Josh, Anna, M'Kids 22: Sex Pest and Fam in the Windowless Warehouse

[HerNameIsBuffy]

17 minutes ago, Xan said:

That being said, I think there is a great deal that Jim Bob and Michelle did to cause this.  They lived in that tiny house for a long time and it's probable that Josh heard a lot of things he shouldn't have heard.  Michelle was pregnant much of the time.  They exposed Josh to the reality of sex and then denied him education about it or outlets for any feelings he might have. 

To the point of hearing his parents having sex, as horrific as that is to those of us in this generation for most of history the vast majority of people lived without even dreaming of the privacy at home we enjoy.

I'm not making it okay...just saying if that contributed to it then I think we'd see a whole lot more sexual abuse in almost every family from the beginning of time.

They denied him education, which is wrong, but many, many people are raised, even today without proper sex ed from their parents.  And he certainly had access to porn.  

I'm not saying JB and M are blameless.  They created a dangerous environment and then when something happened didn't handle it or get him help so it happened again and again.  That's all on them.  

But if we're going to say that being sheltered, denied proper sex education, and outlets is why he preyed on his prepubescent sisters in addition to the sitter, then we need to address why the millions and millions of other boys who don't learn about sex from their parents and graduate high school with no sexual experience also aren't preying on young children.

I don't doubt that rates of sexual abuse are likely higher in Gothard followers than in typical families, but if we're going to lay his initial assaults (prior to JB and M knowing) at their door than we need to wonder why almost all boys raised in this environment aren't also predators.

I think he was predisposed to be a monster and JB and M created the perfect environment for that to flourish and hide for sure...but if we're going to say that's part of the cause then I disagree unless someone can show me how other teenage boys are equally at risk of this merely because their parents didn't educate them and lack of experience with girls their age.  

[SassyPants]

46 minutes ago, Xan said:

I think what Josh did to his sisters is terrible.  To molest your five-year-old sister goes beyond curiosity.  It's just sick.

That being said, I think there is a great deal that Jim Bob and Michelle did to cause this.  They lived in that tiny house for a long time and it's probable that Josh heard a lot of things he shouldn't have heard.  Michelle was pregnant much of the time.  They exposed Josh to the reality of sex and then denied him education about it or outlets for any feelings he might have.  The film crew mentioned at one time that Jim Bob caught Josh masturbating so JB tied his hands together and made him do his chores all day with his hands tied.  They stopped letting the boys have heavy blankets or pillows because they were so afraid one of them would touch his own penis.

They gave Josh way too much responsibility for the younger children and they gave him access to all his victims.  JB and M were also firm believers in discipline and used the rod for "corrections".  That was in the police report.  (I've always privately wondered if the "goodbye room" in the TTH was used for corrections because everybody we saw on the program came in and out of the front door.)  You abuse a child, you neglect him, you push him into responsibilities before he's ready, you fail to adequately socialize him, and you deny him education about his own body -- you end up creating a monster.  

They should have gotten help for the girls and they should have removed Josh from the home permanently and gotten him counselling.  He could have been sent to live with relatives or put into some Christian school.  Maybe he would have preferred that to returning to live under JB's rules and helping with all those younger siblings.  Instead, once he returned, they buried it and enforced more crazy rules.  They made the girls forgive him.  In my mind, Jim Bob and Michelle failed their children -- particularly those girls.

Yeah..  He went from being the loved, oldest child to the keeper of the herd.  He probably did want to get away.  

This isn't minimizing what Josh did.  It's just pointing out his parents bear a ton of responsibility here too.

