Josie and Kelton 6: So Boring I Couldn't Find a Funny Quote

[OrchidBlossom]

5 minutes ago, LilMissMetaphor said:

*cough* circumcision *cough*... 

*ducks*

I'm against circumcision but I wouldn't shame someone who didn't have the full picture of information about it (a lot of people think its more medically necessary than it is, for example) and made a decision based on the info they had at the time? I'm not sure what your point is here. People should do the best they can with what they know and once they know better, they should do better?

Oh god damn it I just remembered where I am and what this topic does around here! Second only to peanut butter! Do not do this to me pleaseeee

Edited September 27, 2020 by OrchidBlossom

[LilMissMetaphor]

Well yeah, it was half tongue in cheek because it's a dreaded topic of doom around here, right? Just what came to mind when I read your post.

[OrchidBlossom]

1 minute ago, LilMissMetaphor said:

Well yeah, it was half tongue in cheek because it's a dreaded topic of doom around here, right? Just what came to mind when I read your post.

Yesss I remembered after I responded what the joke was and... 

I'll see myself out haha my confusion is cleared and I BEG OF EVERYONE not to continue this discussion!

[LilMissMetaphor]

And I'll get back in my lane.  

[nausicaa]

14 hours ago, OrchidBlossom said:

The idea that cats don’t have a comparable quality of life inside is an absolute myth hence why I said you can create an equally engaging indoor space. It isn’t even hard. Cats are domesticated pets and IMO don’t belong outside unsupervised any more than most people let their dogs roam around freely. 

Just want to add another viewpoint to this:

I grew up in a semi-rural area and feral cats used to show up in our yard. One day a very sweet cat showed up who let us (the kids) pet her. We all fell in love with her and she kept coming back. One day she came back with three kittens in tow. My siblings and I of course freaked out, named her and all of the kittens, and loved them. 

So my mom, who didn't want pets and is seriously allergic to cats, now had four cats in her yard. She got all four neutered and spayed so she didn't have twenty cats in her yard a year later. Two of the kittens were taken by other people, but basically we were left with two pet cats. 

The cat and the one kitten we kept had nice long lives spending the day outside and slept inside our detached garage/barn with a heater and heated bed at night and during really bad weather. One cat lived to 15 and the other to 16 and both died of medical issues unrelated to being outdoors. I'm not anti-indoor cat at all, and I'm sure indoor cats can have full kitty-cat lives (and as I got older, I did worry about something happening to my cats especially the weirdo one), but my cats did have significantly more muscle tone than indoor cats and this was commented on by the vet, who also agreed they were probably happier this way since they had started out outdoors. 

I think there is a lot of cultural cross talk between urban and rural types in these conversations, with urbanites not understanding that their approach is somewhat culturally-based. Barn cats began because people needed mousers on their agricultural property to limit the rodent population that would otherwise ruin the feed sacks. And many people I know in rural areas have a pet cat that just sorta showed up one day, rather than selecting one from a shelter. I also knew people who let their (amiable) dogs roam freely, and still do. It's just a different approach to animals that is hard for me to explain, but I don't think is all bad. 

Edited September 27, 2020 by nausicaa

[Melissa1977]

19 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

I have never heard of declawing cats. That is horrible and I am actually shocked this exists and people openly talk about it. It sounds as if it should definitely be illegal. If you don’t want to deal with claws get a different pet like a fish or so.

To be true, I had never heard about hitting infants before reading Freejinger and discovered Pearls. This is a hard place to read sometimes!

[Natalie22]

3 hours ago, nausicaa said:

Just want to add another viewpoint to this:

I grew up in a semi-rural area and feral cats used to show up in our yard. One day a very sweet cat showed up who let us (the kids) pet her. We all fell in love with her and she kept coming back. One day she came back with three kittens in tow. My siblings and I of course freaked out, named her and all of the kittens, and loved them. 

So my mom, who didn't want pets and is seriously allergic to cats, now had four cats in her yard. She got all four neutered and spayed so she didn't have twenty cats in her yard a year later. Two of the kittens were taken by other people, but basically we were left with two pet cats. 

