Josiah and Lauren 15: The Drama Llama Rolls On

[JDuggs]

As long as we’re critiquing Lauren’s grammar, she misused who’s instead of whose. If she has decided that her mission is to spread the word of God through social media, she really should step up her grammar game. Also, it seems that grammar would be highly emphasized by home school educators as a basic core concept. It’s surprising how undervalued grammar appears through their writing.

 

[melon]

On 10/5/2019 at 11:50 PM, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

When she was younger, she was not one of the older girls, and not one of the younger girls, she was an all out tomboy where gender roles are strictly set. She wasn't into make up and "womenly" duties. She seemed more into things that are "male oriented" at least in their cult, she was interested in politics. She was very authoritative, like Jessa, she had a domineering personality, she seemed at ease taking charge of situation and being in charge, and that isn't something women are allowed. But unlike Jessa she wasn't overly feminine.  She also seemed to not buy into the BS her parents her selling them, she even said so at Joe's wedding that it was Joe, that convicted her that their parents faith was the right path, she was ready to find her own path, and other siblings stopped her.  She was also the 1st sibling given to a sister mom, she didn't have the connection to her parents the older siblings had. 

She didn't have a built in sibling buddy like her other sibligns did, There are 19 kids so one of them was going to be the odd one out, 10 boys and 9 girls so one of the girls was going to be the extra one, and it was her, and because of her position in the birth order she was it. 

Not sure what it is but I do think it is her placement in the family, not having a close sister and her personality that made her seem to me like she was just over it.  I also think her and Si had personalities that don't adhere to the cult , they needed extra enforcement to keep them in the cult, and if they had been left unmarried for too long, they would have left the cult to live a more mainstream life. This is all just my opinion, don't think Joy will leave anymore, I think being given to Austin, has really cemented her in the koolaid lifestyle and I now think she is one most ingrained in the cult of all the adult kids with the exception of Jana and Joe. 

 

Joy was Jill's buddy,and then JB and Michelle added more buddies,and there were "buddy teams".

[FreeTheScapegoats]

First time poster: I was wondering if one of the reasons why Lauren falls so easily into projecting her grief unto her unborn daughter is that, for her, most of the parenting memories are still abstract concepts. She’s never woken up in the middle of the night to feed her own kid, ditto with changing diapers, playing with them or homeschooling. I could be wrong, I’ve never been pregnant, but maybe there’s a bit of that into play. The only difference for her right now between Asa and her daughter (other than pregnancy stages and baby kicks) is that there are things she’ll never do with one kid and things she’ll do with another. Obviously it doesn’t excuse everything she’s done and I’m still worried about all the guilt her daughter will feel once she rationalizes that “Asa died so [she] could be born”.

[Glasgowghirl]

Her behaviour is worrying me, she's young and hopefully things do get better once her baby is here. I have sympathy for her and Josiah losing a baby but her behaviour the past few months has at times pushed a lot of boundaries and when you take in to consideration that both her sister in law and mother in law have lost children and then had to deliver them, she doesn't seem to care that her behaviour could be upsetting to them, especially Joy and Austin, they only recently lost Annabell and have already had to endure baby shower and the birth of Daxton, in the next few weeks Lauren, Anna and Kendra will have their daughter's followed by Abbie. 

[sixcatatty]

2 hours ago, Glasgowghirl said:

Her behaviour is worrying me, she's young and hopefully things do get better once her baby is here. I have sympathy for her and Josiah losing a baby but her behaviour the past few months has at times pushed a lot of boundaries and when you take in to consideration that both her sister in law and mother in law have lost children and then had to deliver them, she doesn't seem to care that her behaviour could be upsetting to them, especially Joy and Austin, they only recently lost Annabell and have already had to endure baby shower and the birth of Daxton, in the next few weeks Lauren, Anna and Kendra will have their daughter's followed by Abbie. 

What pissed me off--again--is saying "the Lord blessed" them with the baby coming, my five miscarriages mean I'm not a good Christian and don't deserve/haven't been blessed.