Also, after seeing JB hump Michelle on the golf course, basically simulating the sex act when they were chaperoning a date ( maybe even the first date) of Jessa and Ben, I wonder how many overt acts Josh witnessed over the years, in that tiny house. Worse yet, did JB taunt Josh with a “you can’t do this, yet” as he did with Jessa and Ben? Yes, Josh is a creeper, but IMO, that apple did not fall far from JB’s Tree. What’s JB hang up regarding sex? Why would he taunt his kids regarding sex? They lived in that tiny house with as many as 15 kids, some of them teens, for a good long time. Too long, IMO. If foster kids need a certain about of square footage per the state, why don’t biological kids? Beyond all else JB is responsible, as the headship, for irresponsible procreation. The neck, equally so, again, IMO.

[Xan]

1 hour ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I don't doubt that rates of sexual abuse are likely higher in Gothard followers than in typical families, but if we're going to lay his initial assaults (prior to JB and M knowing) at their door than we need to wonder why almost all boys raised in this environment aren't also predators.

I think he was predisposed to be a monster and JB and M created the perfect environment for that to flourish and hide for sure...but if we're going to say that's part of the cause then I disagree unless someone can show me how other teenage boys are equally at risk of this merely because their parents didn't educate them and lack of experience with girls their age.  

I think if we're trying to do a Venn diagram of the subset of boys raised like Josh, we're not looking a millions or thousands.  We might be looking at hundreds, at most.  And if we were able to gather information on boys raised by fundamentalists, home schooled, more than ten siblings, small house, oversexed father, limited social contact with what would be a peer group, physical discipline, responsibility for opposite sex siblings, etc., we would find more of these situations.  

I don't disagree that Josh probably has pathology.  I'm just saying that, in this kind of setting, not only was that pathology not addressed, it was nurtured.

I grew up in a smallish house with a number of siblings.  And, yes, we sometimes could hear our parents in bed.  But we were allowed to go to school and interact with a peer group.  We had access to information about sex.  There are fundie home schoolers who don't put the older sons in charge of younger females or that, perhaps, explain sex to them without humping their mother in the kitchen.  The Duggar subset in my Venn diagram illustrates the perfect storm of how to nurture sex pathology.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Xan

[HerNameIsBuffy]

4 minutes ago, Xan said:

I think if we're trying to do a Venn diagram of the subset of boys raised like Josh, we're not looking a millions or thousands.  We might be looked at hundreds, at most.  And if we were able to gather information on boys raised by fundamentalists, home schooled, more than ten siblings, small house, oversexed father, limited social contact with what would be a peer group, physical discipline, responsibility for opposite sex siblings, etc., we would find more of these situations.  

I don't disagree that Josh probably has pathology.  I'm just saying that, in this kind of setting, not only was that pathology not addressed, it was nurtured.

I grew up in a smallish house with a number of siblings.  And, yes, we sometimes could hear our parents in bed.  But we were allowed to go to school and interact with a peer group.  We had access to information about sex.  There are fundie home schoolers who don't put the older sons in charge of younger females or that, perhaps, explain sex to them without humping their mother in the kitchen.  The Duggar subset in my Venn diagram illustrates the perfect storm of how to nurture sex pathology.

I was responding to the original comments.  Obviously changing the goalposts to include the mega family means my numbers don't apply.

I don't think we disagree on the main point which is Josh has something wrong with him and JB and M created the perfect environment to nurture his pathology.

Something happened to Josh where the Westermark effect didn't take and that would be not only interesting, but really beneficial to society if we could figure out what that is.

 

[viii]

If we are going to put a good chunk of the blame and responsibility on JB and Michelle, plus Gothardism, then surely the other boys in the family would have similar stories. However, as far as we know, it's only ever been Josh. So while I do think his environment certainly didn't help the situation, I don't think it caused it. Regardless of where and how Josh was raised, I think something similar would have happened, but probably not to the repeated extent it did here, thanks to his parents. 

