Bates 26: Do Not Attempt This at Home

[Hisey]

6 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

Yep. She may have said that, but she is currently supporting someone who wants to make women second class citizens. 

 

And she attends a church that believes this:

Quote

We reject any teaching that abortion of pregnancy due to rape, incest, birth defects, gender selection, birth or population control, or the well being of the mother are acceptable.

and this

Quote

We believe that God has commanded that no sexual activity be engaged outside of marriage between a man and a woman. We believe that any form of homosexuality, lesbianism, bi-sexuality, bestiality, incest, pedophilia, fornication, adultery and pornography are sinful perversions of God’s gift of sex.

[Mrs Ms]

With regards to her endorsing her FIL

If someone that close to me was running for any public position, I would probably endorse them even if my opinions didn’t perfectly align with theirs. There would probably have to be less than 50% overlap or something I was REALLY passionate about that contradicted the official line before I’d take a public stand against a loved one. 

For example, she could be just as rabidly against abortion or maybe be ok with it in cases of rape, incest or danger to maternal health and still endorse him. We will never know. 

Personally I believe that she very much agrees with her FIL, but I haven’t fully given up hope she could “mellow” 

[AussieKrissy]

15 hours ago, TatiFish9 said:

Agreed. I struggle to believe all these kids of close age pick their mates in perfect timing for the next season, but are hopelessly single when there are one or two active courtships going on.

There is also a religious concept called the marriage supper of the lamb. It compares Jesus to a (marriage) groom and the church as his bride. The church (bride) is said to have been bought with a price (sacrifice on the cross). I have seen this analogy spoken to singles (females usually) often to help make their wait for a mate seem special. So I can totally see how Katie's comment can be both a veiled "gold-digger" secular joke but be laced with subtle fundie philosophy. She will be bought by the highest bidder (supposedly spiritually  *high*, but it Katie's case maybe he will have to have money, too).

One of the many odd things about her comment is she made the joke in reference to a women's clothing boutique. How many men besides Lawson, will actually read it???

Creepers who like pretty little 18 year olds... ??

[TatiFish9]

On 5/20/2019 at 2:32 AM, Mrs Ms said:

[...]

Personally I believe that she very much agrees with her FIL, but I haven’t fully given up hope she could “mellow” 

I love your post because it speaks to the complexity of human nature that is found in us all

With that said, I speculate that Alyssa is a typical bible belt "christian" living a secular life Monday - Saturday (grace and prayers included) and woe Jesus, pro-life, ain't that America, shame on the gays, minorities and liberals, I would totally get an abortion if I needed one, but will still vote for my father in law come election day -type on Sundays and high holidays. To me she is not exactly like her parents (who I am so skeptical of) or a few of her koolaid drinking siblings, the Duggars and especially so many of the famous fundies who don't have a tv show.

I strongly suspect the Bates are frauding it up, because the level of cognitive dissonance with this crew is strong. *Yoda hands*

I do not see Alyssa openly denouncing any views, but I fully expect her to continue to push back in personal spaces. She will still love her family and cater to John's. She will tow the line as long as it is convenient for her.

A few months ago, she did tell a commenter who was criticizing one of her behaviors as hypocrisy, that said commenter had no idea what they're talking about. I would have loved to see her expand on that retort. Who are you really Alyssa, not in your words alone, but also in your actions? Who are you when Mama bear Kelly is not defending you? Reminds me of something Ellen once said in a particular context: be brave about who you truly are not a coward. While I think Ellen's message was laced with unseen privilege and a twinge of apathy, there is some truth in its core meaning.

 

[Palimpsest]

NM.  I should have read ahead.

Edited May 21, 2019 by Palimpsest

[nickelodeon]

I agree that the 2nd gen Bateses are willing to “rethink” dogma when it allows them, specifically, to have more fun (wearing cute lil dresses, going to Disney World, dating) but things that could literally save the lives of people other than them? Treating immigrants as a threat to public safety to be outbred and/or sent to internment camps? Nevah!!!