The cat and the one kitten we kept had nice long lives spending the day outside and slept inside our detached garage/barn with a heater and heated bed at night and during really bad weather. One cat lived to 15 and the other to 16 and both died of medical issues unrelated to being outdoors. I'm not anti-indoor cat at all, and I'm sure indoor cats can have full kitty-cat lives (and as I got older, I did worry about something happening to my cats especially the weirdo one), but my cats did have significantly more muscle tone than indoor cats and this was commented on by the vet, who also agreed they were probably happier this way since they had started out outdoors. 

I think there is a lot of cultural cross talk between urban and rural types in these conversations, with urbanites not understanding that their approach is somewhat culturally-based. Barn cats began because people needed mousers on their agricultural property to limit the rodent population that would otherwise ruin the feed sacks. And many people I know in rural areas have a pet cat that just sorta showed up one day, rather than selecting one from a shelter. I also knew people who let their (amiable) dogs roam freely, and still do. It's just a different approach to animals that is hard for me to explain, but I don't think is all bad. 

It's not all cultural cross talk; I grew up in a rural area.  I would count barn cats as working animals (although there should be some population control since they can get really large).  One thing to note about cats being great at keeping rodent populations in check; they're actually not that great.  They will catch other animals (reptiles, insects, birds) more frequently than rodents.  Cats are great of having rodents change their behaviour (i.e. be less visible, especially from a human point of view), but they won't actually change the numbers in a rodent population very much.  Also, it's not like urban areas are free from rodent problems; they can actually be more severe due to the amount of waste in such a dense area.

It's great that you spade and neutered those particular pets.  Even if you are going to have outdoor cats, if they start as strays at least you have controlled the population.  At the end of the day, if you have outdoor cats you are significantly contributing to the loss of native bird, reptile, and amphibian species.  There are other causes of these losses, but this is such a simple thing for people to change.

[Melissa1977]

1 hour ago, Natalie22 said:

One thing to note about cats being great at keeping rodent populations in check; they're actually not that great.  They will catch other animals (reptiles, insects, birds) more frequently than rodents.  Cats are great of having rodents change their behaviour (i.e. be less visible, especially from a human point of view),

 

It is true that cats are not that good with rodents! Dogs are far better, especially with rats. Rats are too big and dangerous for cats. And about mice, well-fed cats are not very interested in them, sometimes they chase mice for playing and let them scape when they got tired of playing. 

[OrchidBlossom]

7 hours ago, Natalie22 said:

It's not all cultural cross talk; I grew up in a rural area.  I would count barn cats as working animals (although there should be some population control since they can get really large).  One thing to note about cats being great at keeping rodent populations in check; they're actually not that great.  They will catch other animals (reptiles, insects, birds) more frequently than rodents.  Cats are great of having rodents change their behaviour (i.e. be less visible, especially from a human point of view), but they won't actually change the numbers in a rodent population very much.  Also, it's not like urban areas are free from rodent problems; they can actually be more severe due to the amount of waste in such a dense area.

It's great that you spade and neutered those particular pets.  Even if you are going to have outdoor cats, if they start as strays at least you have controlled the population.  At the end of the day, if you have outdoor cats you are significantly contributing to the loss of native bird, reptile, and amphibian species.  There are other causes of these losses, but this is such a simple thing for people to change.

I'm glad someone else said this. I live in a major city. Many, many corner delis, apartment buildings, even office buildings employ working cats or dogs. I would give the exact same advice to those owners (kitty employers?). Spay/neuter, microchip, and seriously consider whether it is worth letting them outside, because they often don't need to be in order to perform a function. I don't take issue with rescued ferals who are given working cat jobs through programs after evaluation. Because a professional has evaluated their ability to stay indoors, and because those cats are already grown and can't be changed, so allowing them outside is preferable to putting them down and allowing them outside in a working capacity is the best option. But people who get cats for domestic pets are not a part of this discussion, either.

