Bates 26: Do Not Attempt This at Home

[VelociRapture]

It’s not a joke. It’s the truth. Aren’t all the Bates and Duggar daughters kind of treated like property to be sold off rather than people when it comes to marriage? Aren’t all the Bates kids and grandkids (and most of the Duggars) just commodities to be packaged and sold by their respective networks at this point?

[nickelodeon]

Weird ass joke to make when you hang out with freaks who implement a literal “bride price” ritual in their weddings, but ok. (Hello Mortons!)

[nausicaa]

30 minutes ago, nickelodeon said:

Weird ass joke to make when you hang out with freaks who implement a literal “bride price” ritual in their weddings, but ok. (Hello Mortons!)

Yeah, I'm so thrown off by this joke. I can't figure out if this shows that Katie is way more astute and on top of Internet humor than I ever realized, or that she's really naive and unaware of her family's reputation in larger society.

If one of my friends had made this joke, I would laugh. But considering Katie is 18, forced to wear skirts, can't attend a real college, and has to live at home until her father approves of a suitable suitor to support her, it's kind of weird...

[JordynDarby5]

5 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

It’s not a joke. It’s the truth. Aren’t all the Bates and Duggar daughters kind of treated like property to be sold off rather than people when it comes to marriage? Aren’t all the Bates kids and grandkids (and most of the Duggars) just commodities to be packaged and sold by their respective networks at this point?

I thought about that the second time I read the joke and wondered if she was being honest instead of making a joke. 

[TatiFish9]

10 hours ago, llucie said:

I think its just a joke. but what a worldy joke . Seems like being friend with her non fundie cousin is rubbing off on her.

Yes! I think the Bates are frauding it up, not to be confused with defrauding which several of the youngers are definitely doing. This is speculation I have considered for quite some time. But it is definitely speculation. There is just too much that does not add up with (some) of the children's behavior long before they became more famous. I also think it interesting that Kelly keeps saying Erin is most like her because she basically keeps the family's belief system in her own marriage. In one of the last Lives, Gil corrected Kelly when she said it for the upteenth time. He said all their kids are living like them. Sure...

[Kelsey]

I think the parents are having a harder time reigning the kidults in at least when it comes to fashion. Lawson, Trace, Katie, Josie, and Carlin all relaxed their modesty standards a lot while still at home. Shorter hemlines, tighter clothes, and shirtless guys abound. Of course, they never address this at all. All Kelly has ever said is that they have to wear skirts and some kind of sleeve while living at home.  I think that the clothing standards are changing bc the older kids are getting out way more than Micheal and Erin seem to. Unfortunately, I don't think the underlying beliefs are changing except two cases:

1. Alyssa stating that she isn't responsible for dressing modestly to help the menfolk. 

2. Zach differentiating between types of crime 

Both are a vast improvement to their parents stated beliefs (only in these cases, they still appeae to be fundie as duck overall).

[HerNameIsBuffy]

15 minutes ago, Kelsey said:

All Kelly has ever said is that they have to wear skirts and some kind of sleeve while living at home.

I was watching a fascinating documentary today about the Nenets, an indigenous nomadic people in Siberia.  They are an animist culture yet the men were so offended that the documentary host was wearing pants the women made her a floral skirt to wear.  They had other gender specific rules like women can't step over a stick or piece of rope and have to walk around, lest the herd have problems which can lead to starvation.

It had nothing logically to do with modesty in that it averages -58 F so they are all covered head to toe for warmth yet skirts were mandatory.  That's fascinating to me.

 

[pippi]

So, for those wondering about parental response, here it is. Kind of surprised, I honestly would have expected them to just ignore that comment.

Maybe I'm being too generous but I didn't mind Alyssa's response. It was such a sibling thing to say! And managed to joke without making the woman-for-sale implication. If it was anyone but Alyssa, I would think maybe it was meant as a "save," but she seems to be taking her own path a tad more than some of the others, which makes me think she was really just teasing Katie. 

It was an odd caption. I read it as somewhat self aware...the way I know people who joke about marrying rich...but I can't decide if she thought about all the possible implications or not. She does come off as a bit more worldly and sharper humored than some of her peers/siblings. A number of her captions seem goofy, but none of them have seemed to have a double meaning before. 

 

Spoiler

 

3 hours ago, Kelsey said:

1. Alyssa stating that she isn't responsible for dressing modestly to help the menfolk. 

I didn't realize she had said this! Honestly, I think that's great. I know a "prettier facade" doesn't change the beliefs--but explaining the change is dress in that way is an important step toward a more balanced perspective. A step away from victim blaming. 

