Josiah and Lauren 15: The Drama Llama Rolls On

[DLA]

I think it will be interesting to see what she will do or feel after the birth.

Now she is doing all these things without ever holding a baby of her own in her arms. I can see it going either way, with her seeing the miscarriage in a different light once she has an actual baby to care for and love. Or it turns out mothering is harder than she thinks and Asa will always stand above this baby girl.

It is sad that she doesn't have access to mental health care, besides Jesus.

[Four is Enough]

Was it ever told why they named and assigned a sex to this baby? They can't have known it was male.

[Buzzard]

9 minutes ago, Four is Enough said:

Was it ever told why they named and assigned a sex to this baby? They can't have known it was male.

The Duggars have "Caleb," so its not out of the ordinary for them to name and sex their losses.

[browngrl]

9 minutes ago, Four is Enough said:

Was it ever told why they named and assigned a sex to this baby? They can't have known it was male.

disclaimer:  I have no idea how far along she was or what sort of screening/testing she had

but assuming the gestational age was < 5 weeks the only way she could have known the sex of the baby would have been via pre implantation genetic testing or pathology testing of the products of conception.  I doubt she had either so she was either along far enough to have non invasive prenatal testing (usually done after 10 weeks) or she was much farther along and at a stage where the sex can be determined (I can often tell at the 11- 14 week ultrasound and nearly always tell at the 18 -24 week ultrasound) or the sex is something she assumed. 

 

 

[Dandruff]

24 minutes ago, Four is Enough said:

Was it ever told why they named and assigned a sex to this baby? They can't have known it was male.

My guess is they wanted a boy.

I find it vaguely disturbing that their lost child is regularly referred to by name but their daughter isn't.  I know some parents prefer to wait until a baby is born to announce the name but, in this case (and IMO), it seems to personify their miscarriage more than the baby who's soon to be born.

[DLA]

I think she assumed the sex.

I have seen this before, especially  with people who believe the baby is a complete person from the moment of conception.

[VBOY9977]

JB and Michelle assumed J’caleb’s sex, so I think SiRen did it too. 

[HeadshipRegent]

Lauren is the perfect fundie wife and she wanted the perfect fundie first child to be a son. 

[Smee]

On 10/17/2019 at 8:16 AM, nolongerIFBx said:

I have seen quite a few infant loss awareness posts from others as October 15 is National Pregnancy and Infant Loss Remembrance Day. Not saying that I don't think that Lauren might be in need of some professional help but this particular post wasn't that unusual given the date (although if that is a photo that she took recently rather than at the time of her loss or a stock photo, yikes, very morbid!)

Yes, this. It’s a time many women are acknowledging loss and although I side-eye a lot of what Lauren says, she gets a pass for this one. Also, if her miscarriage was in October last year, the anniversary of the loss would probably have contributed to her desire to say something.  I think it’s a bit off to use baby things clearly purchased for THIS baby, but if she lost the first pregnancy at 5 weeks or so, it’s fair to assume she didn’t have any baby clothes or baskets or whatever from that pregnancy.

The Asa cake I do think is way too much. And that post from Jessa about their shared due date was a thousand times more sensitive to Lauren than Lauren has been to Joy.

I just went back through Lauren’s Instagram and found two very short posts, out of everything since they announced, where she says something positive and excited about her pregnancy without mentioning her miscarriage. I think I’d be less concerned about all the times she references her grief and depression (because loss is awful and I sympathise with anyone who has suffered) if I also saw more posts where she seemed genuinely happy to be carrying this child. Instead it’s “blessed, but we will always remember...” or “sad about Asa, but we have this rainbow”. She’s unable to consider this pregnancy and child just as itself, and while it’s probably not uncommon following a loss, it still makes me sad for their daughter.

What’s the Spanish word for rainbow? Maybe that will be the middle name.

 

[MathQueen]

“Arco iris” is Spanish for “rainbow”. So, Iris as a middle name, perhaps.

[SweetJuly]

I think we're all expecting Milagro to be the middle name as it appears to be a family thing on Lauren's side.

