Josh, Anna, M'Kids 22: Sex Pest and Fam in the Windowless Warehouse

[Whipple]

5 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

By what criteria?

I agree. Josh seems to be a textbook narcissist who uses people. We have seen this trait play out in other ways.  He is smug, heseems to think he is entitled to take what he wants as if victims are playthings. As for his age, adult predators don't just spring up from the ether, they have to start somewhere. Somebody (45) wanted to put the young teens of the Central Park 5 to death remember? Many had no problem calling those innocents predators and rapists. But some folks explain away the Christian white boy's actions and fail to call him out for what he is just because he wasn't 18 yet when he committed the crimes. This was not experimenting, this was exploitation and worse of a 5-year-old. And yet he is welcomed back into the fold while Jill is pushed out. Sorry for the rant but I just can't with this family.

[Angelface]

10 hours ago, Peaches-n-Beans said:

I don't think Jimbob understands how that actually made it worse not better... 

 

Why didn’t he think “ hmmm, maybe this patriarchal system is flawed and we should look at changing things?” The lack of critical thinking skills appalls me. 

[Palimpsest]

We have this discussion by my guess about every 6 months.  And the same arguments are put forth ad infinitem.  Does Joshua Duggar fit the legal or psychological definitions of predator or pedophile, and so on.    And is it a screw loose in Josh's brain or did environment, especially the religious environment play a role?

I like to stick as far as possible to legal and mental health definitions for simplicity and accuracy's sakes, but there is no doubt in my mind that Joshua's behavior was predatory.  And that his behavior was sexually deviant, but he is not necessarily a pedophile (sexually fixated on children).  

I'll also point out that the Westermarck Effect is just a psychological hypothesis and not a proven fact.  Otherwise sexual abuse and incest would not be as common as they are, and most professionals believe sexual abuse and incest are seriously under-reported and hidden by families.  

But it shouldn't be a zero-sum debate.  The answer is almost certainly "there something very wrong with Joshua Duggar but the family and religious environment both fostered and failed to prevent his behavior and actions."

There is no doubt in my mind that the religious environment also played a part in Joshua's behavior and in the reactions of his parents and the church elders consulted by them.  Extreme religiosity is a known risk factor in child sexual abuse.

And Patriarchal religious beliefs definitely encourage sexual crimes.  They preach the ultimate authority of the male over female. they are fixated on sex, they are Bible (or other religious text) literalists, and generally hostile to the outside world, science, and conventional treatments.  It is a recipe for disaster.

15 hours ago, Giraffe said:

@neuroticcat, The book is “christianity and incest” by Annie Imbens and Ineke Jonker. Written in Dutch in 1985! I’ve taken picture of the table of contents for anyone interested. Feel free to dm me and I’ll send them to you.

 

Yes, an old study but still a good one. 

This is a good article that cites some other research.   It starts with Joshua Duggar and goes on to discuss the Justin Harris case, Focus on the Family in 2001 (a study found that 21% of evangelical church pastors have inappropriate contact with their flocks), Bob Jones, and so on. 

 https://thetattooedbuddha.com/2015/06/15/the-prevalence-of-sexual-abuse-in-fundamentalist-patriarchal-environments/.

That article is too old to cover the more recent Southern Baptist Convention sexual abuse scandal.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_abuse_scandal_in_Southern_Baptist_churches

 

[just_ordinary]

On 3/8/2020 at 2:18 AM, RosyDaisy said:

For me it's mot only the 5 year old, it's also the fact that 4 of his victims were his sisters.  Add to that the fact that he admitted to viewing porn.  So, no, this wasn't repressed sexual curiosity or his fucked up upbringing.  Something is very wrong with Josh.  I do blame JB and Michelle for the way they handled it and allowing it to continue though.  

I really don’t get what watching porn has to do with it???

[MargaretElliott]

At least we can all agree that he is, in fact, a sex pest. 