I don't have the blessing of children but I've been blessed. He blessed me with my husband, who is the finest man I've ever known. He blessed me with talents with which to do my job. He blessed me by calling me to the job I love. Two days ago, He blessed with me once again with the ability to get up from a sitting position without help after a July diagnosis of lumbar damage and a summer spent relying on my husband to get up from everywhere because I was in so much pain, so stiff, so off-balance and numb from ankle to foot.

TLDR: I'm not her type of Christian nor do I want to be. My Bible says love one another with no modifiers after the word another.

[Perrierwithlemon]

2 hours ago, Glasgowghirl said:

she doesn't seem to care that her behaviour could be upsetting to them, especially Joy and Austin

Yeah, to me this is very disturbing -- her apparent disregard for Joy and others like her. But again, she is only 20 years old, and I have a feeling that a miscarriage might be one of her hardest moments. She has been really sheltered, and probably has not had too much life experience yet.

I'm just trying to wrap my head around how someone could be so insensitive to her sister in law (Joy), her future daughter, and to possible followers who have also gone through losing a child. But maybe from her perspective she is "helping" those mothers who have lost their babies. So, attempting to understand things from Lauren's perspective, I have two theories:

1. Perhaps she views that one staged baby clothes picture as some sort of dedication, recognition, or awareness post dedicated to those mothers. As twisted as this seems, maybe she believes her words are encouraging and "helps" those mothers to feel "recognized" as mothers, despite their loss(es). 
2. OR perhaps she feels that since she is on the other side of a miscarriage, her stormy "trial" from God is over.* Now she's like some "expert" to whom others can look and feel that if God can bring her through that and "re-bless" her with a "rainbow baby," perhaps He can for them too. She would probably think that her Instagram is also the perfect platform to reach people this way. 

I've always hated the way they throw around the word "blessed" and how they call children "blessings". But @sixcatatty made a really good point and I agree with her wholeheartedly. 

* Personally, I do not think that God is like this. I believe that He is a very personal god and blesses people in ways that are specific to them. There is no "one-size-fits-all" blessing, so I'd appreciate it if people like the Duggars stopped acting like that.

[sixcatatty]

46 minutes ago, Perrierwithlemon said:

Yeah, to me this is very disturbing -- her apparent disregard for Joy and others like her. But again, she is only 20 years old, and I have a feeling that a miscarriage might be one of her hardest moments. She has been really sheltered, and probably has not had too much life experience yet.

I'm just trying to wrap my head around how someone could be so insensitive to her sister in law (Joy), her future daughter, and to possible followers who have also gone through losing a child. But maybe from her perspective she is "helping" those mothers who have lost their babies. So, attempting to understand things from Lauren's perspective, I have two theories:

1. Perhaps she views that one staged baby clothes picture as some sort of dedication, recognition, or awareness post dedicated to those mothers. As twisted as this seems, maybe she believes her words are encouraging and "helps" those mothers to feel "recognized" as mothers, despite their loss(es). 
2. OR perhaps she feels that since she is on the other side of a miscarriage, her stormy "trial" from God is over.* Now she's like some "expert" to whom others can look and feel that if God can bring her through that and "re-bless" her with a "rainbow baby," perhaps He can for them too. She would probably think that her Instagram is also the perfect platform to reach people this way. 

I've always hated the way they throw around the word "blessed" and how they call children "blessings". But @sixcatatty made a really good point and I agree with her wholeheartedly. 

* Personally, I do not think that God is like this. I believe that He is a very personal god and blesses people in ways that are specific to them. There is no "one-size-fits-all" blessing, so I'd appreciate it if people like the Duggars stopped acting like that.

The rational part of my brain hopes these are the reasons why she posted the picture and answered the way she did.

The curmudgeonly part of my brain says I don't need her fucking recognition as a mother. I *know* I am. I also know that while we don't have living children, my husband and I have found ways to be parental. The curmudgeonly part of my brain says no 20 year old is an "expert" on anything, let alone "trials from God." Five years ago this month, I didn't know whether I was going to be living in 2015. I didn't have cancer but it changed my husband and me. Fifteen years ago this month, my husband had just begun fifteen months in Kuwait and Iraq and I was in this house hearing the silence and waking up screaming from nightmares. Fourteen years ago this month, I was looking forward to him coming home sometime before Thanksgiving. That experience changed both of us, too.