[nokidsmom]

24 minutes ago, nickelodeon said:

I agree that the 2nd gen Bateses are willing to “rethink” dogma when it allows them, specifically, to have more fun (wearing cute lil dresses, going to Disney World, dating) but things that could literally save the lives of people other than them? Treating immigrants as a threat to public safety to be outbred and/or sent to internment camps? Nevah!!!

Agree, the "rethinking" is more to do with more superficial "fun" things but certainly not anything more serious such as immigration, etc.    

To be fair, it's possible that one or more of them will rethink things on a deeper level in the future.  How that will happen, via a personal situation or that of someone they know or whatever reason who knows.  But the kids are not deep thinkers, they were not raised to be deep thinkers so it's not surprising that it's all about the fun stuff.

As far as Alyssa endorsing her FIL, I don't think that the dilemma of endorsing a family member running for political office on a platform one disagrees with, all or in part, is a dilemma for her.    I can't speak to what family members do in this situation in general but I guess some go along to support their family member / keep the peace and that's the priority.   Others don't and take the grief, or try to stay under the family radar.   One can always vote their conscience in the privacy of the voting booth in either case. 

[formergothardite]

24 minutes ago, nokidsmom said:

Agree, the "rethinking" is more to do with more superficial "fun" things but certainly not anything more serious such as immigration, etc.   

Especially since these "fun" things are now fundie approved and it isn't like they faced any real backlash from their family for doing it. Sure Gil and Kelly like them to wear skirts at their house, but Kelly was supportive of Alyssa when she got comments.  Coming out a gay or even supporting gay rights, That would be something that would provoke backlash and go against fundie beliefs. Even supporting immigrants would show more change in them than starting wearing regular clothing. 

The Bates kids have adapted to go along with the change in fundie and even IBLP culture. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

Especially since these "fun" things are now fundie approved and it isn't like they faced any real backlash from their family for doing it. Sure Gil and Kelly like them to wear skirts at their house, but Kelly was supportive of Alyssa when she got comments.  Coming out a gay or even supporting gay rights, That would be something that would provoke backlash and go against fundie beliefs. Even supporting immigrants would show more change in them than starting wearing regular clothing. 

The Bates kids have adapted to go along with the change in fundie and even IBLP culture. 

Agree and I’ll go a step further because I’m cynical.:..their stepping away from their raising sartorially is fun for them....but it also normalizes their appearance so others are more easily sucked into the cult.

once you get followers going to big sandy and supporting IBLP financially then Kelly can “fellowship” with them about skirts or whatever. 

 

[pippi]

Agreed with all. To be clear, it was her statement about not being responsible for men's thoughts that I was encouraged by (ugh every time I use that word I just hear Michelle Duggar using it) by--NOT the fact that she is wearing different clothes. I didn't know when she said it though---it sounds like it was quite a while back, and from the posts above I gather her current actions don't reflect significant change ?.

I also agree that more "typical" clothes normalize them and their views. I don't know who I think is or isn't making the change for that reason, but I'm sure it's intentional in at least some cases (Bates or otherwise)*. 

*This sentence is worded very confusingly but it's been a long day so hopefully y'all get the gist. 

[TatiFish9]

4 hours ago, nickelodeon said:

I agree that the 2nd gen Bateses are willing to “rethink” dogma when it allows them, specifically, to have more fun (wearing cute lil dresses, going to Disney World, dating) but things that could literally save the lives of people other than them? Treating immigrants as a threat to public safety to be outbred and/or sent to internment camps? Nevah!!!

Yes. Like the rest of us. People usually make changes because they have no other choice and/or it benefits them. Right now their brand is fundie. They'll be fundie until the cows come home.

[pippi]

Copy pasting Alyssa's quote from that thread in case anyone else doesn't feel like digging: 

"I don't believe the way I'm dressed is perverted or sexual. I try to dress modestly to draw attention to Christ. I can't help it if there is someone out there who has a dirty mind... They will be that way regardless of what I wear unfortunately."