[Sullie06]

7 hours ago, Natalie22 said:

It sounds like you have a difficult job to do, but a super important one.  Do you happen to know if there has been any research on what makes a juvenile offender offend in these situations? My attempt to search out sources has turned up a few, but not much

There is for sure research out there but there needs to be more. NCJRS.Gov has some good resources. So obviously every case is different but adolescents with problematic sexual behaviors do have common factors. Males are more likely to offend, 40% of victims are either siblings or relatives, juvenile child molesters tend to rely on opportunity vs force, juvenile offenders on average suffer from deficits in self esteem or social competency, high rates of learning disabilities or educational dysfunction, difficulties with impulse control and there is also a correlation between history of victimization and future offenses. So we always say not all victims will offend and not all offenders have a history of victimization but it is an important correlation to note. 

[CarrotCake]

1 hour ago, just_ordinary said:

I really don’t get what watching porn has to do with it???

Watching porn without getting any actual sex education can be very harmfull.

Edited March 10, 2020 by CarrotCake

[HerNameIsBuffy]

9 hours ago, Born Skeptic said:

 He also does not meet the definitions of "rapist" or "pedophile".

You have no idea whether or not he meets the definition of pedophile as that would depend on whether he is attracted specifically to prepubescent children or is an opportunist.  None of us know whether that applies or now.

Using technicalities of age cut offs and the definition of rape (which varies according to jurisdictions) doesn't make him less of a predator.  He has a trail of 5 victims, he preyed on children far younger than himself over most of whom he had some power.  

and if you want to get into technicalities...from the dictionary for the word predator

Quote

A person or group that robs, victimizes, or exploits others for gain.

He certainly victimized multiple others for gain...gain being his sexual pleasure.

If you want to feel better, have at it, but for someone who isn't defending him you certainly are offering up some technical defense tactics.

[Natalie22]

41 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

 

He certainly victimized multiple others for gain...gain being his sexual pleasure.

If you want to feel better, have at it, but for someone who isn't defending him you certainly are offering up some technical defense tactics.

One thing I think we should be careful of is saying that he gained sexual pleasure from what he did.  Sexual assault is just as often, if not more commonly, associated with gaining and expressing power than about actual sexual gratification.  

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 hour ago, Natalie22 said:

One thing I think we should be careful of is saying that he gained sexual pleasure from what he did.  Sexual assault is just as often, if not more commonly, associated with gaining and expressing power than about actual sexual gratification.  

Yes, there is absolutely an element of power, intimidation, and devaluation with sexual assault, but I given his history I think it's naïve not to think he was also doing it for his own sexual gratification.

[Glasgowghirl]

I remember when the first scandal broke and Josh issued a statement and he said I stopped because I realised what a horrible impact it would have on myself or something along those lines. Nothing about the hurt he caused his sister's and the other victim or the impact it had on his other siblings too. When talking on TV about the scandals John and Joseph in particular seemed to have a lot harsh things to say about him, I think the older Duggar's all have a love/hate relationship with Josh, I never got the impression any of them were close to Josh, him and John were grouped together on the show but I always got the impression Josh thought he could boss John around because he was older. 

[nokidsmom]

To quote @Glasgowghirl's post from the last thread:

Quote

Jim Bob lapped it up when Josh was working with the FRC and living in Washington and running in Republican circles and he never thought that Josh would be exposed when it did, the irony is that if they had reported it when it happened his records would have been sealed. The rumours were already on the internet and all it took was a freedom of information request to get the information leaked.

I always found it ironic (and karmic as well) that the seeds of Joshley's fall from grace and expulsion from the FRC was inadvertently sown by his own parents, namely his dad.  By reporting it when it happened and to the right authorities, his records would have been sealed and, assuming he did not mess up again as an adult, nothing would have come out.   There's still the question of Ashley Madison as that was the second scandal to come to light in short order, but the molestation reports would have been sealed and he would have just been derided as a cheater rather than both a cheater and a sibling molester. 

21 hours ago, Glasgowghirl said:

Agreed, at best he can do is work on the car lot like he was doing at when he was 20, while their is nothing wrong with that, Josh had ambition's beyond that but with him having no qualifications, no job experience outside the car lot and FRC, two public scandals and the fact he isn't a likable person to begin with. 

