Duggars by the Dozen 36: The Drought Has Ended with Jessa's Announcement

[singsingsing]

Do not have sex just to get it over with, because you think you're 'too old' to still be a virgin. I mean, don't let me tell you what to do, but this is my opinion and I'll stand behind it. If you want to have sex because you want to have sex, go for it. But if what you're feeling is pressure and shame, don't go down that road. First, because way more people are 'older virgins' than you think. Second, because most people actually could not care less. Third, because the people who do care are probably not going to be people you really want to be with. Because the truth is that there is literally no difference between losing your virginity at 28 vs. 32. These are completely arbitrary numbers, and frankly, nobody's going to be like, "Wow, she was a virgin till she was 29, but at least she didn't wait till she was 30! Dodged a bullet there!" 

[Pecansforeveryone]

I will second what @singsingsing said. I was waiting until marriage through out my 20's and early 30s due to shame/fear of hell regarding premarital sex. I became an atheist at 34 and was thru with having to wait until marriage. I had sex with a man I was casually dating, "just to get it over with." He turned out to be a jerk. I wish I had waited a little longer to find a better guy to have that experience with. Feel free to disregard my opinion. Your life is 100% yours and yours alone to live. The man I dated immediately after the jerk is the man I am now happily married to. (So I lived and learned the really hard way for me.) May Rufus bless you in all you do. 

[JordynDarby5]

44 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

Do not have sex just to get it over with, because you think you're 'too old' to still be a virgin. I mean, don't let me tell you what to do, but this is my opinion and I'll stand behind it. If you want to have sex because you want to have sex, go for it. But if what you're feeling is pressure and shame, don't go down that road. First, because way more people are 'older virgins' than you think. Second, because most people actually could not care less. Third, because the people who do care are probably not going to be people you really want to be with. Because the truth is that there is literally no difference between losing your virginity at 28 vs. 32. These are completely arbitrary numbers, and frankly, nobody's going to be like, "Wow, she was a virgin till she was 29, but at least she didn't wait till she was 30! Dodged a bullet there!" 

It really should be that simple. If you want to have sex, go for it. If you don't or you want to wait until marriage or wait until your ready. That's fine. Whatever decision you make should really be up to you. What you want, how you feel. Not society's opinion, not religious, not friends , family, or your boyfriend or girlfriend. What works for one, doesn't work for someone else. No one should be pressured into having sex or pressured into not having sex. No one should feel bad, dirty, or that they sinned or any other crap for having sex. I really find it hard to believe that God or any deity really cares that much about whether or not someone has had sex before marriage. There's so much else for God to worry about then that. 

[Smee]

Yes, I really think societal pressure to have sex/feeling like you’re “too old” to be a virgin is no better than religious pressure to wait/feeling like you’ll be “impure”. Do it when YOU feel ready, with the person you want to. 

Although on the other hand, I suppose casual sex for your first time is really no different/worse/better than casual sex when you’ve been doing it for years, so if you’re sure that’s what you want then *shrugs* you do you.

[lumpentheologie]

5 hours ago, Smee said:

Although on the other hand, I suppose casual sex for your first time is really no different/worse/better than casual sex when you’ve been doing it for years, so if you’re sure that’s what you want then *shrugs* you do you.

I think it's important to note that casual sex vs. sex in a relationship is not the same difference as sex you feel pressured into having vs. sex you want to have. Not that you said that, @Smee, but the conversation has been going in a way that could get those confused. 

I agree with those who urge 'older virgins' not to have sex just because they feel like they should.  I do think that how you start having sexual experiences kind of sets the tone for what you expect of sex (although that can and will change over time). And really the most important thing about having sex is that you should want to be having it.

I think women in general are taught to massively undervalue how important their own desire and pleasure during sex is. Doing something sexual that's not about your desire and pleasure just so you'll be more acceptable to some abstract future guy is a pretty shitty trade off. 

TL,DR: Have casual sex if you want, have sex in a relationship if you want, don't have sex at all if you want, just have whatever sex YOU want. 

[backyard sylph]

On the other hand, just as a...different way of approaching the thing, if you waited and waited and now you're wishing you could know what it's like to have sex, but are not in a relationship,

Which I say only because I know several women in their 30s who have never been in a serious one...and I think they might have some deeper longings; of course, plenty of people live entire fulfilled lives without ever having sex, but some of us are more driven by it than others,

and I think there are at least a couple safe and legal paths you could take to explore some things. which might foster new energy and mental creativity or just give you something you feel you've been missing. I don't say it's what everyone needs or should do, just that it can be done. 

