Dillards 85: Ungodly Swim Suits It's a Cruel Summer

[Idlewild]

5 hours ago, mpheels said:

Jill liking a post about boundaries and bodily autonomy is especially powerful - I hope she is finally understanding just how wrong Josh’s behavior was, that she was 100% correct to try to tell an adult that something was going on, and her parents’ response was massively inappropriate.

I hope Jill is getting support if she is working through these ideas. Realising as an adult that some of the things that happened to you as a child were not OK and the people who should have protected you didn’t do enough is difficult enough but throw in the patriarchy BS, the fetishising of modesty and purity and the general selfishness of JB & M then it’s a toxic and bewildering mix.

I hope she is able to find her own peace and enjoy relationships on her terms.

[SassyPants]

2 other striking differences between Jill’s life and those of her married sisters is the fact that the Dillards definitely attend a mainstream church. And it’s apparent from Jill’s social media account, she has a decent pool of friends with kids, and the families all socialize. Jill and Derick have a solid community of people surrounding them. 

[llg1234]

40 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

2 other striking differences between Jill’s life and those of her married sisters is the fact that the Dillards definitely attend a mainstream church. And it’s apparent from Jill’s social media account, she has a decent pool of friends with kids, and the families all socialize. Jill and Derick have a solid community of people surrounding them. 

https://www.crosschurch.com/abouthope/

If this is mainstream, then mainstream Christianity is still dangerous and not something to praise people for being a part of. Not bashing all Christians, just saying.

Lipstick on pig doesn't change the fact that it's still a pig. I can understand some of the praise Jill is getting, but they're still hateful. Especially Derrick. 

[just_ordinary]

5 minutes ago, llg1234 said:

https://www.crosschurch.com/abouthope/

If this is mainstream, then mainstream Christianity is still dangerous and not something to praise people for being a part of. Not bashing all Christians, just saying.

Lipstick on pig doesn't change the fact that it's still a pig. I can understand some of the praise Jill is getting, but they're still hateful. Especially Derrick. 

Don’t know where you a from, but I had to realise that al lot of what people call mainstream Christianity in the USA definitely falls in a VERY conservative, dare I say often extrem category for me.

[llg1234]

12 minutes ago, just_ordinary said:

Don’t know where you a from, but I had to realise that al lot of what people call mainstream Christianity in the USA definitely falls in a VERY conservative, dare I say often extrem category for me.

I’m from the Midwestern US. Just because it’s common doesn’t make it right. The US is dealing with large amounts of the population going further and further right. If the mainstream is homophobic, classist, transphobic etc, then there’s nothing praiseworthy about being mainstream. I’m going to keep pushing back against those view continuing being normalized. This should no longer be acceptable. 

Edited August 29, 2020 by llg1234

[Idlewild]

@llg1234 a few years ago Derick ‘reached out’ to gay people to join them at church but neglected to say a preacher specialising in ‘resolving’ same sex attraction was the guest preacher. While I agree these two have made progress and I’m glad Jill is addressing some of her toxic upbringing, they certainly don’t seem keen to distance themselves from this type of thinking.

[SassyPants]

I was referring to the church being good for the DILLARDS, not necessarily the community at large. Also, I think people need to realize that what you might find or label dangerous beliefs, fundies would also feel that your beliefs are dangerous. 

[purple_summer]

57 minutes ago, llg1234 said:

https://www.crosschurch.com/abouthope/

If this is mainstream, then mainstream Christianity is still dangerous and not something to praise people for being a part of. Not bashing all Christians, just saying.

Lipstick on pig doesn't change the fact that it's still a pig. I can understand some of the praise Jill is getting, but they're still hateful. Especially Derrick. 

You make good points, but to go from IFB/primarily home church to a run of the mill SBC church is a pretty big step. Most home church folks are vehemently anti “any church with member rolls and a 501c(3)”. It’s less insular and I can guarantee it’s more “mainstream” even if it is still very conservative. 

[llg1234]

40 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

I was referring to the church being good for the DILLARDS, not necessarily the community at large. Also, I think people need to realize that what you might find or label dangerous beliefs, fundies would also feel that your beliefs are dangerous. 