[pippi]

4 hours ago, TatiFish9 said:

Seems like being friend with her non fundie cousin is rubbing off on her.

Is that Kat? That was another one who commented on the post. 

[llucie]

15 hours ago, pippi said:

Is that Kat? That was another one who commented on the post. 

Yes. When looking at her and her sisters i cant stop thinking how normal the Bateses kids would have been if Gil didnt become a fundie. All his family except him is so normal.

[TatiFish9]

15 hours ago, pippi said:

Is that Kat? That was another one who commented on the post. 

Not sure. That's Llucie's direct quote. Isn't Kat much younger than Katie?

 

19 hours ago, Kelsey said:

1. Alyssa stating that she isn't responsible for dressing modestly to help the menfolk. 

2. Zach differentiating between types of crime 

 

I wasn't aware that Alyssa said this, but she has shown these words consistently in her on show and online actions. This is why I once said I did not think Alyssa was fundie anymore, if she ever truly drank the koolaid in the first place. I received much backlash for saying such, because "fundie" is a politically loaded word (amongst other things). It has been more of a religious (and sometimes social) term in my own life. For some, it is easy to tell the ones that stand out. Trace is another. Since he was a kid, I just thought - here's one who is doing his own thing. Wouldn't surprise me if Lawson was living a semi "wordly" life in Nashville but back at home he is as sweet as pie (to them). We all know his views are horrid in reality. I think that Gil and Kelly are smart enough to know what causes cases like Josh ( the marrital stuff, not the sexual abuse stuff). They realize attempting to control their kids is not only harmful but also bad for business.

Zach completely suprised me. His quote plunges the layers of fundie psychology that says all sin is equal. It also shows a cartain level of empathy on his part. I guess it makes sense because I am sure he had to agree with Whitney working outside the home. Also, his overexposure to "seculars" will surely continue to open up his world view. The thriving forces of cults like fridge fundiesm are seclusion and control (usually through fear). The more we see Gen 2 embracing the outer world (including but not limited to social media) the more we will get the ones who are not fully with it, making contrary comments. If they're truly pulling away, good for them! For some ,the process is rapid but for many it has an evolving speed.

Edited May 19, 2019 by TatiFish9
spelling errors

[HerNameIsBuffy]

4 minutes ago, TatiFish9 said:

This is why I once said I did not think Alyssa was fundie anymore, if she every truly drank the koolaid in the first place. I received much backlash for saying such, because fundie is a politically loaded word (amongst other things).

Backlash isn't due to it being a loaded word, it's because her actions don't indicate that at all.

She's lightened up on clothing, sure.  But still dressing in a way many in ILBP do.  Many fundies wear normal clothes.

She shills for Taliban Dan.  She is out there using her kids to put a shiny face to keep a fundy hatemonger who actively works against the rights of women in office.

Ditto Lawson...whether he lives a "worldly" life to some degree doesn't make him less fundy when he posts his fundy beliefs as clear as day on social media.

[TatiFish9]

@HerNameIsBuffy

I see what you are saying. I am speaking from a religious standpoint. I did not see Alyssa make that statement, but if she did she just punch the core tenet of purity culture in the face. That is HUGE. 

Politically/values wise, I have no comment because there are too many people in this world who have "fundie" beliefs that are not Christian or actively religious at all.

Doubling back to purity culture, it's one of the foremost attributes of fundie beliefs that keep women trapped and subservient. For someone with her standing in their community and her public reach to speak against it- I think that says a lot. She could have kept quiet on the controversial matter or fumbled around it like several of them do. She was bold and to the point.

 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 minute ago, TatiFish9 said:

She was bold and to the point.

Idk what she said...is there a link?

[TatiFish9]

2 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Idk what she said...is there a link?

Not sure. @Kelsey did Alyssa say this on show or social media? Is there a link?

I doubt it was on the show. Half the holy image they maintain is to keep those UP dollars rolling in.

 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 minutes ago, TatiFish9 said:

Not sure. @Kelsey did Alyssa say this on show or social media? Is there a link?

I doubt it was on the show. Half the holy image they maintain is to keep those UP dollars rolling in.

 

Thanks.  If someone can provide a link that would be great so we know what we're discussing.

[TatiFish9]

On 5/18/2019 at 1:16 PM, VelociRapture said:

It’s not a joke. It’s the truth. Aren’t all the Bates and Duggar daughters kind of treated like property to be sold off rather than people when it comes to marriage? Aren’t all the Bates kids and grandkids (and most of the Duggars) just commodities to be packaged and sold by their respective networks at this point?