So maybe Iris Milagro? It does have a nice ring to it.

[OldFadedStar]

Laurens miscarriage is going to be the counting on equivalent of Meri being catfished. It seems they can’t have a storyline with Lauren without discussing the miscarriage. Maybe that will change later in the season... we will see

[neurogirl]

Someone on reddit did have an interesting note that at first, neither Lauren nor Josiah mentioned the miscarriage. Then once people started questioning if they weren't having sex (at all or correctly) or possibly preventing, they posted about it  publicly (Feb 11). That post got a HUGE amount of likes and comments. Their Valentine's Day post didn't mention the loss, nor did the next two posts, but Lauren thanked everyone for their support March 24 (again, with a lot of likes/comments). Then the miscarriage wasn't mentioned again (still nameless, genderless) until Josiah's post to Lauren on Mother's Day (May 11).

May 20th they announced the 2nd pregnancy, with a gray balloon in the picture for "Asa," once again with out any gender mention.  To me, it seemed like a Biblical "gender neutral" name like the Bates have with their miscarried pregnancies who were given hymn names. "angel baby" was mentioned in almost every post about the new pregnancy (and their anniversary, and Grandma Mary's death) except, surprisingly, the gender reveal announcement. Finally, the baby shower post with the cake was the first mention of "big bro Asa." Asa (said Ay-saw I think) was a King of Judah who was fairly righteous and "rooted out idolatry." So it does make sense that Lauren and Josiah, who at least try to appear pious, would give their first born a righteous king name. 

But it's also very interesting that the talk about the miscarriage really seemed to ramp up in an opposite fashion than one might expect. The uncharitable reason could of course be that Lauren is attention seeking. The kinder explanation could be that Lauren NEEDS THERAPY (I think this is screamingly obvious) and the likes/comments really did help her feel validated in her emotions and not alone. 

Also.

I also think Lauren's comment about "more downs than ups in this first year of marriage" that received a lot of criticism can be related, that the loss gives her a reason to have had a hard first year (which could have been "just" a hard transition to married life and all that entails for fundie women), and I think that's an excellent point. At the risk of getting too personal (RAMBLING ALERT), I can also relate. I didn't have a miscarriage, but my and my husband's first year of marriage was pretty shitty. We were on such high coming off the wedding (beautiful, amazing, perfect day) and romantic honeymoon. I was swept off my feet. We had been together for 6 years (and lived together with a roommate for two) and I didn't have doubts about our future. Then we moved into a one bedroom just the two of the us for the first time (with no roommates), he started a new job, and his father had a prolonged health scare for months in which he very nearly died a couple times. My husband coped unhealthily with all this stress, and I was also stressed by all this and by grad school, and was not as understanding as I should've been.  We withdrew from each other and the next spring when everything went more or less back to normal we realized we had become distant and were having awful conversations about to fix our marriage which was LESS THAN A YEAR OLD. It was heartbreaking. We are doing much much better now, but still going to try therapy, as we have returned to a comfortable intellectual snuggly love, but one that feels more aged than it should (not romantic/passionate, and we are in our 20s and have only been married a year). I would have given anything to have had ONE reason that could be "fixed" or at least been the sole thing to blame for my relationship, which had been the most secure thing in my life for years, now feeling shaky. Especially since people make jokes about newlyweds all the time and I felt like we were doomed if our first year, which should've been spent magically between the sheets, was just really shitty.

TLDR; Lauren's commenting about the miscarriage has increased over the year and could be a result of the attention she gets (seen charitably or uncharitably). I hope she treats her very present baby girl with as much love and attention. The first year of marriage CAN be really hard without a tragic event (living together, different expectations for routines and duties, sex), and society frequently says otherwise, making it hurt worse. 

Edited October 22, 2019 by neurogirl

[Wolf in Sheeples’ Clothing]

4 hours ago, neurogirl said:

 Finally, the baby shower post with the cake was the first mention of "big bro Asa." Asa (said Ay-saw I think) was a King of Judah who was fairly righteous and "rooted out idolatry."