[Sullie06]

I work with adolescent sexual offenders or adolescent's with illegal sexual behaviors. I actually have a case where the offense is very similar to Josh's (offended against siblings. 5+ age gap with the offender being older) but they are not fundamentalists. The first time it happened the family brushed it under the rug. It happened again. This time the legal system and CPS got involved. The offender was convicted and removed from the home, the family all has to participate in very specific sexual abuse treatment and the offender was sentenced to a term of Probation supervision. The program is intensive and 12+ months long. CPS remains involved during the course. The parents were charged with inadequate guardianship. This is what Josh needed. What he did was predatory but where JB and M come into blame is how the situation was handled afterwords. Josh is to blame for his actions and they are to blame for their inaction.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Sullie06

[HerNameIsBuffy]

5 minutes ago, Sullie06 said:

I work with adolescent sexual offenders or adolescent's with illegal sexual behaviors. I actually have a case where the offense is very similar to Josh's (offended against siblings. 5+ age gap with the offender being older) but they are not fundamentalists. The first time it happened the family brushed it under the rug. It happened again. This time the legal system and CPS got involved. The offender was convicted and removed from the home, the family all has to participate in very specific sexual abuse treatment and the offender was sentenced to a term of Probation supervision. The program is intensive and 12+ months long. CPS remains involved during the course. The parents were charged with inadequate guardianship. This is what Josh needed. What he did was predatory but where JB and M come into blame is how the situation was handled afterwords. Josh is to blame for his actions and they are to blame for their inaction.

Thank you for doing the work you do.  I can imagine it's absolutely gut wrenching at times, but it's so important and I'm glad you have the strength to do it.

[Sullie06]

3 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Thank you for doing the work you do.  I can imagine it's absolutely gut wrenching at times, but it's so important and I'm glad you have the strength to do it.

It can be the toughest job in the world some days but if we can help one family, one victim, one offender, it's a good week. 

[neuroticcat]

I agree that something about the fundie isolation must increase it since in all the interviews the Duggars sincerely seemed to think this sort of thing happened frequently in families. Either they were blatantly lying (possible) or it really is fed by the subculture somehow. 
 

But then I think we culturally might underestimate the sexual urges the adolescent male. I remember reading that colonial families often separated teen boys into outbuilding living spaces  once they matured - in order to minimize assault on females in the house. I don’t know how accurate this is or not but high school sexual assault is a real issue, so...I’m not too surprised all females are sexualized - even young ones- in toxic modesty culture. 
 

I don’t look at my teen boys and think: potential abuser! But I wonder if any parent does. Teaching consent, teaching respect for others’ bodies and what no means - all of that is part of my job as a parent. And so is protecting all of my kids. For that reason even though I’ve taught my boys these things and trust them, I won’t ever have my tween/teen sons babysit my much younger daughter. 
 

In this case, I think JB and M and fundie doctrine failed everyone: no concept of consent, instant obedience to authority figures (including older siblings), zero appropriate sex Ed, modesty culture, misogyny, no autonomy for children, no safety measures in place, no appropriate follow up and treatment for Josh or victims...what a disaster! 

[Giraffe]

@neuroticcat, I bought a book months ago that discusses the higher-than-normal rate of incest in Christian families (I believe it was specifically fundamentalists). I’ll look it up when I get home. Posting this to remind myself. 

Edited March 9, 2020 by Giraffe
Removing unnecessary words

[freealljs]

I saw Anna’s IG posts about Sex Pest’s birthday. He was surrounded, on his 32nd birthday, by a bunch of kids. I almost felt bad for Pest, because I couldn’t imagine being 32 and having a birthday party with mostly kids and no same age friends.  He really should cut the apron strings.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 minutes ago, freealljs said:

I saw Anna’s IG posts about Sex Pest’s birthday. He was surrounded, on his 32nd birthday, by a bunch of kids. I almost felt bad for Pest, because I couldn’t imagine being 32 and having a birthday party with mostly kids and no same age friends.  He really should cut the apron strings.

How can he?  He has 6 children and no way of earning a living with which to support them.  For all Michelle's talk, Josh's ability to leave and cleave is non-existent.

[Glasgowghirl]

13 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

How can he?  He has 6 children and no way of earning a living with which to support them.  For all Michelle's talk, Josh's ability to leave and cleave is non-existent.

