Josh, Anna, M'Kids 22: Sex Pest and Fam in the Windowless Warehouse

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Continued from here...

Would be the worst Nancy Drew book ever.

 

Edited March 5, 2020 by HerNameIsBuffy

[OGEmoji]

I don't think Anna is happy. I think Anna is very good at playing the role she was raised to play, but I don't think she feels okay with it all, not deep down. She's a mom with a gaggle of young children and no career or education.  Even if she did want to leave, what would she do? Go back to her parents' house, who follow the same cult as her husband? Go out into the world, which she has been taught is scarier than her cheating, molester husband?  How would she support herself and the kids? 

Her parents traded her for fame and status, then her husband kept her pregnant nearly constantly to trap her.   

 

No, that is not a happy woman. I think she's miserable.

[QuiverFullofBooks]

19 minutes ago, OGEmoji said:

I don't think Anna is happy. I think Anna is very good at playing the role she was raised to play, but I don't think she feels okay with it all, not deep down. She's a mom with a gaggle of young children and no career or education.  Even if she did want to leave, what would she do? Go back to her parents' house, who follow the same cult as her husband? Go out into the world, which she has been taught is scarier than her cheating, molester husband?  How would she support herself and the kids? 

Her parents traded her for fame and status, then her husband kept her pregnant nearly constantly to trap her.   

 

No, that is not a happy woman. I think she's miserable.

That’s how we would look at it. I don’t think it’s how Anna sees things. First, I think there were multiple occasions on the show when it was clear that Anna wanted more babies, just babies babies babies, and Josh was clearly not thrilled about it. Also, she wasn’t pregnant constantly; her babies are two years or more apart. Even now, she only has six kids, Kenzie is old enough to be helpful, and there are tons of Duggar women to help out, plus Ben doing the homeschooling. Josh has always appeared to be good with his kids, and I think Anna probably gets more support than most fundie women. She’s certainly better off financially than she was growing up. Right now she has a newborn and she looks a little tired. That doesn’t mean she’s miserable.

[AussieKrissy]

32 minutes ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

That’s how we would look at it. I don’t think it’s how Anna sees things. First, I think there were multiple occasions on the show when it was clear that Anna wanted more babies, just babies babies babies, and Josh was clearly not thrilled about it. Also, she wasn’t pregnant constantly; her babies are two years or more apart. Even now, she only has six kids, Kenzie is old enough to be helpful, and there are tons of Duggar women to help out, plus Ben doing the homeschooling. Josh has always appeared to be good with his kids, and I think Anna probably gets more support than most fundie women. She’s certainly better off financially than she was growing up. Right now she has a newborn and she looks a little tired. That doesn’t mean she’s miserable.

That just made me cringe. I would not let that man anywhere near my child. I would not take that risk. 

[Ms. Squishels]

I think what makes Anna happy is being a Duggar.  I think she's willing to put up with Josh because she genuinely loves being part of that family.  And he keeps giving her babies, and she does seem to love having babies.  I also think she really looks up to Michelle and wants to be just like her.  I think Josh is more of a sperm donor at this point, but I think she otherwise has exactly what she wants.

[Perrierwithlemon]

If you look back at early episodes of Anna in 19 Kids, it is very obvious that she wanted to be like Michelle. I don't know if she has changed at all (she's been through a lot). I don't watch Counting On, so I don't know if I'm missing any signs of her wanting to change. Also, the Duggars in fundieland are essentially celebrities. Being married into the family is like marrying into royalty for them. 

[Idlewild]

 Way back in the FRC days Anna was on twitter condemning gay parents. All long deleted now of course. I’ve never bought the ‘sweet ignorant Anna’.

After the scandals broke and she made her choice she could have lived a private life and kept her children out of the limelight. Privacy controls on SM and refusing to be part of the circus- JB has little choice but to support her without a major PR disaster.

instead she is running an Instagram and Twitter, posting pictures of her children publicly, appearing on TV and trying to make #littleduggars a thing.

Throw in endorsement of Trump and pictures of herself screaming at women not to have abortions. You may gather I have zero sympathy for her. Her children, certainly, but not her. Like a PP said- she married fundie royalty and thinks she’s better than everyone -if the scandal hadn’t been exposed she would be appearing on Josh’s campaign ads sneering at female candidates. 

Her eldest daughter is approaching puberty- if Anna had any decency she would respect her privacy- but she’ll be paraded out in her matching outfits so Anna can sell a few more make up brushes. 