Good for the Dillards, unless Israel or Sam are members of the LGBT community. And fuck fundies, I don't care if they think a person's right to exist is dangerous. No one is forcing them to be gay or have an abortion. Acting like their concerns are legitimate is nothing more than a tolerance fallacy. 

[mpheels]

One of Derrick’s classmates is filing a complaint and seeking investigation into racial bias by AR state police. I’m sure DD and classmates have been asked not to comment on social media, but will probably make for some interesting conversations in class and study groups.

https://arktimes.com/arkansas-blog/2020/08/28/state-police-traffic-stop-of-black-law-student-draws-complaint-that-opens-door-to-review-of-police-enforcement-practices

[SassyPants]

18 minutes ago, llg1234 said:

Good for the Dillards, unless Israel or Sam are members of the LGBT community. And fuck fundies, I don't care if they think a person's right to exist is dangerous. No one is forcing them to be gay or have an abortion. Acting like their concerns are legitimate is nothing more than a tolerance fallacy. 

I am sure you are not advocating for everyone on the planet supporting and endorsing your exact value and belief structure? Because that is how your comment is coming off. If you expect people to allow you your belief structure, you have to afford them that same right. Do fundies have awful beliefs? Yes, by my values/beliefs they do, but they are still allowed to have those beliefs and even to vote based on those awful beliefs, and we are allowed to do the same. The approach you display in the above comment actually gets us nowhere in a civilized society.

[FloraDoraDolly]

4 hours ago, SassyPants said:

I am sure you are not advocating for everyone on the planet supporting and endorsing your exact value and belief structure? Because that is how your comment is coming off. If you expect people to allow you your belief structure, you have to afford them that same right. Do fundies have awful beliefs? Yes, by my values/beliefs they do, but they are still allowed to have those beliefs and even to vote based on those awful beliefs, and we are allowed to do the same. The approach you display in the above comment actually gets us nowhere in a civilized society.

I think it's also worth noting that people's beliefs can and do change over time. Look at where Jill was ten years ago vs. where she is now. Where will she be in ten years? We don't know. People can also change in the opposite direction, and become more religious or conservative as they age. Or they may have mixed views, depending on the issue. I know a woman who is a diehard Trump supporter, but she is also pro-LGBT rights. In terms of her religion, she belongs to a mainline Protestant denomination, but clashes with most of the rest of the congregation because they are *not* pro-Trump.

I think Jill's views will continue to evolve as she spends more time in the real world, away from Duggarland, and interacts with a wider variety of people. The same may be true for Derick as well, since he's in law school and is around mainstream people more than he was at the time he courted Jill.

[llg1234]

6 hours ago, SassyPants said:

I am sure you are not advocating for everyone on the planet supporting and endorsing your exact value and belief structure? Because that is how your comment is coming off. If you expect people to allow you your belief structure, you have to afford them that same right. Do fundies have awful beliefs? Yes, by my values/beliefs they do, but they are still allowed to have those beliefs and even to vote based on those awful beliefs, and we are allowed to do the same. The approach you display in the above comment actually gets us nowhere in a civilized society.

I really don't understand how you interpreted me saying that people's right to exist is the same as me supporting some sort of authoritarian rule. I thought that we were all on the same page in regards to conversion therapy. Yet, apparently me saying that a family isn't that great if they go to church that administrates that sort of thing makes me some kind of bad guy. 

I wonder: how do you feel about places that outlaw conversion therapy? Do you think that fundies' rights are being violated? Because if not, your argument isn't at all consistent. I don't think this place is right for me any longer. It's going further right, and if it thinks that homophobia is a legitimate viewpoint to have, I want nothing to do with it. 

 

Btw: I message a mod to deactivate my account. If I did it the wrong way, sorry.

Edited August 30, 2020 by llg1234

[Pecansforeveryone]

For the record, part of the reason Jill is being handled more gently at this time is because she is showing progress and hasn't posted anything hateful for a while. This is an attempt at a nuanced discussion, not a blind defense of Jill. The moment Jill starts posting about how she is taking Izzy and Sammy to protest Planned Parenthood, I expect posters in this thread rebuke her accordingly. 