[singsingsing]

12 minutes ago, backyard sylph said:

On the other hand, just as a...different way of approaching the thing, if you waited and waited and now you're wishing you could know what it's like to have sex, but are not in a relationship,

Which I say only because I know several women in their 30s who have never been in a serious one...and I think they might have some deeper longings; of course, plenty of people live entire fulfilled lives without ever having sex, but some of us are more driven by it than others,

and I think there are at least a couple safe and legal paths you could take to explore some things. which might foster new energy and mental creativity or just give you something you feel you've been missing. I don't say it's what everyone needs or should do, just that it can be done. 

See, to me that would be someone pursuing sex because they actually really want to have sex, and not just because they feel pressured or shamed because they’re ‘too old’. Every individual can figure out their comfort zone regarding sex. For some people, it’s going to be waiting for marriage. For others, something casual is more appealing. It’s all about what you, the individual, really want to do, without regard to society’s stupid prejudices about what’s slutty, prudish, or weird. 

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

18 hours ago, singsingsing said:

A lot of people who make the personal choice to wait for marriage (or some other comparatively 'conservative' point) to have sex also find that messaging really creepy and terrible. I remember when I was in my early-mid 20s and still trying to do the conservative Christian thing, I'd see certain guys complaining that there were no girls left who were virgins/willing to wait for marriage, and I'd think, "Mm, no, there are actually a lot of us, we're just not interested in you. 'Cause your angry entitlement is disturbing, and it's kind of disgusting to be valued for the simple fact that you've never had a penis inside you."

I'll never forget when I was out at a bar just before I turned 20, and this dude was trying to put the moves on me. He asked me what the craziest sexual thing I'd ever done was, and I said, "Nothing, I'm a virgin," thinking that would shut him down. Instead he went, "Really? Wow! And you're how old? Wow, I actually respect you a lot more now!" I was so repulsed. Fuck you, dude.

The worst part of those guys is they expect a virgin on their wedding night but they've fucked 1/2 the female population of their city/town.  I "dated" a guy in my early 20's when I was a virgin, and when found out after I told him no he was like "Oh, this takes this relationship to a whole new level" When I asked what that meant, he said I was "marriage material".  I was like okay... he went home and the more I thought about the the more pissed I got.  When he called the next day I told him that his views on my virginity considering he was trying to screw me the night before took the relationship to a screaming halt and I wasn't interested AT ALL, and to not bother calling me again.  

I ran into him about 2 years later when I joined my church, and was engaged to my now husband. He was still single looking for his virgin bride. He made a comment to my fiance that he was lucky to find a virgin, my fiance told him "that he was disgusting to insist his bride be a virgin when he was a disgusting man whore." 

[Carm_88]

The more I read here, the more I hate society. Have all the sex that you want, so if you want to have lots of sex with one partner, do it! If you want to have lots of sex with lots of different people, do it and be safe! If you don't particularly want to have sex, don't do it. We all spend far too much time measuring ourselves against the rest of society, do what you want when you want! We are not being graded on the bell curve, there is no failing at life! Do it on your own terms and tell everyone else to fuck off! 

[mollysmom]

23 hours ago, singsingsing said:

Virginity is a meaningless social construct. If you don't believe me, just think about what it even means for a minute. Are you a virgin if you've never had PIV sex? Okay, well then what about people who've only had same-sex encounters - are they virgins? Is it just penetration in general? What about a couple who just doesn't have penetrative sex for whatever reason, but they engage in other sex acts - are they virgins? Is it just engaging in something sexual? Well, then where do you draw the line? If you get fingered, are you a virgin? What if you just had oral? What about sexting, fooling around via webcam? Masturbation? These are all sexual acts. 

If they count masturbation then I lost my virginity when I was like 12!! 

[singsingsing]

16 minutes ago, mollysmom said:

If they count masturbation then I lost my virginity when I was like 12!! 

Haha, yeah, I don't think anyone actually counts masturbation as losing your virginity - actually, I take that back, knowing that there are tens of thousands of people who believe the earth is flat, I'm sure there are people who do believe this, but it must be pretty rare. But yeah, I was just using it to demonstrate how arbitrary the standard is!

[Satan'sFortress]

This is a very interesting discussion.

I dated a lovely boy through high school and the beginning of college.  We fooled around plenty---everything but PIV sex, I guess.  I was still fairly Catholic enough to think that if we did deed, it meant we were going to get married.  It is weird to even type that---I can't believe I thought that!  But as it turned out, I started dating someone else my soph. year in college.  He was a little "wilder" and I did feel pressured to go all the way.  I remember being really uneasy about it.  And he basically made me be on top, which was even more awkward.  I just didn't feel right.  But we did it & I thought that meant we'd be together forever. And, then he dumped me about a week later*.

To this day (and it has been almost 30 years now), I regret it.  I wish I HAD done it with the high school boyfriend, though.  So, double regret. I get what everyone is saying about the virginity being a sham, and I do agree.  Still,  I can't help but wish my first time had been with someone good and kind and who really loved me.  Even if we didn't end up together, it would have been a nicer memory.