Josh is clearly not interested in protecting children, nor is Anna IMO.

[SillyDillys]

I have zero pity for Anna. She's an ignorant as they come. Talking about her "good proper christian marriage" and making black lives matter about abortions. I myself had a good cackle when the cheating came out. She was obnoxious and thought she was untouchable in the FRC days. I have no doubt she thinks she's better than us because she stuck by that scumbag and is a walking doormat. In her eyes she's true Christian, and we are all hell bound heathens for wearing pants and wanting more than marriage and and a overwhelming amount of children. Shes just sorta better at hiding it now

[SassyPants]

Does Anna’s cult believe, like many other religious sects, that earthly suffering and misery allows for an easier entry into eternal bliss? My mom is a lifelong Catholic as was my late MIL, and I am absolutely certain that they believe(d) suffering here on Earth gives them brownie points when it comes to entering the pearly gates.

A “woe is me” mentality.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

5 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Does Anna’s cult believe, like many other religious sects, that earthly suffering and misery allows for an easier entry into eternal bliss? My mom is a lifelong Catholic as was my late MIL, and I am absolutely certain that they believe(d) suffering here on Earth gives them brownie points when it comes to entering the pearly gates.

A “woe is me” mentality.

Do fundies believe in the purgatory here on Earth thing?  Or offering your suffering up to God, to get purgatory time shaved off?  

I always thought of it as my pain and suffering went into some spiritual bank account.  

ETA I know they don't believe in purgatory, but the suffering here for blessings in the afterlife same kind of concept.

Edited March 6, 2020 by HerNameIsBuffy

[Giraffe]

40 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Does Anna’s cult believe, like many other religious sects, that earthly suffering and misery allows for an easier entry into eternal bliss? My mom is a lifelong Catholic as was my late MIL, and I am absolutely certain that they believe(d) suffering here on Earth gives them brownie points when it comes to entering the pearly gates.

A “woe is me” mentality.

 

34 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I know they don't believe in purgatory, but the suffering here for blessings in the afterlife same kind of concept.

Yup.  Bible verse under spoiler. 

Spoiler

Romans 8:18 “I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.”

When that verse is paraded as the ideal, anything terrible that happens gets minimized as no big deal because Jesus went through so much more for us so who are we to complain? It’s infuriating!

[NachosFlandersStyle]

I didn't realize until seeing the birthday post that my partner is exactly one day younger than Josh. But if you saw pictures of them side by side you'd think Josh was a decade older.

[finnlassie]

19 hours ago, NachosFlandersStyle said:

I didn't realize until seeing the birthday post that my partner is exactly one day younger than Josh. But if you saw pictures of them side by side you'd think Josh was a decade older.

Being a rapey fuck certainly doesn't do anyone's appearance a favour, indeed. Josh seems to just be a really, REALLY sad person and that's right where he should be. Now only if I could censor his whole being from my life, that'd be great.

[Dandruff]

I think Josh is a creep but also think his parents, Gothardism, and the show worked against him.  If his parents hadn't had all those children, teaching them Wisdom booklets at the table, then maybe Josh would have had a better chance of pursuing higher education and becoming a lawyer like he said he wanted to.  If his parents had allowed him to date, with opportunities to spend time with girls who weren't related to him, then maybe he would have been less curious/desperate and not molested.  If his parents had gotten him real help after he first admitted to molesting, then maybe he wouldn't have done it again and one thing wouldn't have led to another leading to the police report being released to the public.  If the show hadn't come along then Josh wouldn't have been publicly portrayed as the ultra-fundie, responsible older brother who would be looking for an ultra-fundie girl to marry, and both the show and (I'm guessing) his parents wouldn't have encouraged a young, televised courtship and marriage to someone within their circle.  The viewers loved it but I don't think either Josh or Anna had much - if any - chance to back out once the relationship was made known to the public.  As I said, I think he's a creep, but I also think that the terrible behavior he demonstrated might have been avoided or modified early if his environment had been different.  I wouldn't want to meet him but I have some pity for him.  He's now living in what appears to be a windowless outbuilding with the wife he got caught cheating on, and six kids and counting (didn't he say he'd be happy with one or two?), doing who knows what for work.  Unclear whether he was ever able to get some higher education, will be able to, or has just given up on the idea.  I'm glad he was caught but, again, think it might all have been avoided if it weren't for the triple whammy of the his parenting, Gothardism, and the influence of the show and public response.  I believe everyone would have better off if the circumstances had been different.