I don't need her fucking Instagram pulpit either.

Damn, didn't realize I was so angry but God save me from "perfect Christians" who think because I believe differently, I'm bound for hell.

I'm-a watch some football now.

[justodd]

Am I the only one wondering if this was maybe a really misguided attempt at showing sympathy for Joy? I might be giving Lauren too much credit, but if I squint, I can see how she might have thought addressing loss as Anabell’s due date approaches may have been an encouragement. (These people don’t see a lot of things the way most people do, so I sometimes try my hand at mental gymnastics to try and figure them out)

[Peaches-n-Beans]

14 minutes ago, justodd said:

Am I the only one wondering if this was maybe a really misguided attempt at showing sympathy for Joy? I might be giving Lauren too much credit, but if I squint, I can see how she might have thought addressing loss as Anabell’s due date approaches may have been an encouragement. (These people don’t see a lot of things the way most people do, so I sometimes try my hand at mental gymnastics to try and figure them out)

I'm definitely disagreeing with you on that one. I really don't think Lauren has the ability to think that far out of herself. I'm not trying to be unnecessarily mean or anything but from what we've seen in the past few months from her I genuinely don't think she has the emotional capacity to offer her support in that way. And honestly, it might just make Joy feel worse seeing that post? Anabell's due date is approaching, and oh look here's this empty basket with baby girl clothes and toys posted by her sister in law (who's expecting a living healthy baby girl soon) and some post essentially equating their losses when said sister in law lost a baby in the first trimester and Joy had to go through a likely traumatic delivery and hold her dead infant. Then that same sister in law had her sit through a baby shower for her baby girl and is now posting this on instagram. 

Now I've never been pregnant, am not ready to be pregnant and likely never will be pregnant. So I can't say for sure this is how Joy would feel, but I don't think seeing an empty baby basket full of girls things when you've lost your baby girl can feel good or supportive. 

[justodd]

4 minutes ago, Peaches-n-Beans said:

I'm definitely disagreeing with you on that one. I really don't think Lauren has the ability to think that far out of herself. I'm not trying to be unnecessarily mean or anything but from what we've seen in the past few months from her I genuinely don't think she has the emotional capacity to offer her support in that way. And honestly, it might just make Joy feel worse seeing that post? Anabell's due date is approaching, and oh look here's this empty basket with baby girl clothes and toys posted by her sister in law (who's expecting a living healthy baby girl soon) and some post essentially equating their losses when said sister in law lost a baby in the first trimester and Joy had to go through a likely traumatic delivery and hold her dead infant. Then that same sister in law had her sit through a baby shower for her baby girl and is now posting this on instagram. 

Now I've never been pregnant, am not ready to be pregnant and likely never will be pregnant. So I can't say for sure this is how Joy would feel, but I don't think seeing an empty baby basket full of girls things when you've lost your baby girl can feel good or supportive. 

To be clear, I’m not saying *I* think it was in any way a good idea. If anything, I’d say her lack of perspective and inability to get outside her own head might explain why *she* thought it was a good idea. She’s shown time and time again to be a single minded person with extremely poor judgment, so I don’t see why it’s so far fetched to think that in the spaghetti jumble that is her thought process, she might have thought it was appropriate. 

I’m attempting to offer a possible explanation- not an excuse.

[Dandruff]

I think that baby girl is going to be living in the shadow of her almost-sibling, and I feel for her.  Asa (I'm guessing they wanted a boy) didn't get to be born, there was no original sin to be broken, and "he'll" never disappoint.  It's one thing if Lauren chooses to be forever burdened by the loss.  It's another if her daughter ends up in the continual company of a sibling she can't relate to.  I hope Lauren can get some help soon or, at the least, learn when to keep certain thoughts to herself.