[TatiFish9]

Just now, pippi said:

Agreed with all. To be clear, it was her statement about not being responsible for men's thoughts that I was encouraged by (ugh every time I use that word I just hear Michelle Duggar using it) by--NOT the fact that she is wearing different clothes.

I agree.

I notice every time fundies do things we in snarkville say they'd never do - the bar moves higher on whether it is an indication that they will ever leave. Also, everything is considered fundie trend. "Oh well - you know, seances are fundie trend now. BUT that does not mean they are not fundie". True, but if they are doing seances now, maybe they will be marching for equal right tomorrow. The ability to broaden the mind against controlled dogmas is a start. But it is a moot point.

[pippi]

7 minutes ago, TatiFish9 said:

"Oh well - you know, seances are fundie trend now. BUT that does not mean they are not fundie"

I can see it now. "Next time on Bringing Up Bates...join Carlin and Tori as they whip out the Ouija board for some fun and fellowshipping with Charles Spurgeon! Will his wife, Susie, make a surprise appearance?!?" 

(But in all seriousness, you make good points!)

[formergothardite]

But they only change when the fundie trend has already changed. IBLP was allowing women to wear pants on properties a decade ago. Back in the 90's IBLP people were watching new, not rated PG movies. It is hardly like any of them adopted non-fundie trends. 

It is good that she says she isn't responsible, that is a change for her, but even her mother supported her in that. And so many fundies dress in normal clothing that the idea that is makes men sin isn't as popular as it was in the past. 

I really don't get what it is about Alyssa that has always inspired people to create fantasies where she isn't fundie. 

It isn't that the bar has changed, it is that fundies have evolved to look and act less like freaks because they realized that no longer worked in drawing in new converts. 

Alyssa and the rest of the Bates not acting like the did five/ten years ago isn't a sign they are less fundie. It is a trend in my area for Baptist churches to drop the Baptist, no longer use hymnals, use pallets as decorations, have the pastor wear ripped jeans and tennis shoes, but keeping the same terrible beliefs. The knew all those things turned people off so they rebranded, just like the Bates and most other fundies have done. 

The fundie culture has not remained stagnant and what was shocking behavior in some fundie groups in the past is now normal and accepted. 

 

[pippi]

15 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I really don't get what it is about Alyssa that has always inspired people to create fantasies where she isn't fundie. 

Yeah, not questioning whether she is fundie, personally. Just was gladdened by the not-responsible comment. Can't speak for anyone else, of course. I'm fairly new and am not sure why she inspires fantasies...but maybe because she was the first to move far away from her family geographically? Physical distance gives people hope for change, whether or not it's warranted? 

[formergothardite]

3 minutes ago, pippi said:

Physical distance gives people hope for change, whether or not it's warranted? 

Maybe but it doesn't really make sense since she moved right into an IBLP family who is in politics. Michael moved away to an IBLP family but didn't get that treatment. It is probably the pants, but even in the early 90's IBLP families wore pants at home, I wore a regular bathing suit and shorts. It really wasn't a super strange thing. So her moving to an IBLP family who wore pants shouldn't inspire all this talk about her moving away from being fundie. Especially since she supports a religious extremists in politics and goes to a very fundie church. 

[nelliebelle1197]

Alyssa is a fundie as ever. She is dumb as a brick #superficialtwit and simply does not possess the critical thinking skills or education to move much beyond what she is now. 

[Hisey]

5 hours ago, pippi said:

"I don't believe the way I'm dressed is perverted or sexual. I try to dress modestly to draw attention to Christ. I can't help it if there is someone out there who has a dirty mind... They will be that way regardless of what I wear unfortunately."

What? She tries to dress modesty to draw attention to Christ? Don't get me wrong, I think her outfits are lovely. However, I am not seeing her effort to "draw attention to Christ" in her pretty swirly dresses and fashionable shirts and pants. In what way would these draw attention to Christ?