I think that if it weren't for the scandals, he would still be at the FRC, rubbing elbows with GOP big shots, possibly making calls to "pray away" the coronavirus.

He got in because of being the eldest son of the "wholesome Christian family", their conservative connections and nothing more.  Once out of there, there really was nothing for him to do but to come back to NWA after his stint in Jesus Jail.   He could make the effort to do something else, but he doesn't.  He may have the ambition, but seems to have no drive to make it happen by getting any necessary qualifications, education or experience.   As much people still refer to him as the "sex pest" I imagine there are still those in the family circles who will believe in forgiveness, etc. and give him a chance, but he would have to put in the effort. 

He doesn't want to.  I honestly don't know how Anna copes with it, seeing how far he's fallen and taken her and the family with him.  There's nothing wrong with working the car lot but it seems that wasn't something he expected or wanted to be doing  for the rest of his life.   And being on JB's short lease seems to be 10th Circle of Duggar Hell.  One would think he would do what he could to get out of it.

 

Edited March 10, 2020 by nokidsmom

[Palimpsest]

4 hours ago, MargaretElliott said:

At least we can all agree that he is, in fact, a sex pest. 

While I know that Daily Fail term has caught on, it trivialises the problem. 

I infinitely prefer to call him what he is:  A confessed sexual offender who molested 5 victims, 4 of them his sisters, and escaped criminal charges by the skin of his teeth.  That was thanks to an overly short Statute of Limitations and idiotic parents who covered up for him to the detriment of his victims and denied him proper treatment as an adolescent.

And, were I Anna, I would have divorced him as soon as he confessed to cheating.  She can never trust him again and I hope she has regular checkups for STDs.   IMO, he'll cheat again, because he has never had proper treatment for his issues.  Reformers Unanimous (AKA Jesus therapy) is not proper treatment.   I just hope that he confines his cheating to consenting adults in the future. 

1 hour ago, Glasgowghirl said:

I remember when the first scandal broke and Josh issued a statement and he said I stopped because I realised what a horrible impact it would have on myself or something along those lines. Nothing about the hurt he caused his sister's and the other victim or the impact it had on his other siblings too. When talking on TV about the scandals John and Joseph in particular seemed to have a lot harsh things to say about him, I think the older Duggar's all have a love/hate relationship with Josh, I never got the impression any of them were close to Josh, him and John were grouped together on the show but I always got the impression Josh thought he could boss John around because he was older. 

It took me 30 seconds to find his 2015 statement on the Duggar site.  Judge for yourself, and note that he did not mention Ashley Madison even though he had been caught red-handed in that cookie jar.

Quote

Statement From Josh Duggar:

I have been the biggest hypocrite ever. While espousing faith and family values, I have secretly over the last several years been viewing pornography on the internet and this became a secret addiction and I became unfaithful to my wife. 

I am so ashamed of the double life that I have been living and am grieved for the hurt, pain and disgrace my sin has caused my wife and family, and most of all Jesus and all those who profess faith in Him. 

I brought hurt and a reproach to my family, close friends and the fans of our show with my actions that happened when I was 14-15 years old, and now I have re-broken their trust. 

The last few years, while publicly stating I was fighting against immorality in our country while hiding my own personal failings.

As I am learning the hard way, we have the freedom to choose our actions, but we do not get to choose our consequences. I deeply regret all the hurt I have caused so many by being such a bad example. 

I humbly ask for your forgiveness. Please pray for my precious wife Anna and our family during this time. 

Josh Duggar 

Yeah, yeah.  He cops to cheating and a possible porn addiction.   He tries to get away from his actions when he was *only* 14 and 15.  And says sorry.  But I doubt he has any real empathy for his victims.

The thing that has boggled my mind since Joshua Duggar's molestations were confirmed is that within months the Duggars were filming a special for Discovery Health.  WTF was wrong with Jim Bob's judgement given that the family secret barely swept under the rug!  14 Children and Pregnant Again! aired in 2004.  

