Duggars by the Dozen 36: The Drought Has Ended with Jessa's Announcement

[VeryNikeSeamstress]

There was a priest who facilitated a religious event at my Catholic high school who came from the orthodox church. He jokingly referred to it as the church of bells smells and yells.

[mpheels]

7 hours ago, Antipatriarch said:

Seriously! My cousin had an Orthodox wedding and man did that go on forever. Hard to sit through.

You got to sit?! The one Greek wedding I attended had the congregation standing most of the time. 

[lizzybee]

I was actually thinking about this some this week. The thing that is such a head scratcher to me is the whole believing the "right way" BS. "I know there are people who don't believe at all, but NO, let's go try to undermine the faith of people who don't do Jesus like we do Jesus." Maddening really, not to mention both ignorant and arrogant. It's like people saying "you're not Catholic, why are you observing Lent?!" as though Catholics are the only people who observe Lent. So ignorant. I don't want to stay in my lane with faith, I want to learn all about Christianity as a whole. I can't understand why you'd want to make someone more like you instead of wanting to learn from them. Oh right, the cult thing, got it. 

[lumpentheologie]

I went to a Russian Orthodox wedding a few years ago, and there weren't seats at all -- generally everyone stands in the Russian Orthodox services I've been to. I love all the ritual and chanting and incense, though, and the less-harsh theology on salvation and redemption. If it weren't for the same political issues I have with Catholicism (no women priests, anti-abortion, anti-gay, often supporting reactionary-nationalist politics) I'd totally be Orthodox. 

[BachelorToTheRapture]

6 hours ago, lumpentheologie said:

I went to a Russian Orthodox wedding a few years ago, and there weren't seats at all -- generally everyone stands in the Russian Orthodox services I've been to. I love all the ritual and chanting and incense, though, and the less-harsh theology on salvation and redemption. If it weren't for the same political issues I have with Catholicism (no women priests, anti-abortion, anti-gay, often supporting reactionary-nationalist politics) I'd totally be Orthodox. 

Oh, I HATE incense. I have some extreme sensitivity to smells and it makes me vomit. The catholic church my grandma likes uses a ton of it (and I have to go to mass when I visit, another reason to stay away) and it took YEARS of me running to the bathroom sick for her to decide we could go elsewhere when I'm around.

[SassyPants]

On 3/9/2019 at 7:23 AM, lizzybee said:

I was actually thinking about this some this week. The thing that is such a head scratcher to me is the whole believing the "right way" BS. "I know there are people who don't believe at all, but NO, let's go try to undermine the faith of people who don't do Jesus like we do Jesus." Maddening really, not to mention both ignorant and arrogant. It's like people saying "you're not Catholic, why are you observing Lent?!" as though Catholics are the only people who observe Lent. So ignorant. I don't want to stay in my lane with faith, I want to learn all about Christianity as a whole. I can't understand why you'd want to make someone more like you instead of wanting to learn from them. Oh right, the cult thing, got it. 

Here’s what I believe about religion and faith in a nutshell. As long as you have the faith in what you believe, it does not hurt anyone else or tread on others’ beliefs, and your beliefs come from a loving place, your beliefs are legit and all is good. That’s it. As long as your beliefs do not hurt anyone or tread on others’ rights, it’s all good with me, and with the creator, if there is one. Too bad  so many others can not learn basic respect.  

[Buzzard]

I only wish her name was Ashley Madison

On 3/7/2019 at 7:19 PM, tabitha2 said:

Boy howdy this place is going to implode if Madison Nicole becomes Madison Duggar

 

[potato]

Holy cow.  I get too busy to check the Duggar threads for a week and come back to this?!  As a Greek Orthodox person, I am absolutely LIVID.  There are so many thoughts running through my mind that I don't even know what to say.  Yes, we definitely have Jesus, thank you very much.   

Orthodoxy upholds many of the original practices, creeds, and writings of the early church.  I can't get over Madison Nicole's (and presumably the rest of the group's) smugness.  Who are a bunch of teens with limited outside world experience to say that their interpretation of the Bible is more correct (and the only correct one) than those of the Ancient Church Fathers?  I'm seething.  It's one thing if they're well-versed in their own theology (and other faiths' theologies), but I doubt that.