When I look at Alyssa's outfits on instagram, it doesn't make me think of Christ. I think she has a nice dress on, or that she is enviably thin, or that her kids are cute, or that she seems to take an awful lot of pictures after church.

Whether or not her clothes are modest is a subjective matter, I guess. They don't bother me, but I suspect Michelle Duggar wouldn't find them modest.

But "draw attention to Christ"? I suspect that's the last thing she's thinking about when she goes shopping for clothes, or chooses an outfit in the morning.

She's just parroting what her mother used to tell her, while doing exactly as she wants.

Edited May 22, 2019 by Hisey

[nickelodeon]

6 hours ago, TatiFish9 said:

Yes. Like the rest of us. People usually make changes because they have no other choice and/or it benefits them.

Sure, though I’d add that sometimes people change their stance due to empathy towards strangers, without necessarily having personal stakes in the strangers’ suffering. Not the Bateses, of course.

[TatiFish9]

8 hours ago, nickelodeon said:

Sure, though I’d add that sometimes people change their stance due to empathy towards strangers, without necessarily having personal stakes in the strangers’ suffering. Not the Bateses, of course.

Of course not the Bates. All 39 of them were surprisingly not born with the empathy trait. 

We'll have to agree to disagree about personal stake in regards to the general population. I believe some personalities are more sensative to the needs of others, but what to do with that sensitivity is learned behavior.

15 hours ago, pippi said:

I can see it now. "Next time on Bringing Up Bates...join Carlin and Tori as they whip out the Ouija board for some fun and fellowshipping with Charles Spurgeon! Will his wife, Susie, make a surprise appearance?!?" 

(But in all seriousness, you make good points!)

Would totally pop some corn and ice some wine to watch THIS episode. lol

[nausicaa]

18 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Agree and I’ll go a step further because I’m cynical.:..their stepping away from their raising sartorially is fun for them....but it also normalizes their appearance so others are more easily sucked into the cult.

once you get followers going to big sandy and supporting IBLP financially then Kelly can “fellowship” with them about skirts or whatever. 

It also is strange that people assume that our only issues with them are personal choices like their clothing or entertainment options. 

I have no principled issue with what adults wear. That affects no one but them. Weave your own cloth and wear pilgrim dresses with great big white bonnets for all I care. Never watch a single episode of television. It's your life and I'm not about to dictate another's personal religious choices. 

My issue is when they push their choices onto us via their politics (or to some extent their children via poor homeschooling or pushing very early marriage).

[TatiFish9]

I sometimes wonder if Carlin truly wanted the dance segments in her wedding or if UPTV dropped the idea.

Either way, it has been quite the show watching Kelly and Gil back track on why they once held the doctrine of no dancing, but suddenly it is now pubically acceptable in certain settings.

What a joke they are becoming.

You know, people tend to favor them because they're an attractive family with loads of personality. But really, all they're becoming are frauds to me. Be socially and spiritually responsible. If you have experienced a shift in doctrine, say so. If money is your new god, admit you'll do anything for a successful show.

Edited May 22, 2019 by TatiFish9
Spelling

[ihaveanexamintwodays]

It seemed to me like the dancing was the most authentic part of Carlin's whole engagement. She seemed overjoyed in the moment, mentioned how special it was during interviews, and has been seen dancing with Evan since. 

[nelliebelle1197]

2 hours ago, TatiFish9 said:

I sometimes wonder if Carlin truly wanted the dance segments in her wedding or if UPTV dropped the idea.

Either way, it has been quite the show watching Kelly and Gil back track on why they once held the doctrine of no dancing, but suddenly it is now pubically acceptable in certain settings.

What a joke they are becoming.

You know, people tend to favor them because they're an attractive family with loads of personality. But really, all they're becoming are frauds to me. Be socially and spiritually responsible. If you have experienced a shift in doctrine, say so. If money is your new god, admit you'll do anything for a successful show.

They have not changed one bit. I am not sure why you feel that way. They have always been like this.