[LacyMay]

I think Lauren sees herself as sort of an authority on pregnancy loss now and she's trying to make her loss and her grief "mean something" by speaking about loss and "being an encouragement" for other women who have experienced loss. Which is often something I would really support, people who have experienced that type of loss and grief first hand are oftentimes uniquely equipt to help others. 

The problem is that Lauren doesn't seem to have processed her loss enough to use it in a way to help others, her posts often seem disingenuous and almost have an undertone of *see me* *see my loss* as opposed to *I see you, I see your loss* She also seems to lack the critical thinking skills needed to see her loss through the lens of the loss of another person, as has been discussed in her mind she is *just as "qualified"* to provide support as Joy or Michelle who had to deliver the children they lost or Erin Payne who experienced multiple miscarriages. She doesn't seem to differentiate much between her singular very early term loss and a nearly full term loss. She believes that she walked the same path and lived the same experience. 

I don't think she has a malicious intent I also don't think that she was speaking to Joy in particular. I think she views this as almost a "calling" from God to use her loss as an encouragement. Because she's so desperate to make sense of it. In her mind she did everything right so why else would God do this? 

[Melissa1977]

13 hours ago, FreeTheScapegoats said:

First time poster: I was wondering if one of the reasons why Lauren falls so easily into projecting her grief unto her unborn daughter is that, for her, most of the parenting memories are still abstract concepts. She’s never woken up in the middle of the night to feed her own kid, ditto with changing diapers, playing with them or homeschooling. I could be wrong, I’ve never been pregnant, but maybe there’s a bit of that into play. The only difference for her right now between Asa and her daughter (other than pregnancy stages and baby kicks) is that there are things she’ll never do with one kid and things she’ll do with another. Obviously it doesn’t excuse everything she’s done and I’m still worried about all the guilt her daughter will feel once she rationalizes that “Asa died so [she] could be born”.

While I'm not fundie, being a mother was my greatest dream. My happiness when I knew I was pregnant was absolute. I knew it was only a bunch of cells, but still imagined it was a full formed baby and talked to him. Etc. So in pregnancy terms, I was like a fundie woman (wow!!!). But even in this case, I knew I wasn't a mother yet. There was no baby I could touch and see. And considering how Erin, Whitney, Michelle, Anna... have showed their grief and have talked about their miscarriages, they didn't saw their babies in utero like they see their born kids. Lauren is different and taking things to another level, too much even for a fundie. 

[Peaches-n-Beans]

9 hours ago, justodd said:

To be clear, I’m not saying *I* think it was in any way a good idea. If anything, I’d say her lack of perspective and inability to get outside her own head might explain why *she* thought it was a good idea. She’s shown time and time again to be a single minded person with extremely poor judgment, so I don’t see why it’s so far fetched to think that in the spaghetti jumble that is her thought process, she might have thought it was appropriate. 

I’m attempting to offer a possible explanation- not an excuse.

Oh I completely understand, and I’m sorry if I came off as thinking you thought it was a good idea, I just don’t personally think that Lauren had the empathetic capacity to even think about how anabells due date is approaching and such.

[just_ordinary]

21 hours ago, Bad Wolf said:

If you take out " my husband" , then the "me" is obvious. You wouldn't say, "the Lord blessed I". Well, only if you're SOTDRT educated.

Oh I know how it works, but this way of speaking comes up so so much in mainstream media that I am baffled.

[CarrotCake]

10 hours ago, Dandruff said:

I think that baby girl is going to be living in the shadow of her almost-sibling, and I feel for her.  Asa (I'm guessing they wanted a boy) didn't get to be born, there was no original sin to be broken, and "he'll" never disappoint.  It's one thing if Lauren chooses to be forever burdened by the loss.  It's another if her daughter ends up in the continual company of a sibling she can't relate to.  I hope Lauren can get some help soon or, at the least, learn when to keep certain thoughts to herself.

The worst is that the girl was conceived when Lauren would still have been pregnant with Asa. So if Asa got to be born, the girl would not have existed.