Agreed. I struggle to believe all these kids of close age pick their mates in perfect timing for the next season, but are hopelessly single when there are one or two active courtships going on.

There is also a religious concept called the marriage supper of the lamb. It compares Jesus to a (marriage) groom and the church as his bride. The church (bride) is said to have been bought with a price (sacrifice on the cross). I have seen this analogy spoken to singles (females usually) often to help make their wait for a mate seem special. So I can totally see how Katie's comment can be both a veiled "gold-digger" secular joke but be laced with subtle fundie philosophy. She will be bought by the highest bidder (supposedly spiritually  *high*, but it Katie's case maybe he will have to have money, too).

One of the many odd things about her comment is she made the joke in reference to a women's clothing boutique. How many men besides Lawson, will actually read it???

[Kelsey]

43 minutes ago, TatiFish9 said:

Not sure. @Kelsey did Alyssa say this on show or social media? Is there a link?

I doubt it was on the show. Half the holy image they maintain is to keep those UP dollars rolling in.

 

She said it in the comments of one of her Insta photos awhile ago. I don't have insta anymore so I can't see the comments anymore but it was back around the time she first went public with pants. 

ETA: I just looked at her insta bc I can see the pic in my head that I think it was on and it appears that their only only pics from recent on there now. I want to say she only had Allie or maybe was introducing Lexi at the time. They were sitting on a couch and Alyssa was wearing a shortish dress. Kelly also came to her defense in the comments.

Edited May 19, 2019 by Kelsey
add more thoughts

[TatiFish9]

1 minute ago, Kelsey said:

She said it in the comments of one of her Insta photos awhile ago. I don't have insta anymore so I can't see the comments anymore but it was back around the time she first went public with pants. 

Okay. Thanks. That was a long time ago. Never heard it mentioned before but back then folks weren't combing the comments sections for info like they do now.

Btw, Alyssa doesn't just wear pants, she wears tights that show off her "woman parts". lol That is beyond modern or pretty dress. It is down right immodest.

My favorite were her tights that were flesh tone.?

I wonder what scripture supports that kinds of dress. I wonder what fundie principle corresponds with booty shorts.

Alyssa is a trip. lol But I like it. She's doing her own thing with her clothes and her kids all the while making sure she attends church every Sunday not wearing those kinds of clothes. I wonder why she switches it up.

[nausicaa]

25 minutes ago, Kelsey said:

She said it in the comments of one of her Insta photos awhile ago. I don't have insta anymore so I can't see the comments anymore but it was back around the time she first went public with pants. 

ETA: I just looked at her insta bc I can see the pic in my head that I think it was on and it appears that their only only pics from recent on there now. I want to say she only had Allie or maybe was introducing Lexi at the time. They were sitting on a couch and Alyssa was wearing a shortish dress. Kelly also came to her defense in the comments.

I remember this too. It was one of their early family photos. It was one of the few times I really liked Alyssa. I believe she even went so far to say that women aren't responsible for men's inappropriate thoughts?

[just_ordinary]

4 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

I remember this too. It was one of their early family photos. It was one of the few times I really liked Alyssa. I believe she even went so far to say that women aren't responsible for men's inappropriate thoughts?

That is what I remember too. It was indeed on her Instagram. Her and John’s accounts have recently been hacked iirc and that is why there are only newer photos. Don’t follow them so I don’t know how long they are posting again.

Edited May 19, 2019 by just_ordinary

[Kelsey]

@TatiFish9 and @HerNameIsBuffy I found this so if you re-read the linked thread and the posts around this one, you might be able to see the original pic and comments.

Edited May 19, 2019 by Kelsey
add more thoughts

[JillyO]

2 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Thanks.  If someone can provide a link that would be great so we know what we're discussing.

Alyssa's comment was in response to lots of her followers criticizing her for wearing what they consider immodest clothing. She said the following:

Quote

I don't believe the way I'm dressed is perverted or sexual. I try to dress modestly to draw attention to Christ. I can't help it if there is someone out there who has a dirty mind... They will be that way regardless of what I wear unfortunately

(As others have said, this comment no longer exists because Alyssa's original Instagram was hacked a few months ago and they deleted all her pictures.)

I agree that it was a very bold statement considering the views about modesty and women causing men to "stumble." Unfortunately, this was four years ago, and I really haven't seen Alyssa take any more steps away from fundamentalism since then.

[HereticHick]

My price, personally,  is far above rubies. What say you Katie? : )

[formergothardite]

4 hours ago, JillyO said:

I really haven't seen Alyssa take any more steps away from fundamentalism since then.

Yep. She may have said that, but she is currently supporting someone who wants to make women second class citizens.