And just because this is the internet, here's my disclaimer: when it comes to other people's faiths, I'm very "you do you unless it's hurting others".  

I skimmed over the rest of the replies and was able to muster a few other thoughts:

-Orthodoxy Christianity and Catholicism are not the same, but definitely have similar aspects.  The schism between the churches occurred in 1054 and is greatly attributed to papal primacy and the Filioque.  (In the Orthodox Nicene Creed, we say that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the just the Father.   The Filioque says the Father and the Son.)  

-Technically, an Orthodox Christian person can get married to another Christian as long as they are from a Trinitarian branch of Christianity.  So getting married to a Catholic or Protestant person is okay, but you can't marry a Mormon person.  I know many couples where one spouse is Orthodox and the other spouse is Catholic or Lutheran.  In fact, my own fiancé is Catholic!  While he doesn't have to convert for us to get married, he is planning on being chrismated right before Easter this year.  I promise I didn't force him into it; it was something that he chose himself.

 

Today is the first day of Lent for us.  I'm trying to be a better person and not be so angry/annoyed at others, but damn.  These fundies have me struggling already.

[habert]

I don’t normally watch the show but I caught it last night and my goodness Johannah is growing up! Ma and Pa Duggar don’t really have too many “little ones” left, do they huh?

[Peaches-n-Beans]

14 hours ago, habert said:

I don’t normally watch the show but I caught it last night and my goodness Johannah is growing up! Ma and Pa Duggar don’t really have too many “little ones” left, do they huh?

Bold of you to assume they'll ever admit it XD 

But seriously I full expect JB and MEchelle to tout Josie around as 'the baby' for the next 20 years. I seem to recall in the last few season of 19kac they still treated her somewhat like and infant despite being 4/5/6 at the time. 

[just_ordinary]

On 3/11/2019 at 10:16 PM, potato said:

Holy cow.  I get too busy to check the Duggar threads for a week and come back to this?!  As a Greek Orthodox person, I am absolutely LIVID.  There are so many thoughts running through my mind that I don't even know what to say.  Yes, we definitely have Jesus, thank you very much.   

Orthodoxy upholds many of the original practices, creeds, and writings of the early church.  I can't get over Madison Nicole's (and presumably the rest of the group's) smugness.  Who are a bunch of teens with limited outside world experience to say that their interpretation of the Bible is more correct (and the only correct one) than those of the Ancient Church Fathers?  I'm seething.  It's one thing if they're well-versed in their own theology (and other faiths' theologies), but I doubt that.

And just because this is the internet, here's my disclaimer: when it comes to other people's faiths, I'm very "you do you unless it's hurting others".  

I skimmed over the rest of the replies and was able to muster a few other thoughts:

-Orthodoxy Christianity and Catholicism are not the same, but definitely have similar aspects.  The schism between the churches occurred in 1054 and is greatly attributed to papal primacy and the Filioque.  (In the Orthodox Nicene Creed, we say that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the just the Father.   The Filioque says the Father and the Son.)  

-Technically, an Orthodox Christian person can get married to another Christian as long as they are from a Trinitarian branch of Christianity.  So getting married to a Catholic or Protestant person is okay, but you can't marry a Mormon person.  I know many couples where one spouse is Orthodox and the other spouse is Catholic or Lutheran.  In fact, my own fiancé is Catholic!  While he doesn't have to convert for us to get married, he is planning on being chrismated right before Easter this year.  I promise I didn't force him into it; it was something that he chose himself.

 

Today is the first day of Lent for us.  I'm trying to be a better person and not be so angry/annoyed at others, but damn.  These fundies have me struggling already.

Just adding that as far as I am aware Mormons are not recognised as Christians by the Catholic and Protestant church. It’s because they (C&P) state that after the New Testament there is no new revelation (like the Book of Mormon). Mormonism is therefore no Christian religion but an independent syncretic religion.

Iirc One part of the Mormon church has actually become trinitarian and also accepted the Niccene Creed. But they are still not recognised as Christians.