If Lauren gives the vibe that she wishes Asa was there, it means that she prefers Asa over the girl because in that case, the girl would not be there.

[Lizzybet]

28 minutes ago, CarrotCake said:

The worst is that the girl was conceived when Lauren would still have been pregnant with Asa. So if Asa got to be born, the girl would not have existed.

If Lauren gives the vibe that she wishes Asa was there, it means that she prefers Asa over the girl because in that case, the girl would not be there.

I don’t know about that, I think fundies believe that there are children that they are going to be gifted with by God and that this little girl would have existed anyway. She just would’ve arrived a bit later.

[Bobology]

14 hours ago, justodd said:

so I don’t see why it’s so far fetched to think that in the spaghetti jumble that is her thought process,

Such a graphic and succinct way of describing Lauren and many people, really. The Duggars, particularly, seem to have grown up with an awful lot of judgment and oppression, causing the G2s to suppress and repress their actual feelings and thoughts, to the point of sometimes not even knowing what is acceptable to their parents or their god. They are always having to second guess themselves... "I feel this way... wait, should I feel this way? Maybe it's wrong to feel this way. Did the devil make me feel this way? How should I feel that would please god or my parents? I thought I was a good person, I'm trying so hard to be a good person, why do I feel this way? Something must be wrong with me." A spaghetti jumble of thought processes, for sure.

It all reminds me of Joe and Kendra's engagement (I think) photo shoot, when Joe was standing awkwardly by Kendra not knowing what to do with his arms and hands. He even looked off camera and asked someone (one of the parents, I'm sure,) "Can I do this? or Can I touch her here?" something like that. Those parents have committed atrocious acts upon their children.

And while I don't know any of this with certainty regarding the Duggar kids, I've seen it in life with others. It doesn't have to be from a fundie point of view, it can also be caused by a narcissistic-type* of parent. 

*not used as a diagnostic term, but as a description of the type.

Edited October 14, 2019 by Bobology
addendum

[Four is Enough]

I have a slightly different idea about Lauren. I think she's missing her place as the "first" of her family. Wasn't she the oldest sibling? Now,she's battling for position in the Duggar clan. I think she wants to be THE Spokes-Duggar. To that end, she's trying to out-Duggar the Duggars... be the Duggariest Duggar of them all.

If that's true, Rufus help us.

 

Not discounting that this might me severe and un helped grieving.. but I just wonder...

[JesSky03]

I really don't think its fair for anyone to use their own loss as a litmus test against Lauren' s own coping with her loss. I see lots of " I had a miscarriage but I never felt..." "I never thought of my losses as xx..." "I never said anything like that when I had a loss..." "I never did that while pregnant...", etc. Everyone grieves differently. I actually see a lot of my own struggle with miscarriage in Lauren. If you go back to my social media from 4 years ago its pretty depressing, I clearly was having a very hard time but I felt like I had to keep the memory of my baby alive because the rest of the world had moved on while I was still reeling from it all. I had trouble conceiving after my first loss and at the time I thought it was the worst thing ever and that I would find healing if only I could just get pregnant again but I now realize that the waiting was a blessing in disguise. I would not have coped well with a pregnancy quickly after my miscarriage. I had never experienced a traumatic event like that before- where my whole life was changed and then changed again in a matter of months; had I gotten pregnant again that first year after my loss I likely would have been a lot like Lauren. I was in a healthier place when I lost my 2nd, but when I conceived my 3rd just 2 months later it was still tough coming to terms with a healthy pregnancy. I've already posted about how I had a breakdown a week before my son was born because I was feeling so guilty that this baby got to live while the others did not- and yes I felt that way event though I knew I couldn't be having the baby I was having without having lost at least the 2nd one, and possible even the first. 

Now that I have a living son do I think of my miscarriages differently? Absolutely, but while I was pregnant there wasn't much of a difference between the ones I lost and the one I was about to have. Lauren is still actively grieving- there is no "appropriate" time frame for grief, and she is still pregnant. She hasn't been able to experience holding her baby in her arms and being responsible 24/7 for a living, breathing human. She hasn't yet felt that all consuming love you feel when looking at your child to realize just how different it truly is from that love you feel while pregnant.

