natasha has full legal and physical custody of their daughter.