[ModestisHottest]

1 hour ago, just_ordinary said:

Just adding that as far as I am aware Mormons are not recognised as Christians by the Catholic and Protestant church. It’s because they (C&P) state that after the New Testament there is no new revelation (like the Book of Mormon). Mormonism is therefore no Christian religion but an independent syncretic religion.

Iirc One part of the Mormon church has actually become trinitarian and also accepted the Niccene Creed. But they are still not recognised as Christians.

Ooo this is super interesting! I've also read that if you convert between Christian churches you generally don't need to be re-baptized.  (I.e. if you were baptized in childhood in a Presbyterian church you don't need to get baptized again if you want to convert to Catholicism) but if you were baptized as a Mormon you do need to be re-baptized.  

[NakedKnees]

 

2 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

*snip*

Iirc One part of the Mormon church has actually become trinitarian and also accepted the Niccene Creed. But they are still not recognised as Christians.

This is probably a complicated question, but I wonder if anyone here knows: are nontrinitarian Christians not actually considered Christians by mainstream catholic and protestant denominations? 

I feel like a lot of the rejection of mormons comes from other cultural contexts, not just their nontrinitarian stance. But how about Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Scientists, Christ-believing Unitarian Universalists? I've always personally considered those (and Mormons) under the "Christian" umbrella, but do more mainstream Christians not think that?

[just_ordinary]

1 hour ago, NakedKnees said:

 

This is probably a complicated question, but I wonder if anyone here knows: are nontrinitarian Christians not actually considered Christians by mainstream catholic and protestant denominations? 

I feel like a lot of the rejection of mormons comes from other cultural contexts, not just their nontrinitarian stance. But how about Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Scientists, Christ-believing Unitarian Universalists? I've always personally considered those (and Mormons) under the "Christian" umbrella, but do more mainstream Christians not think that?

I have no idea. I will also say that maybe the Protestant churches in other countries have a different stance at that matter?

[MadameOvary]

1 hour ago, NakedKnees said:

 

This is probably a complicated question, but I wonder if anyone here knows: are nontrinitarian Christians not actually considered Christians by mainstream catholic and protestant denominations? 

I feel like a lot of the rejection of mormons comes from other cultural contexts, not just their nontrinitarian stance. But how about Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Scientists, Christ-believing Unitarian Universalists? I've always personally considered those (and Mormons) under the "Christian" umbrella, but do more mainstream Christians not think that?

I can't say I know this for sure. But from my experience of growing up in both Lutheran and Greek Orthodox churches in Europe, I am under the impression that no, Mormons definitely and Jehovah's Witnesses probably wouldn't be considered Christians. 

Whether or not a convert would be re-baptised depends on what they are converting from. Baptism is a sacrament, and if you convert from another church that also holds baptism a sacrament, then of course it wouldn't be redone. Lutherans have fewer sacraments than Catholic and Orthodox churches, but baptism is definitely one of them.

[OyToTheVey]

On 3/3/2019 at 6:22 PM, FluffySnowball said:

FullyRawKristina would be an interesting thread drift (though she’s not connected to Christian fundamentalism at all.) She’s a bit of a nut, plain and simple, which makes me enjoy watching her on YT at times. But I assume underneath all her spiritual delusions and pseudoscientific crap, she’s in need of therapy. I’m no medical professional and have no idea what her issue might be or even if I’m right at all, but she sometimes describes symptoms or experiences that seem alarming (e.g. once she could hardky speak for days due to some sudden unexplained throat issue she often references problems with her mother that are now overcome yet still come up regularly, she seems to have nervous breakdowns and the list goes on) 

Just for those wondering: I’m not a vegan-bashing carnivore, let me make that clear ? I’m actually vegetarian and love (raw) vegan food. Home-made smoothies are LIFE! But FRK is still unhinged in my eyes. 

I thought I was the only one that kept up with her just to see wtf she'd say next! That woman has lost it. Her super bright photos don't hide the fact that she needs massive help. She went from farmer girl to some crazy pseudo stuff. I stopped following her a while ago because it was getting beyond a 'pet' point. She's 'cured' many a diabetic by telling them to go raw. I wanted to yell that she's not a doctor but it's pointless.