Edited August 30, 2020 by Pecansforeveryone
Add a word

[Pleiades_06]

6 hours ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

This is an attempt at a nuanced discussion, not a blind defense of Jill

That’s how I’m reading this, and I know Jill is on a journey away from fundamentalism. Still, I think we all need to remember how hateful Derrick’s beliefs were/are and not give Jill a pass for being a bystander.

14 hours ago, SassyPants said:

Yes, by my values/beliefs they do, but they are still allowed to have those beliefs and even to vote based on those awful beliefs, and we are allowed to do the same

They are allowed to have awful beliefs but they are not allowed to oppress others due to them and it’s our job to call them out.

[Idlewild]

1 hour ago, Pleiades_06 said:

That’s how I’m reading this, and I know Jill is on a journey away from fundamentalism. Still, I think we all need to remember how hateful Derrick’s beliefs were/are and not give Jill a pass for being a bystander.

They are allowed to have awful beliefs but they are not allowed to oppress others due to them and it’s our job to call them out.

Agreed. I have stated I admire Jill for working through aspects of her childhood and making different choices and I know it’s a tough journey. However Jill’s fanbase largely agree with DD’s comments about Jazz and Nate ( which he has never publicly retracted) and when Jill inadvertently promoted the karma sutra she was quick to reinforce her belief that marriage can only be between a man and a woman as her fans were giving her pushback. She relies on the fans for her paid partnerships and solicits gifts from them so whether she has modified her views and is keeping quiet for commercial reasons or still thinks gay people are hell bound sinners in need of conversion we probably won’t know. 

[nelliebelle1197]

16 hours ago, SassyPants said:

I am sure you are not advocating for everyone on the planet supporting and endorsing your exact value and belief structure? Because that is how your comment is coming off. If you expect people to allow you your belief structure, you have to afford them that same right. Do fundies have awful beliefs? Yes, by my values/beliefs they do, but they are still allowed to have those beliefs and even to vote based on those awful beliefs, and we are allowed to do the same. The approach you display in the above comment actually gets us nowhere in a civilized society.

Tolerating hate and awful beliefs and normalizing those beliefs got us where we are in the US with Trump and a far right wing minority that is leading us down the path to right wing authoritarianism. People can believe what they want but it does not mean those beliefs are the right ones for a fair and just society to hold, it does not mean those beliefs should be validated by toleration and it does not mean those beliefs should not be challenged in a harsh and brutal way.  
 

Jill may not be as bad as other fundies right now,  but she is still a dangerous fundie with dangerous beliefs and a giant platform to spread her noxious hate.  She and her husband got kicked off TLC for their public  hate of Jazz. Until she apologizes for his words and renounces the hate, I see no reason to respect anything she does or be “encouraged” by her.  Pants, shorts, public school and a nose ring don’t make her a good person.

And by the way, moving from fundie to hipster conservative Christian isn’t exactly a big stretch. 

Edited August 30, 2020 by nelliebelle1197

[WiseGirl]

On 8/28/2020 at 10:26 PM, JazzyFresh said:

I'm assuming with covid, teachers are probably now stuck buying a supply of disposable masks, clorox wipes, and lysol spray along with the tissues and hand sanitizer for their classrooms.

Fortunately our district is providing most of this. I have an issue that is covered under ADA (American's with Disabilities Act) so I got a doctor's note for these accommodations just to be safe.

Again, I can't even ask parents for a box of tissue and the administrative assistant literaly counts how many boxes of tissue the school uses in a year. 

@JanasTattooParlor look into Donorschoose. I wish I had known about the Chrissy Tiegen thing regarding supply lists. 

[seraaa]

On 8/29/2020 at 12:33 PM, mpheels said:

Jill liking a post about boundaries and bodily autonomy is especially powerful - I hope she is finally understanding just how wrong Josh’s behavior was, that she was 100% correct to try to tell an adult that something was going on, and her parents’ response was massively inappropriate.