[MoonFace]

Anna has been raised to see that being a mother to as many kids as she can spit out and teaching them the same fundy crap she's been raised with is her way of being a evangelist - get that WORD out there, ladies!   Produce more kids to spread the word!   

Moo is her ideal.   

[HerNameIsBuffy]

7 minutes ago, Dandruff said:

If his parents had allowed him to date, with opportunities to spend time with girls who weren't related to him, then maybe he would have been less curious/desperate and not molested. 

I will never agree with this.  He was 16 and his victims were 11, 9, 8, and 5.  Everyone is shocked at the 5 year old because it's so shocking, but so are his other prepubescent sisters he sexually abused.  

If he was 6, 7, 8...maybe curiosity.  He was 16 and they were children.  That not curiosity, that's a predator.  

I blame JB and M for so much, including that it continued to happen after they knew, but that it happened at all shows there is some integrally wrong with him.  So many guys go through high school, are sheltered, never had a gf until adulthood and don't prey upon children, including a pre-schooler.

They fucked him up 9 ways to Sunday, but something else is going on with him to account for his interest in prepubescent girls.

[RosyDaisy]

For me it's mot only the 5 year old, it's also the fact that 4 of his victims were his sisters.  Add to that the fact that he admitted to viewing porn.  So, no, this wasn't repressed sexual curiosity or his fucked up upbringing.  Something is very wrong with Josh.  I do blame JB and Michelle for the way they handled it and allowing it to continue though.  

[Dandruff]

3 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I blame JB and M for so much, including that it continued to happen after they knew, but that it happened at all shows there is some integrally wrong with him.  So many guys go through high school, are sheltered, never had a gf until adulthood and don't prey upon children, including a pre-schooler.

I agree there's something wrong with him, and hope no one thinks that I'm trying to defend his behavior.  I'm disgusted by anyone who would willfully commit an act of perversion/violence against a child.  Period.  That said, I think he was raised under extreme, isolating conditions that helped both to surface his problem and limit the potential for him and his victims to get therapy/protection in time.  I suspect that many young men with the same tendencies have parents and other environmental supports that curb the potential for molestation vs. enable it.  So, yeah, I blame Josh, but also strongly suspect that he could have turned out non-toxic to his younger sisters, etc., if it wasn't for JB&M and Gothardism.

[Natalie22]

On 3/7/2020 at 5:49 PM, Dandruff said:

I agree there's something wrong with him, and hope no one thinks that I'm trying to defend his behavior.  I'm disgusted by anyone who would willfully commit an act of perversion/violence against a child.  Period.  That said, I think he was raised under extreme, isolating conditions that helped both to surface his problem and limit the potential for him and his victims to get therapy/protection in time.  I suspect that many young men with the same tendencies have parents and other environmental supports that curb the potential for molestation vs. enable it.  So, yeah, I blame Josh, but also strongly suspect that he could have turned out non-toxic to his younger sisters, etc., if it wasn't for JB&M and Gothardism.

I just wanted to add some support to what you are saying.  I did a very brief search into the research surrounding this topic and the thing that came up most frequently (which is challenging since research is limited on incest between siblings/sibling-on-sibling- sexual assault) is that the children that offend typically are or were experience some form of extreme abuse.  This could be sexual, but also could be emotional, psychological, or physical.  Also mentioned was family issues surround addiction or mental illness.  It's hard to say whether Josh would have done what he did in different circumstances, but so far the limited research into this topic would suggest Josh himself was exposed to extreme abuse or very disruptive family situations.  Given what we know about JB &M and Gothardism, thats not hard to imagine.

[baldricks_turnip]

I think I mostly agree with where you are coming from, also. Josh is a creep and an asshole and I only want bad things to happen to him, but I also don't think he got that way entirely on his own.

I often think about who the most interesting Duggars are. By interesting I don't mean most intelligent or likable, just those that provide the most fodder for discussion. Jill has always been one of my least preferred but the signs she is breaking away make her interesting. I definitely find Josh interesting in the sense that I wonder how much he ever bought into Gothardism. Did he ever believe it was the path to salvation or was he just wanting to maintain his golden boy status by doing what was expected of him? (and that the latter would conveniently give him access to sex). I wonder if any of his actions in regards to his cheating scandal was done with some hope he'd be caught and could walk away from his responsibilities.