[crancraz]

2 hours ago, NakedKnees said:

 

This is probably a complicated question, but I wonder if anyone here knows: are nontrinitarian Christians not actually considered Christians by mainstream catholic and protestant denominations? 

I’ve grown up in many different church environments—Catholic, Baptist, Presbyterian, Methodist, non-denom Evangelical, and Episcopalian. Nontrinitarians have never been considered Christian by any of those denominations. The Trinity is a crucial part of mainstream C&P Christian doctrine. 

To take it a step further, most churches I’ve been affiliated with considered Mormons and Jehovahs Witnesses as being cults. 

[Sullie06]

On 3/13/2019 at 9:14 AM, ModestisHottest said:

Ooo this is super interesting! I've also read that if you convert between Christian churches you generally don't need to be re-baptized.  (I.e. if you were baptized in childhood in a Presbyterian church you don't need to get baptized again if you want to convert to Catholicism) but if you were baptized as a Mormon you do need to be re-baptized.  

My grandfather was baptized and raised Lutheran but converted to Catholicism when he married my grandmother and he didn't have to be re-baptized. He said converting was the easy part, telling his Mom was the hard part.  

[lumpentheologie]

For a while after my parents discovered the Catholic priest in our area was a child molester we attended a Unitarian church (not UU).  The church (and my parents) considered it to be Christian: they didn't believe that Jesus was God, rather that he was a savior as a teacher inspired by God and showing us how we should live and treat one another. Jesus was the Son of God, but we were all sons and daughters of God (in a metaphorical sense). They also thought that sin was the absence of Christ's light and they didn't believe in Hell or the Devil. 

It was a pretty nice church to be in as a kid, but other kids in school definitely told me I wasn't a Christian and I got in arguments with them about it.  As an adult I realized that a good number of people in mainline Protestant churches don't actually believe most of what their denomination claims as central doctrine and often believe something more or less like Unitarianism. But policing who is a Christian and who isn't has always left a bad taste in my mouth. 

[FluffySnowball]

On 3/13/2019 at 5:47 PM, OyToTheVey said:

I thought I was the only one that kept up with her just to see wtf she'd say next! That woman has lost it. Her super bright photos don't hide the fact that she needs massive help. She went from farmer girl to some crazy pseudo stuff. I stopped following her a while ago because it was getting beyond a 'pet' point. She's 'cured' many a diabetic by telling them to go raw. I wanted to yell that she's not a doctor but it's pointless.

YES - I see that as a trend right now, although it certainly isn’t a new thing. So many people try to cure things with odd diets. I’m a supporter of the “let food be thy medicine” idea in the sense that it’s good to look after yourself and your needs, don’t drink like crazy over long periods of time, don’t smoke (that’s a sad one for me cause while I’m not addicted, I just love the taste and smell of cigarettes), occasionally eat a vegetable or two. But I wouldn’t center my life around food, it’s not my whole purpose or religion, it’s mostly just fun. So yeah, she’s a bit of a pet peeve of mine, too. This is not to say, though, that I don’t wish her the support, help and insights she seems to need, quite the contrary!

[OyToTheVey]

1 hour ago, FluffySnowball said:

YES - I see that as a trend right now, although it certainly isn’t a new thing. So many people try to cure things with odd diets. I’m a supporter of the “let food be thy medicine” idea in the sense that it’s good to look after yourself and your needs, don’t drink like crazy over long periods of time, don’t smoke (that’s a sad one for me cause while I’m not addicted, I just love the taste and smell of cigarettes), occasionally eat a vegetable or two. But I wouldn’t center my life around food, it’s not my whole purpose or religion, it’s mostly just fun. So yeah, she’s a bit of a pet peeve of mine, too. This is not to say, though, that I don’t wish her the support, help and insights she seems to need, quite the contrary!

We have a lot in common! I love the taste and smell of cigarettes too and I don't smoke. There's just something off with her. Food is supposed to be fun and adventurous. She's said that as a teenager she had problems with food. I just think for her specifically going Raw is a food disorder. It's still controlling her but in a different way. She needs therapy not a pineapple dinner.