Agreed, at best he can do is work on the car lot like he was doing at when he was 20, while their is nothing wrong with that, Josh had ambition's beyond that but with him having no qualifications, no job experience outside the car lot and FRC, two public scandals and the fact he isn't a likable person to begin with. 

[Idlewild]

I’m not that bothered about him spending his birthday with his children- most kids like to make a fuss of their parents on their birthday. What got me was that ( presumably) Anna had got him balloons with 32 in balloon form! It’s not a significant birthday and it seemed so infantile - I assume she just treats him like another kid she has to take care of.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

6 minutes ago, Idlewild said:

I’m not that bothered about him spending his birthday with his children- most kids like to make a fuss of their parents on their birthday. What got me was that ( presumably) Anna had got him balloons with 32 in balloon form! It’s not a significant birthday and it seemed so infantile - I assume she just treats him like another kid she has to take care of.

It wasn't just his kids, though.   It was the majority of his minor siblings and few (any, except Jana?) of his adult siblings.  

[Idlewild]

2 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

It wasn't just his kids, though.   It was the majority of his minor siblings and few (any, except Jana?) of his adult siblings.  

I think the M kids spend a lot of time at the main house and probably see the younger Duggars as siblings rather than aunts/ uncles. His older siblings have small children and some were in Tennessee with poser Bates. And if I was one of his victims I certainly wouldn’t be arsed about grinning for pictures with him in a bowling alley! 

JB, Michelle and Anna seem determined to put on a show of ‘everything is fine: all is forgiven and forgotten’. I doubt his older siblings agree and I doubt Josh really believes it either.

[Giraffe]

@neuroticcat, The book is “christianity and incest” by Annie Imbens and Ineke Jonker. Written in Dutch in 1985! I’ve taken picture of the table of contents for anyone interested. Feel free to dm me and I’ll send them to you.

 

This is how the first chapter opens. 

Spoiler

“My father had very ‘Christian’ ideas about women. He thought women should be submissive, obedient, servile.”

Edited March 9, 2020 by Giraffe

[Born Skeptic]

On 3/7/2020 at 5:12 PM, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I will never agree with this.  He was 16 and his victims were 11, 9, 8, and 5.  Everyone is shocked at the 5 year old because it's so shocking, but so are his other prepubescent sisters he sexually abused.  

If he was 6, 7, 8...maybe curiosity.  He was 16 and they were children.  That not curiosity, that's a predator.  

I blame JB and M for so much, including that it continued to happen after they knew, but that it happened at all shows there is some integrally wrong with him.  So many guys go through high school, are sheltered, never had a gf until adulthood and don't prey upon children, including a pre-schooler.

They fucked him up 9 ways to Sunday, but something else is going on with him to account for his interest in prepubescent girls.

I am not attempting to defend Josh.  But...If Josh's victims were ages 5 to 11, then Josh was 14 or 15.  While that doesn't make things dramatically better, it does take him out of the the "predator" category.    

[AussieKrissy]

28 minutes ago, Born Skeptic said:

I am not attempting to defend Josh.  But...If Josh's victims were ages 5 to 11, then Josh was 14 or 15.  While that doesn't make things dramatically better, it does take him out of the the "predator" category.    

A 14 year old touches my five year old, they dam well are a predator and better hope I am not holding a knife.....

Josh was a predator! 

[squiddysquid]

8 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

To the point of hearing his parents having sex, as horrific as that is to those of us in this generation for most of history the vast majority of people lived without even dreaming of the privacy at home we enjoy.

I'm not making it okay...just saying if that contributed to it then I think we'd see a whole lot more sexual abuse in almost every family from the beginning of time.

They denied him education, which is wrong, but many, many people are raised, even today without proper sex ed from their parents.  And he certainly had access to porn.  