So anyway, while I think some of the things she has done have been over the top, she still gets a pass from me. For what its worth I didn't think her recent IG post was all that bad and is pretty fitting considering it is Pregnancy/Infant loss awareness month. I didn't get a sense of her being insensitive to Joy or anyone else- it was pretty in line with the other loss posts I've seen this month. If she keeps it up long after baby is born I would start to question her mental health, but I think there is still a lot of unnecessary harshness aimed at Lauren and unfair comparisons to one's own losses. I should probably just stay out of Lauren threads for the time being- I feel like I'm probably repeating myself and I've given my perspective before but its kind of hard when it seems like people are using Lauren's miscarriage as just another thing to snark on every chance they get. 

 

[justodd]

9 hours ago, LacyMay said:

I think Lauren sees herself as sort of an authority on pregnancy loss now and she's trying to make her loss and her grief "mean something" by speaking about loss and "being an encouragement" for other women who have experienced loss. Which is often something I would really support, people who have experienced that type of loss and grief first hand are oftentimes uniquely equipt to help others. 

The problem is that Lauren doesn't seem to have processed her loss enough to use it in a way to help others, her posts often seem disingenuous and almost have an undertone of *see me* *see my loss* as opposed to *I see you, I see your loss* She also seems to lack the critical thinking skills needed to see her loss through the lens of the loss of another person, as has been discussed in her mind she is *just as "qualified"* to provide support as Joy or Michelle who had to deliver the children they lost or Erin Payne who experienced multiple miscarriages. She doesn't seem to differentiate much between her singular very early term loss and a nearly full term loss. She believes that she walked the same path and lived the same experience. 

I don't think she has a malicious intent I also don't think that she was speaking to Joy in particular. I think she views this as almost a "calling" from God to use her loss as an encouragement. Because she's so desperate to make sense of it. In her mind she did everything right so why else would God do this? 

Thank you! This is so much what I was trying to say, but couldn’t find the right words. 

[Dandruff]

2 hours ago, Four is Enough said:

I have a slightly different idea about Lauren. I think she's missing her place as the "first" of her family. Wasn't she the oldest sibling? Now,she's battling for position in the Duggar clan. I think she wants to be THE Spokes-Duggar. To that end, she's trying to out-Duggar the Duggars... be the Duggariest Duggar of them all.

If so, I suspect she's getting on the nerves of at least a few Duggars.  Don't know how much overlap there might be between her repeated acknowledgements of Asa and possibly wanting to be front and center.  If the family wasn't "famous" would she still be openly reacting to the miscarriage as she is?

I'm pretty sure that we'll still be hearing about Asa after the baby is born, but I hope she can refocus on the baby.

[Glasgowghirl]

I do think Lauren need counseling and still feel for especially if she is depressed. Even if her posts are trying to be helpful to others they are definitely not coming across that way, the same way Jill's posts sometimes miss the mark. If Joy hadn't just lost Annabell, her posts wouldn't annoy me half as much as they do. I couldn't imagine posting stuff like that while a family member has just suffered a loss and may not want to be reminded of it on social media all the time. Joy since she lost Annabell had posted about doing things with family and thanked them when they have helped her out in any way. Lauren may be sympathetic to her more off social media but it's not appearing that she is on here.

[freshlemonade]

If Lauren's depression is actually discussed on the next season of CO, it will be interesting to hear what they have to say.  I don't think this is a topic they've ever broached on the shows.  

Edited October 14, 2019 by freshlemonade
added Lauren's name

[Timetostoplurking]

I’m from a generation that didn’t grow up with social media.  So for me, all of Lauren’s public “messages” and IG pictures just seems like an ego stroke opportunity, more than actual grieving.  I have no doubt that she is grieving, it just the “publicness” that makes me go WTF.  I can’t imagine how words from strangers online can make up for kindness from your family and friends. I guess I’m a more private person than Lauren.