[FluffySnowball]

18 minutes ago, OyToTheVey said:

We have a lot in common! I love the taste and smell of cigarettes too and I don't smoke. There's just something off with her. Food is supposed to be fun and adventurous. She's said that as a teenager she had problems with food. I just think for her specifically going Raw is a food disorder. It's still controlling her but in a different way. She needs therapy not a pineapple dinner.

We really seem to have a lot in common ? Yes, I also think it’s good to be a little “adventurous” with food. I love trying new things, reading cookbooks and checking out all kinds of restaurants. My favorite cuisines are Mexican and Japanese I think. Too much tasty food, too little time ?

I didn’t know she said she had food issues as a teen but it fits. The danger is that she might attract vulnerable people who then go her route instead of, as you rightly suggested, getting therapy. 

[mpheels]

3 hours ago, lumpentheologie said:

For a while after my parents discovered the Catholic priest in our area was a child molester we attended a Unitarian church (not UU).  The church (and my parents) considered it to be Christian: they didn't believe that Jesus was God, rather that he was a savior as a teacher inspired by God and showing us how we should live and treat one another. Jesus was the Son of God, but we were all sons and daughters of God (in a metaphorical sense). They also thought that sin was the absence of Christ's light and they didn't believe in Hell or the Devil. 

It was a pretty nice church to be in as a kid, but other kids in school definitely told me I wasn't a Christian and I got in arguments with them about it.  As an adult I realized that a good number of people in mainline Protestant churches don't actually believe most of what their denomination claims as central doctrine and often believe something more or less like Unitarianism. But policing who is a Christian and who isn't has always left a bad taste in my mouth. 

This is more or less what I believe... I grew up in the United Methodist Church, and still culturally identify as a Methodist. I take a lot of comfort in the rituals and routines of Methodism, but am struggling with the impending schism over gay marriage. I attended a very liberal “reconciling” UMC for along time, and the felt pretty comfortable with my personal interpretation of God and Jesus during that time, but moved away and haven’t found a similarly comfortable community. There is a non-UU Universalist church near me - I might have to give them a try.

[OyToTheVey]

On 3/19/2019 at 5:58 PM, FluffySnowball said:

We really seem to have a lot in common ? Yes, I also think it’s good to be a little “adventurous” with food. I love trying new things, reading cookbooks and checking out all kinds of restaurants. My favorite cuisines are Mexican and Japanese I think. Too much tasty food, too little time ?

I didn’t know she said she had food issues as a teen but it fits. The danger is that she might attract vulnerable people who then go her route instead of, as you rightly suggested, getting therapy. 

I thought you might be interested in this. I just saw this https://www.boredpanda.com/vegan-influencer-caught-eating-fish-video-reactions-yovana-mendoza-ayres/?cexp_id=16903&cexp_var=8&_f=featured&utm_source=google&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=organic

How crazy is that!?!?! Never trust a food influencer. She potentially harmed thousands of vulnerable people. It's not right.

[louisa05]

Regarding: "You're not Catholic, why are you doing Lent?". I've been guilty of that one. But only to evangelicals who attacked me for becoming Catholic and routinely attack things like Lent because it is "not biblical" and then told me about how they and their megachurch are doing "40 days of __________" as a "pre-Easter discipline". So then, inevitably, I would pretty much say "uh...that would be a Lenten practice. You're not Catholic. Why are you doing Lent? It's not in the Bible". But, in general, I don't have a problem with it for those denominations who recognize and practice the season. 

Some Protestant denominations will re-baptize people. The one I (sort of) grew up in does if the person was not baptized by immersion--they are very strict that you must be completely dunked, hold your breath, whole head under. A lot of megachurches in my area will rebaptize if the person was baptized as an infant or very young child or, in some cases, in a denomination that they don't consider sufficiently "bible believing". 

The Catholic church recognizes any baptism done in the Trinitarian formula ("I baptize you in the name of the father, son and holy spirit") which covers most Protestant denominations.