Yes. That’s how it’s said. I was friends with an Asa while in school. 

Edited October 23, 2019 by Wolf in Sheeples’ Clothing

[coexist]

The Asa I know pronounces his "AY-suh" and it's the only way I've ever heard it in church (when I was still religious), but then I've also heard the Biblical character/book of Job pronounced as both "Joeb" (the way I'm used to) and "Job" (when traveling to churches in other regions), so I guess the same could be true for Asa.

[LacyMay]

7 hours ago, neurogirl said:

Also.

I also think Lauren's comment about "more downs than ups in this first year of marriage" that received a lot of criticism can be related, that the loss gives her a reason to have had a hard first year (which could have been "just" a hard transition to married life and all that entails for fundie women), and I think that's an excellent point. At the risk of getting too personal (RAMBLING ALERT), I can also relate. I didn't have a miscarriage, but my and my husband's first year of marriage was pretty shitty.

Marriage is HARD the first year of marriage can be hugely challenging. Add in the loss of a pregnancy, loss of a grandmother and the usual adjustments that come with living together for the first time and saying they had more downs makes sense. 

I wish more people would talk about how challenging marriage especially early marriage is. I know when we struggled and all I saw was shining happy couples it made me feel like a huge failure. 

[SweetJuly]

For my husband and me, the first 3 years of our marriage were awesome, some of the best years of our lives in every aspect.

What had been an adjustment, however, had been moving in together. We moved in together after we got engaged, a bit more than a year after we had started dating and about a year before we got married. The first few months, in which my mother had to undergo a life-altering surgery, I started working and my husband finished his Master's degree, were quite stressful in themselves.

However, what stands out in my memory is the 'stress' of settling in together. Getting used to being around one another almost constantly, discovering how the other person leads their daily life (and the tiny ways that can annoy you), negotiating the mundane differences in needs and preferences like staying up late or getting up early, what to eat when,.... All this was much harder and more stressful than expected, even for my husband who is the sweetest most amenable person I have ever met.

Once our wedding rolled around all this had been overcome and we set out for a few really wonderful years.

We've had a rather demanding time in the last 2 years - life-threatening illness in my family, the birth of our daughter, huge stress at work and professional changes, some uncertainty whether we will stay in Brussels or move,... We've definitely been more of a cuddly couple as of late.

I don't think it's marriage that is hard, it's being in a committed relationship and trying to weather every storm that life throws at you together. Life can get tough. Sometimes it's enough to just carry on and make it through the hard times. Do make sure to reconnect and enjoy one another again once the sun comes back out.

 

@neurogirl I think your analysis of Lauren is spot-on.

As for your relationship, it sounds like you had multiple stressors going on in your first year of marriage. It would be absolutely normal that you don't have the energy to be all googly-eyed Duggar newlywed, and I think it's great that you still have a "comfortable intellectual snuggly love" despite everything you've been through lately. Please don't think this means that your relationship is "shaky" - friendship and companionship are the very basis of a committed long-term relationship. If you and your husband were happy with the situation, I'd say screw society and its explicit or implicit expectations. It's your marriage, nobody else's, and if it works for you then all is well.

However, it sounds like you are a bit unhappy with the situation, and I think it's great that you both are willing to work on improving things. I wish you all the best, and send you much love. You sound like a lovely, very bright and kind person, and I'm sure you two can make it work.

 

 

[IReallyAmHopewell]

Today an article popped up in my Google Duggar search talking about JD's kissing being a bit much and Siah maybe heading for a breakdown. [It's on Cheatsheet] They talked about something I missed--that 'Siah tried to kiss his bride a second time and she rebuffed him. This was IN THE WEDDING? Wow. That might even be weirder than John David's controlling, porno kissing at his wedding. Any comments?

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

JD has gone from playful and quiet to gross and creepy in the blink of an eye.  They way he lumbers over Abbie, like he is marking his territory is gross, I don't know what switch flipped in him but he needs to flip it back. 