Regardless of anything else, I am so happy that this kind of thing seems to be helping her. Everyone deserves this. 

And even regardless of the views in question, I just really love that she's actually at a place in her life where she is able to choose, because she grew up in a much more closed system. Because of that history, we can know that they are definitely living more on their own terms at that is great.

Edited August 30, 2020 by seraaa

[Four is Enough]

I hope Jill has taught these things about bodily autonomy and boundaries to her children. I know I looked at a few things differently after I had children of my own..

I never forced them to hug, kiss, or go to anyone asking for them to get a hug or kiss. If they hesitated, I'd ask them if they wanted to shake hands or bow. If they bowed, they put their hands together in a respectful gesture and bowed. (a friend who didn't like personal contact taught us that. Rather than hug, we'd "respectully bow" in her direction)

If I got pushback from grandparents or aunties, I'd reinforce that it was the child's choice.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

13 minutes ago, Four is Enough said:

I hope Jill has taught these things about bodily autonomy and boundaries to her children. I know I looked at a few things differently after I had children of my own..

I never forced them to hug, kiss, or go to anyone asking for them to get a hug or kiss. If they hesitated, I'd ask them if they wanted to shake hands or bow. If they bowed, they put their hands together in a respectful gesture and bowed. (a friend who didn't like personal contact taught us that. Rather than hug, we'd "respectully bow" in her direction)

If I got pushback from grandparents or aunties, I'd reinforce that it was the child's choice.

I did this, too.  I certainly don't feel I was abused by being prodded to kiss Gramma hello, but I respected my kids bodily autonomy and taught them they don't owe anyone affection.  

[Iamtheway]

On 8/27/2020 at 6:17 AM, just_ordinary said:

I think in Scandinavia schools provide way more in comparison, but I don’t think their teachers would have to top up an allowance from their own purse.

Definitly not. The school supply everything needed. I’m horrified reading about teachers having to pay for books for their students with their own money. Miniway started public school in Sweden a couple of weeks ago. Here is the full list of things we have been asked to supply:

1. A cup with his name on it. 
2. A pencil case with room for 12 pens. (Not the pens, just the case.)

That’s it. And then we’re supposed to make sure he has the clothes he needs (no uniforms here) and if we want to he can bring a fruit for a snack. They get a cooked lunch but in case he gets hungry later. 
The school is completely free but we pay a fee for the afterschool care, were he gets an afternoon snack (and breakfast if you need care before school). We pay a 100 dollars (us) a month, if you’re low income it costs less. 
Next year all the kids get their own personal ipad for school. 

Everything isn’t perfect obviously but reading about the system in the US just makes me sad. 

[FloraDoraDolly]

14 hours ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

She and her husband got kicked off TLC for their public  hate of Jazz. Until she apologizes for his words and renounces the hate, I see no reason to respect anything she does or be “encouraged” by her.

I might have missed something, but did Jill herself say anything about Jazz? If not, then why should she have to apologize for her husband? Derick can deal with that himself. He's a grown man.

Personally, I would have had zero issues if Derick had gone after Jazz's mother. That woman is like Jim Bob and Michelle put together-- she pimps out her kid to the media for fame and $$$ (like Jim Bob), and fawns over her most very special precious child while paying little attention to her older kids (like Michelle after she had Josie). So if Derick had started an Internet beef with her, I would have just popped some corn and watched the fireworks. Instead, he went after Jazz, who was a minor at the time. But again, I don't blame Jill for that. The end result, with the Dillards leaving the world of reality TV, was probably the best for their whole family.

[IsmeWeatherwax]

I posted about the cost of my boys school uniform a bit back, but I forgot to say that my boys get an Ipad for years 7,8,9 and year 10 & 11 get chromebooks. Personally Id rather they used paper and had a cheaper uniform lol 

[Italiangirl]

 Jill's insta stories are about a thrift shop she and Sam are doing while Derick and Izzy are in school, they both (Sam and Jill) have masks on and they have encounter Amy too. So glad to see them with masks while shopping 

 

Edited August 31, 2020 by Italiangirl