@nausicaa I think people have done in the past and continue to do a lot of stuff that, truthfully, isn't best practice for caring for animals. But that doesn't make it right. I can't say blanket all people who let their pets outdoors are bad, obviously, many don't realize the potential danger to their animals and the potential danger that the animals pose (it is illegal to let dogs wander the way you describe though, in most places). But my point is that any animal owner, who adopts a domesticated cat for the purposes of being a pet, needs to be made aware of the significantly increased dangers to their cats and the significant damage those cats will do to the environment. One cat may not make much difference to the overall lizard population, but if everyone or even lots of people let their cats out, that's a problem! I think any responsible pet owner should at least ask themselves these questions and be open to accepting that the cultural common attitude (whether that culture is rural/urban, based on country, or some other cultural component) may be worth questioning. Like I've said, I can't judge every person and every situation with a broad brush but most cats belong indoors, will be safer and happier indoors, and will do less damage to the world at large indoors.

[princessmahina]

16 hours ago, Lgirlrocks said:

No hate please. When I was 3.5 my mom adopted a newborn kitten. Her name was Angel. The thing to do at the time was to declaw them so that’s what my mom did. She was an indoor cat that sometimes went on the porch when we were outside with her. She lived to be 21. Knowing what I know now I would not declaw a cat if I ever got one.

When I was a kid, we declawed all our cats. My parents had no idea it was so harmful. When we found out how bad it was, we stopped and none of the cats we’ve had since have had claws. I still feel so guilty about all the cats we declawed though. 

[OrchidBlossom]

2 minutes ago, princessmahina said:

When I was a kid, we declawed all our cats. My parents had no idea it was so harmful. When we found out how bad it was, we stopped and none of the cats we’ve had since have had claws. I still feel so guilty about all the cats we declawed though. 

You learned better and started to do better! That's all we can ask of ourselves. I think the dangers of declawing have only become clear relatively recently. 

[GuineaPigCourtship]

I'm a veterinarian. When I practiced in Illinois I probably declawed over 3 cats per month. Every single apartment in my area required it and it was commonly done. I grew to really dislike the blanket practice of declawing kittens when they were spayed or neutered, but really really disliked doing it for older cats. This was when I was a baby vet at my first job and my boss said I had to. I moved to New England where I'm originally from, and since being here 6+ years I think I've done maybe 2 declaws for medical reasons (owner medical issues). I don't think it should be illegal since it is very occasionally necessary but I also don't think it should be required anywhere and I think a long talk is needed about behavior and enrichment when owners bring it up. Most of them just need more information on the subject and they don't want to do it anymore. We have 3 cats with claws and although I will threaten them when they scratch my door frames, I'm not going to take their claws.

I hate outdoor cats. I don't like invasive species period, whether it is plants, bugs, or cats. It's hard to talk to people about it because many just don't care about the local wildlife as long as they don't have to clean a litterbox. It's lazy ownership when you can't be bothered to provide indoor enrichment for your pet and brush off the native wildlife massacre being caused by outdoor cats. I'm not normally very opinionated and one sided about stuff on here but seriously, shame on you if you think the ecosystem doesn't matter.

Edited September 28, 2020 by GuineaPigCourtship
Riffles

[AmericanRose]

Well, since we're talking about cats.
 

Spoiler

First Cat: My grandparents had a farm in the country, and one of their neighbours had tons of animals (dogs, horses, a goat, 2 rabbits, and too many cats to keep track of). One summer I discovered kittens in the barn, and was thrilled. Mama Cat did eventually move her kittens back home, but one kitten stayed. After some boys tried to drown her, my parents let her come home and she became my first indoor cat. She was spayed and declawed, and was never the same after that... she also had a life-long goal of getting outside (my dad was an easy mark). She lived to be 17.
Second Cat: My parents eventually moved us out to some land beside my grandparents', and one day a mama cat moved her 3 kittens to our backyard. And then one day I noticed her moving them back... so I took the remaining kitten and put her in the garage. When the neighbour daughter called about her, I cried and begged to be allowed to keep her. She was okay with it, since the other 2 kittens were going to a friend's farm (that also happened to be on a busy highway). She was spayed and allowed inside, but mom didn't declaw her so she "could have the option of putting her outside". Yeah, child me wasn't impressed with that. She lived to be 14, and she was my special kitty that I still miss.
Third Cat: The neighbour (yeah, the neighbour I keep mentioning is the same... they had a lot of cats) stopped by and asked if we were interested in a kitten because someone dumped a box of kittens at her work. I begged, mom eventually caved and that cat became hers. She was spayed and her claws were never trimmed - by the time mom got to it, she was too freaked out by it and of course her nails were extra long and sharp by then. She lived to be 20.