Joshua was only removed from the family for a couple of months for his "punishment" with an IBLP bullshitter.  The he is bought back and rewarded by  starring in the first special.  He narrated it, IIRC.

Even way back then, Josh earned his Smugger handle.  He was bossy, conceited, and unpleasant.  He probably thought he was a helluva kid.  Just a red-blooded young Fundie lad who had been lead into temptation by his evil sisters and a family friend.  And these days he probably still thinks everything is fine.  He fell into temptation just like King David and has been forgiven.  And if he slips again, then he will be forgiven again, because all real men fight with temptation.

Sheesh!  Excuse the rant, but Fundies piss me off!  And Josh Duggar really pisses me off.

 

 

Edited March 10, 2020 by Palimpsest

[SilverBeach]

On 3/9/2020 at 1:59 PM, Sullie06 said:

Josh is to blame for his actions and they are to blame for their inaction.

Perfectly stated.

12 hours ago, Whipple said:

As for his age, adult predators don't just spring up from the ether, they have to start somewhere. Somebody (45) wanted to put the young teens of the Central Park 5 to death remember? Many had no problem calling those innocents predators and rapists. But some folks explain away the Christian white boy's actions and fail to call him out for what he is just because he wasn't 18 yet when he committed the crimes.

Say it! I totally agree. Bravo, applause, all of that. As a black person, I can't help but notice the disparity in how blackmale teens and white male teens are viewed.

Edited March 10, 2020 by SilverBeach

[just_ordinary]

I am always surprised that people seem to throw the molestation into the same pot regarding what Anna should do/feel as the cheating/porn. 
I realise that Anna probably comes from a mindset where they are equal or where the cheating is even worse but that is just complete bullshit. Having a partner with a sexual offence history that hasn’t professionally been dealt with should be the big problem here. I couldn’t forgive the first fact and the second would make me sure for single custody and only supervised visits till he got some therapy (no matter if he is attracted to children or not. Just to be on the save side). 
A cheating partner is nothing unusual or out of the ordinary. And I think it’s not impossible to overcome. Yes, we can assume that they are not dealing with it in a good way but same goes for the molestation. As long as that isn’t a problem for them I don’t get why the cheating should be the reason to act.

I do find it problematic if we start mixing up technical terms that have an actual meaning in a medical and legal way. Not because I want to defend him but because it weakens the impact and meaning these words have. It’s the same with the very real diagnosis of narcissism. If I read one more post (not around here thank god) why x and y proofs someone is a narcissist I might have to scream.  There are many ways of showing your disgust for Josh without making claims no one can prove.

We have no idea if Josh is in fact a paedophile or a rapist. We do know for a fact he is a sexual offender ( @Palimpsest put it out very well).

It’s the same with people making the wildest assumptions about child porn and Josh after the investigation. Nothing in the slightest has come out of it in that direction. But people loved stirring that specific fire- which makes them look pretty bad in my eyes, especially as there were no hints in that direction at all apart from extremely questionable sources.

[SilverBeach]

5 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

We have this discussion by my guess about every 6 months.  And the same arguments are put forth ad infinitem. 

Yep, it's one of the FJ revolving topics of doom. People rarely change their positions on these topics, but they come up again like clockwork. Before anybody says it, I realize there are new members who may not be aware or prior iterations of this discussion. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

6 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

Yep, it's one of the FJ revolving topics of doom. People rarely change their positions on these topics, but they come up again like clockwork. Before anybody says it, I realize there are new members who may not be aware or prior iterations of this discussion. 

Yes, it comes up again and again...just like seeing him with his daughters and younger sisters brings it to mind for many of us with each pic.  

[SilverBeach]

45 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

While I know that Daily Fail term has caught on, it trivialises the problem. 

I know you feel this way, but I don't. I don't see pest in this context as being something as trivial as a gnat. I see it more as a form of pestilence, a really bad thing. I don't impose my American definition of pest onto the British term sex pest. I'm not British, but I can't imagine the term was created to trivialize sexual criminals.