[Idlewild]

2 hours ago, baldricks_turnip said:

I think I mostly agree with where you are coming from, also. Josh is a creep and an asshole and I only want bad things to happen to him, but I also don't think he got that way entirely on his own.

I often think about who the most interesting Duggars are. By interesting I don't mean most intelligent or likable, just those that provide the most fodder for discussion. Jill has always been one of my least preferred but the signs she is breaking away make her interesting. I definitely find Josh interesting in the sense that I wonder how much he ever bought into Gothardism. Did he ever believe it was the path to salvation or was he just wanting to maintain his golden boy status by doing what was expected of him? (and that the latter would conveniently give him access to sex). I wonder if any of his actions in regards to his cheating scandal was done with some hope he'd be caught and could walk away from his responsibilities.

Josh never struck me as the most devout- I always thought he appeared smug and entitled even before the scandals broke.

i think he embraced right wing conservatism purely for the privileges it gave him as a white Christian male.

He also seemed to enjoy being on camera and selling the Duggar brand- again for the privileges - I remember one show where the family had done a photo shoot for a magazine and he was bragging how they give you new clothes to wear and you get to keep them. Without the show it’s highly unlikely he’d have been offered the FRC job as he lacked any education, charm or any other obvious qualities. Had the scandals not broken I imagine he’d be in politics now ( I actually doubt he’d have pursued a law career- he never seemed very bright and he’d still be operating on Duggar time plus have a load of children with no nearby family in DC). 
in short, devoted to serving Josh, rather than Jesus. 

Edited March 9, 2020 by Idlewild
Typo

[Pecansforeveryone]

Yeah, I think Josh was in it purely for the perks. I think of Joe as being the anti-Josh. Having a sweet, gentle side while also being the most loyal and devout in his families beliefs. 

Edited March 9, 2020 by Pecansforeveryone
Add a word

[HerNameIsBuffy]

15 minutes ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

Having a sweet, gentle side while also being the most loyal and devout in his families beliefs. 

Given how hateful his family's beliefs are Idk how he can also be sweet and gentle while holding bigoted views.  

Or sweet and gentle to people exactly like him, I guess?

Edited March 9, 2020 by HerNameIsBuffy

[Idlewild]

17 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Given how hateful his family's beliefs are Idk how he can also be sweet and gentle while holding bigoted views.  

Or sweet and gentle to people exactly like him, I guess?

And don’t forget when Joy was questioning her faith it was Joe that ensured she kept on brand. A sweet brother might have encouraged her to seek some proper counselling. I’m sure he’s nicer than Josh and probably believes what he says but he seems steeped in the Caldwell views and I don’t think they’re any better than the Duggars. 

[Xan]

I think what Josh did to his sisters is terrible.  To molest your five-year-old sister goes beyond curiosity.  It's just sick.

That being said, I think there is a great deal that Jim Bob and Michelle did to cause this.  They lived in that tiny house for a long time and it's probable that Josh heard a lot of things he shouldn't have heard.  Michelle was pregnant much of the time.  They exposed Josh to the reality of sex and then denied him education about it or outlets for any feelings he might have.  The film crew mentioned at one time that Jim Bob caught Josh masturbating so JB tied his hands together and made him do his chores all day with his hands tied.  They stopped letting the boys have heavy blankets or pillows because they were so afraid one of them would touch his own penis.

They gave Josh way too much responsibility for the younger children and they gave him access to all his victims.  JB and M were also firm believers in discipline and used the rod for "corrections".  That was in the police report.  (I've always privately wondered if the "goodbye room" in the TTH was used for corrections because everybody we saw on the program came in and out of the front door.)  You abuse a child, you neglect him, you push him into responsibilities before he's ready, you fail to adequately socialize him, and you deny him education about his own body -- you end up creating a monster.  

They should have gotten help for the girls and they should have removed Josh from the home permanently and gotten him counselling.  He could have been sent to live with relatives or put into some Christian school.  Maybe he would have preferred that to returning to live under JB's rules and helping with all those younger siblings.  Instead, once he returned, they buried it and enforced more crazy rules.  They made the girls forgive him.  In my mind, Jim Bob and Michelle failed their children -- particularly those girls.

3 hours ago, baldricks_turnip said:

 I wonder if any of his actions in regards to his cheating scandal was done with some hope he'd be caught and could walk away from his responsibilities.

Yeah..  He went from being the loved, oldest child to the keeper of the herd.  He probably did want to get away.  

This isn't minimizing what Josh did.  It's just pointing out his parents bear a ton of responsibility here too.