We also had 2 cats that wandered by and became our 'outside cats', but within 2 years one was poisoned and one was hit by a car. And then another kitty showed up that happened to be pregnant, and she had 4 kittens in our garage. They were all spayed/neutered, and my dad made a 'cat house' so they could be indoors at night. But within a year two had died (car engine, disappearance), 2 years after that one got really sick and was put to sleep, and another 2 years after that, the last kitten got really sick and was put to sleep. I don't know how old their mother cat was, but she was with us for 10 years.

All those experiences made me vow that as an adult, I would never have an outside cat. And of course, I moved to a city, where outside cats aren't too common, though I have seen a few (and it always breaks my heart). My own two were adopted from a cat rescue I volunteered at, and they're spayed / microchipped / vaccinated / licensed.

And on the topic of getting a kitten for a baby... I saw her post and was just like 'please don't'. Kittens get into everything, and I don't see them kitten-proofing - and if something happened I just imagine they would be like 'oh well'.

Edited September 28, 2020 by AmericanRose

[QuiverFullofBooks]

This discussion made me realize that an adult cat I adopted a couple of years ago is declawed. It hadn’t occurred to me that anyone would do that. 

[HereticHick]

If any Bates adopt a kitten, they should name it "Pinterest" or "Instagram" or "Prop" ?

 

And the more I look at the little Bates granddaughters in little sleeveless tops/sundresses, like this, the more I think that Kelli Jo and Michelle Duggar wouldn't have allowed their little girls to show so much skin. Seriously.

 

[OrchidBlossom]

14 hours ago, GuineaPigCourtship said:

I'm a veterinarian. When I practiced in Illinois I probably declawed over 3 cats per month. Every single apartment in my area required it and it was commonly done. I grew to really dislike the blanket practice of declawing kittens when they were spayed or neutered, but really really disliked doing it for older cats. This was when I was a baby vet at my first job and my boss said I had to. I moved to New England where I'm originally from, and since being here 6+ years I think I've done maybe 2 declaws for medical reasons (owner medical issues). I don't think it should be illegal since it is very occasionally necessary but I also don't think it should be required anywhere and I think a long talk is needed about behavior and enrichment when owners bring it up. Most of them just need more information on the subject and they don't want to do it anymore. We have 3 cats with claws and although I will threaten them when they scratch my door frames, I'm not going to take their claws.

 

Declawing is illegal in NY (or maybe just the city?) BUT there are exemptions for medical necessity. I think that’s the right way to go about it. I know most people, once they have info about it, don’t want to do it anymore, but unfortunately I’ve known more than one person who hasn’t changed their mind in face of the evidence. I don’t think those people should be allowed to have pets at all BUT since we can’t legislate/enforce that as easily, I think making declawing illegal outside of medical necessity is the best option. 
 

As an attorney I’m more interested in the law/enforcement/discouraging people from doing it aspect though. As a vet you would see more of it on a day to day basis so you’re input may be correct about not making it illegal. 

Edited September 28, 2020 by OrchidBlossom
Clarification.

[FiveAcres]

1 hour ago, OrchidBlossom said:

Declawing is illegal in NY (or maybe just the city?) BUT there are exemptions for medical necessity. I think that’s the right way to go about it. I know most people, once they have info about it, don’t want to do it anymore, but unfortunately I’ve known more than one person who hasn’t changed their mind in face of the evidence. I don’t think those people should be allowed to have pets at all BUT since we can’t legislate/enforce that as easily, I think making declawing illegal outside of medical necessity is the best option. 

As an attorney I’m more interested in the law/enforcement/discouraging people from doing it aspect though. As a vet you would see more of it on a day to day basis so you’re input may be correct about not making it illegal. 

I think education is the way to go. People in the US are overall much better about spay/neuter now than they were when I was a young adult. (Of course, it helps that rescues and shelters are having it done before placing pets, even when it is done younger than optimal for the pet in question.) 