45 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

And, were I Anna, I would have divorced him as soon as he confessed to cheating. 

You and me both. 

Edited March 10, 2020 by SilverBeach

[lizzybee]

I feel like we keep talking about this because it was dealt with so unsatisfactorily in the first place on all counts, and then Anna or the family will drag up all these feelings again with  her passive aggressive “happy birthday/Father’s Day/merry Christmas/whatever to my BEST FRIEND” social media posts and then so many people are left feeling so negative and confused about it all that we can’t help going back to the drawing board and being like “okay let’s just go over once more how effed up this is, because I can’t handle her insisting everything is amazing.”

[SilverBeach]

44 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

Fundies piss me off!  And Josh Duggar really pisses me off.

Yep, can't stand him, if his ugly face is never shown again, that would be fine by me. Disgusting pervert.

15 minutes ago, just_ordinary said:

Having a partner with a sexual offence history that hasn’t professionally been dealt with should be the big problem here.

Should be, but that ship sailed after Pa Keller sold Anna to the Duggars. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

4 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

Should be, but that ship sailed after Pa Keller sold Anna to the Duggars. 

Yes, that was her father's decision.  She says she was told prior, but I don't believe a woman who didn't know the mechanics of sex until the week of her wedding knew the scope of what he had done to his victims.

But she's an adult now, a mother of six.  It will always suck for her that her dad let her down, but it just means she needed to deal with it once she was aware...and has chosen not to.  Her attempts at normalizing him, while she has baby after baby for a child molester, ensures this topic will keep coming up on a forum that discusses their family.

[SilverBeach]

2 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

It will always suck for her that her dad let her down, but it just means she needed to deal with it once she was aware...and has chosen not to. 

Anna would have needed to deal with it before she said I do. Her critical thinking skills, if any, were left at the altar when it comes to Joshua. She fetishizes marriage and children, and cannot perceive herself in any other role. Anna is willfully blind to the abomination she married, and in some way still benefits from being married to him. I have zero respect for her, especially after she had those marriage rescue babies. 

[SassyPants]

55 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

While I know that Daily Fail term has caught on, it trivialises the problem. 

I infinitely prefer to call him what he is:  A confessed sexual offender who molested 5 victims, 4 of them his sisters, and escaped criminal charges by the skin of his teeth.  That was thanks to an overly short Statute of Limitations and idiotic parents who covered up for him to the detriment of his victims and denied him proper treatment as an adolescent.

And, were I Anna, I would have divorced him as soon as he confessed to cheating.  She can never trust him again and I hope she has regular checkups for STDs.   IMO, he'll cheat again, because he has never had proper treatment for his issues.  Reformers Unanimous (AKA Jesus therapy) is not proper treatment.   I just hope that he confines his cheating to consenting adults in the future. 

It took me 30 seconds to find his 2015 statement on the Duggar site.  Judge for yourself, and note that he did not mention Ashley Madison even though he had been caught red-handed in that cookie jar.

Yeah, yeah.  He cops to cheating and a possible porn addiction.   He tries to get away from his actions when he was *only* 14 and 15.  And says sorry.  But I doubt he has any real empathy for his victims.

The thing that has boggled my mind since Joshua Duggar's molestations were confirmed is that within months the Duggars were filming a special for Discovery Health.  WTF was wrong with Jim Bob's judgement given that the family secret barely swept under the rug!  14 Children and Pregnant Again! aired in 2004.  

 

 

The billion dollar question. How did JB think he would get away with shilling Jesus and family values with this under his own roof? He is either an idiot or one of the biggest narcissistic egomaniacs ever to walk the planet.

 

55 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

 

 

 

[SilverBeach]

2 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

How did JB think he would get away with shilling Jesus and family values with this under his own roof?

He didn't anticipate that the internet has shrunk the world and makes secrets a lot harder to keep. 

[Perrierwithlemon]

Personally, I think that Josh's 2015 statement reads like he is sorry for getting caught, not sorry for being a sexual offender and cheater.