I'm not saying JB and M are blameless.  They created a dangerous environment and then when something happened didn't handle it or get him help so it happened again and again.  That's all on them.  

But if we're going to say that being sheltered, denied proper sex education, and outlets is why he preyed on his prepubescent sisters in addition to the sitter, then we need to address why the millions and millions of other boys who don't learn about sex from their parents and graduate high school with no sexual experience also aren't preying on young children.

I don't doubt that rates of sexual abuse are likely higher in Gothard followers than in typical families, but if we're going to lay his initial assaults (prior to JB and M knowing) at their door than we need to wonder why almost all boys raised in this environment aren't also predators.

I think he was predisposed to be a monster and JB and M created the perfect environment for that to flourish and hide for sure...but if we're going to say that's part of the cause then I disagree unless someone can show me how other teenage boys are equally at risk of this merely because their parents didn't educate them and lack of experience with girls their age.  

What alwaays infuriated me is Jim Bob saying "well, after out sex pest son molested 5 minors, we asked around our Gothard circle and turns out that in exploitative patriachal system this is quite a common occurence."

THAT DOESN'T JUSTIFY IT! and it sure as fuck isn't normal that a teen grabs and fondles his 4 year old sisters vagina!

When 1 out 5 women get raped during their lifetime, it is still a crime. It just tells you how toxic your environment is!

[Peaches-n-Beans]

1 hour ago, squiddysquid said:

What alwaays infuriated me is Jim Bob saying "well, after out sex pest son molested 5 minors, we asked around our Gothard circle and turns out that in exploitative patriachal system this is quite a common occurence."

THAT DOESN'T JUSTIFY IT! and it sure as fuck isn't normal that a teen grabs and fondles his 4 year old sisters vagina!

When 1 out 5 women get raped during their lifetime, it is still a crime. It just tells you how toxic your environment is!

I don't think Jimbob understands how that actually made it worse not better... 

 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

3 hours ago, Born Skeptic said:

I am not attempting to defend Josh.  But...If Josh's victims were ages 5 to 11, then Josh was 14 or 15.  While that doesn't make things dramatically better, it does take him out of the the "predator" category.    

By what criteria?

[Snarkasarus Rex]

2 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

By what criteria?

Exactly.  He may not meet the definition of a pedophile, but he’s still very much a predator. 

[Born Skeptic]

2 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

By what criteria?

The legal definition of "sexual predator".

Sexual Predator:  "a person who has committed a sexually violent offense and especially one who is likely (as because of a mental abnormality or a psychological disorder) to commit more sexual offenses."

Both the DSM-5 and the ICD-10 require that a person be at least 16 years of age when the incident takes place in order to be diagnosed as a sexual predator.  Josh was 14 or possibly 15 years of age when the last reported incident occurred.  He was at least a year younger when the first reported incidents took place.  Again, I am not defending him or excusing his behavior but he simply does not meet the definition of "sexual predator".  He also does not meet the definitions of "rapist" or "pedophile".  Is he a despicable human being?  Yes he is.

 

 

[Natalie22]

11 hours ago, Sullie06 said:

I work with adolescent sexual offenders or adolescent's with illegal sexual behaviors. I actually have a case where the offense is very similar to Josh's (offended against siblings. 5+ age gap with the offender being older) but they are not fundamentalists. The first time it happened the family brushed it under the rug. It happened again. This time the legal system and CPS got involved. The offender was convicted and removed from the home, the family all has to participate in very specific sexual abuse treatment and the offender was sentenced to a term of Probation supervision. The program is intensive and 12+ months long. CPS remains involved during the course. The parents were charged with inadequate guardianship. This is what Josh needed. What he did was predatory but where JB and M come into blame is how the situation was handled afterwords. Josh is to blame for his actions and they are to blame for their inaction.

It sounds like you have a difficult job to do, but a super important one.  Do you happen to know if there has been any research on what makes a juvenile offender offend in these situations? My attempt to search out sources has turned up a few, but not much