Siah, is looking bad, his acne is out of control, and that is probably from stress, he's gaining weight.  I don't think he and Lauren are suited for each other, at all.  I still think JB and Lauren's dad arraigned this marriage. JB needed to get Josiah married off and NOW, and the Cauldwell's were looking to relocate but couldn't afford it, so JB comes up with give us Lauren, and we'll give $$$$. It is the only thing that makes sense, to me anyway, and yes, this is TOTAL  SPECULATION AND OPINION! 

[singsingsing]

I’m 100000% sure JD was always gross and creepy and the only reason he seemed quiet and funny before is because we didn’t see as much of him.

[IReallyAmHopewell]

 

 

 

 

 

3

2 hours ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

They way he lumbers over Abbie, like he is marking his territory is gross, I don't know what switch flipped in him but he needs to flip it back. Agree. I think JB's emphasis on sex, sex, sex and Michelle preaching to wives to willing no matter where/when/why has given those kids a very, very twisted view of marriage, marital sex, boundaries, etc. Like with many things, it is hard to remember that we see only what an editor lets us see. Like Gothard and Bible verses behavior can be shown out of context, but I think JD probably IS really creepy.  That makes me very sad. I didn't think he would buck the system, but I thought he would be nice.

 

 

 

 

 

 

2

2 hours ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

Siah, is looking bad, his acne is out of control, and that is probably from stress, he's gaining weight.  I don't think he and Lauren are suited for each other, at all.  'SIah looks like a very nasty-tempered Josh. I never thought Josh was nasty in everyday life [YES, molesting your sisters IS damned nasty] I fear he is so wretchedly unhappy that he is like "wtf cares" and does what he wants. I wonder if Mrs. Siah [her name??] suspects all isn't well. I agree she was likely set up to marry him and get rid of the problem. I hope this season there is a sincere courtship since it seems each season is a wedding and  a bunch of babies.

 

 

[DarkAnts]

I never thought they had chemistry or comparable personalities. It's sad that they are stuck together.

[IReallyAmHopewell]

14 hours ago, DarkAnts said:

I never thought they had chemistry or comparable personalities. It's sad that they are stuck together.

I have thought that about nearly all the couples!

[FaithAndReason]

23 hours ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

JD has gone from playful and quiet to gross and creepy in the blink of an eye.  They way he lumbers over Abbie, like he is marking his territory is gross, I don't know what switch flipped in him but he needs to flip it back. 

Siah, is looking bad, his acne is out of control, and that is probably from stress, he's gaining weight.  I don't think he and Lauren are suited for each other, at all.  I still think JB and Lauren's dad arraigned this marriage. JB needed to get Josiah married off and NOW, and the Cauldwell's were looking to relocate but couldn't afford it, so JB comes up with give us Lauren, and we'll give $$$$. It is the only thing that makes sense, to me anyway, and yes, this is TOTAL  SPECULATION AND OPINION! 

I feel like this is what happens when children are raised with such an unhealthy vision of sex, marriage, dating, etc. If these kids had been given the chance to see a healthy (non-groping) marriage and if they had been allowed to experience dating, first kisses, "learning the ropes" of social behavior in regards to the opposite sex, much of this crappy behavior would have been worked out from ages 13-16. But instead we've got grown men acting like neandrathals because their parents sheltered them from the real world. Hopefully they can learn and grow with each other and the women feel like they can speak up for themselves and the relationship. BUT I doubt it. Their dad has never matured in regards to this, so why would they? 

[Chewing Gum]

I agree, John had to basically wait 14 years (16-30, is he 30 yet?) in which he couldn't look at, talk to, kiss a girl or help himself out. Then he has one at his disposal for every second of every day. He'a a teenager now, but on camera. We're seeing the unnatural outcome of his upbringing. I'd worry more if he was indifferent towards her so soon after marriage. Like Siah is in my eyes: he's talking all lovey-dovey about Lauren but I don't see ANY body language supporting that. To me they're just friends with benefits. 

Edited October 25, 2019 by Chewing Gum