I remember one impassioned plea to my sister to get a young cat spayed. She protested, "I've always been able to place all the kittens. I just want her to have one litter." I replied that meant kittens in shelters were being destroyed since her friends had no reason to go there for a rescue kitten. After that, my sister had her young female cats spayed before they had a litter. 

[OrchidBlossom]

6 hours ago, FiveAcres said:

I think education is the way to go. People in the US are overall much better about spay/neuter now than they were when I was a young adult. (Of course, it helps that rescues and shelters are having it done before placing pets, even when it is done younger than optimal for the pet in question.) 

I remember one impassioned plea to my sister to get a young cat spayed. She protested, "I've always been able to place all the kittens. I just want her to have one litter." I replied that meant kittens in shelters were being destroyed since her friends had no reason to go there for a rescue kitten. After that, my sister had her young female cats spayed before they had a litter. 

I totally think education is important and probably the first line of defense, I just worry about the percentage of the population who doesn’t care. Declawing cats is animal cruelty, IMO (and as defined in some places) so I think it should be illegal if someone does it. Or have your cats taken away, maybe? Or possibly something along the lines of legislated by the licensing board of vets, like declaw a cat lose your license. But idk much about that to know if it’s feasible. Unfortunately one side effect to being an attorney though is I do sometimes think in worst case scenarios! So although I’m always in favor of education on these subjects I can’t help but wonder how we protect the animals who fall into the hands of people who don’t care. That’s where it gets trickier, that like 1%, I think. 

[Melissa1977]

13 hours ago, HereticHick said:

And the more I look at the little Bates granddaughters in little sleeveless tops/sundresses, like this, the more I think that Kelli Jo and Michelle Duggar wouldn't have allowed their little girls to show so much skin

I can only see a bracelet that screams hazard! 

Regarding the outfits, it's true. It seems that Kelly could only "educate in modesty" Michaela and Erin. The others just ignore that part of their upbringing. Well, Tori is modest too, but I think she just does not care about fashion.

I find great the girls are deciding what to wear. If only they change in other aspects too...

[AussieKrissy]

Interested in what people think of their new hanging chairs in the lounge room. I can just see hanging points similar to how babies die with blind cords... am I being to dramatic? They have a lot of netting that If she falls wrong with her neck caught... 

[TheRadleyPorch]

I got my cat from a shelter when he was 11 years old (now 13), and he had been declawed on all four paws by his previous owner at 6 weeks old (I have the vet records). I would NOT choose to declaw a cat because I know it can result in health problems and pain, but fortunately my boy really has no ill effects from it and I'm sure he doesn't remember anything different. He's very agile and active and has great balance, perfect litter box use, never bites and is the most loving and affectionate baby, and you can touch his paws all day long and he'll just be blissed out because you're giving him attention. I think of declawing as a gamble, basically--some cats will be like mine and be perfectly healthy and happy, and some cats will suffer. So it's not a risk you want to take.

[Lgirlrocks]

josie finally got to wear the dress she wanted. To bad her mom made her us a white underlay for her wedding dress. This dress is beautiful and modest, well most people definition  of modest. 

[Jasmar]

We spent summers at Cannon Beach growing up. It’s just completely bizarre to see Bateseses there. It’s a very liberal, charming town.

ETA: My son and his gf were there about a month ago - and wore their masks even when on the beach, so this bugs me. Maybe it was just for the kissing shot that they didn’t wear them, I suppose…

Edited October 16, 2020 by Jasmar

[Melissa1977]

10 hours ago, Jasmar said:

We spent summers at Cannon Beach growing up. It’s just completely bizarre to see Bateseses there. It’s a very liberal, charming town.

ETA: My son and his gf were there about a month ago - and wore their masks even when on the beach, so this bugs me. Maybe it was just for the kissing shot that they didn’t wear them, I suppose…

I'm 100% pro masks, but wearing for an outdoors picture, when there is anybody near? Even if there is someone taking pics, it's safe.

Josie and Kelton wear masks in other pictures. I think they follow the rules (at least, in IG).

[BeccaGrim]

I think she was giving hints of a pregnancy in her IG story.  She had Willow playing with a pregnancy book.