 

*I Googled the douche a few months ago,  He turned out super yucko--he looks old enough to be my dad.  And he is working for a conservative educational organization. 

[VBOY9977]

The Duggars were tagged on this instagram. They went to a hunt. Swansons and Caldwell’s are there too

Spoiler

Btw Kendra’s outfit is... something else

[Mlissmartin]

9 minutes ago, VBOY9977 said:

The Duggars were tagged on this instagram. They went to a hunt. Swansons and Caldwell’s are there too

  Reveal hidden contents

Btw Kendra’s outfit is... something else

Looks comfy, I'd wear it. Shrug

[Vivi_music]

I totally second everyone who has contributed on here. If you want to have sex and live that experience out of curiosity and longing, you can go for it. If you still want to wait, then that is fine too. But I hate that women (and men) are made to feel this stupid social pressure. Like @singsingsing said, it is a stupid social construct meant to control sexuality in a hetero-normative way. Pffff

I understand how you feel because I felt the pressure too. I had my first sexual relationship in my late 20s. Let's just say I lived in a secular society where the perception of virginity was the contrary of the fundie world. A lot of the popular kids in high school in the early 2000s were the ones who seemed to know the deed (I suspect now that I'm an adult, a lot of them were pretending to know the deed just to look cool). I was not too affected by it in HS because I was very studious and nerdy. So I felt that relationship, sexual desire and such would happen later in my young adult life. But as I got through college, it did not happen. Not because I was very religious nor believed to wait until mariage. I admit I lacked self-confidence to put myself out there, that is true. But even so, a bunch of my friends where also shy and met new people, fooled around here and there.

For me, it was always about feeling ''right''. Throughout my 20s, I didn't meet any person that made me feel comfortable enough to be physically intimate. As simple as that. I had a BF for a few months at one point but I knew it was not going to work, right from the start. He was nice and we had a lot in common. I simply didn't feel anything for him. I know he wanted to get more intimate on the physical level but I didn't feel it. He was nice enough not to push it and I broke up after a few months. Not gonna lie, I was disappointed. I would have loved to be able to discover sex with him. I wanted to live that experience too and was bummed it didn't happen. I was starting to be afraid I would not know what to do when the moment came, that it would be the strangest thing.

Then I met Mr. Music in my late 20s and him in his early 30s. He was SO ashamed of telling me he was a virgin. Which made me hate stupid patriarchy even more (because men suffer from the shame too). He was scared he would not be able to please me. From what he told me, our situations were similar growing up. He was a bit of a shy kid who had a close group of friends, but didn't meet anyone he was interested in enough. Not much more explanation than that. I was happy he trusted me enough to confide something that clearly burdened him. But really it would not have changed my perception of him. I asked him about me, what if I was not a virgin. And he said his perception would have been the same.

My story is not a testimony telling people to wait and then your fellow-virgin prince charming will pop in your life. I love Mr. Music for who he is, for the fun we have together, for the support we show each other, for the intimacy we were built together. His virgin-status didn't make a difference. For me, it was just a coincidence. What I'm trying to say in the end is that there are many more people who live through their 20s and 30s and don't have sex. Numbers are just arbitrary and I hope you do you (whatever feels right for you).

[Smee]

The question of what constitutes sex also seems to be interpreted differently between men and women - the old “if a guy tells you his number, divide it by 3 to get the real answer, if a girl tells you her number, multiply it by 3”. When Mr Smee and I were first dating and I told him I was a virgin, he said he’d had two partners before me who were both very short lived and not exciting. I was like “ok, whatever” and we went on our merry way in our relationship. I think we’d been married maybe 6 years? which would mean having sex with each other for about 8, when somehow the conversation of past experiences came up again and I discovered that both those prior instances I’d assumed were PIV were actually hand jobs. I’d done that with a former boyfriend once, so Mr Smee and I actually had very similar histories, but he’d “counted” things I didn’t, probably because as a guy he felt social pressure to be having sex whereas as a girl I felt pressure to hold on to virginity. And of course, now that the heteronormativity of it is pointed out, of COURSE I don’t think of my lesbian friends as virgins! But they haven’t had PIV, and that was the standard I’d defined virginity as to myself.

I used to be a high school teacher, and a former colleague once mentioned how she’d heard some students saying “if you have anal instead you’re still a virgin”. As a PD/H/PE teacher she felt the need to point out that’s a pretty rubbish reason to have anal and if they DO want to explore that whether instead or alongside, condoms are still very necessary.

[Iamtheway]

 

4 hours ago, VBOY9977 said:

The Duggars were tagged on this instagram. They went to a hunt. Swansons and Caldwell’s are there too

  Hide contents

Btw Kendra’s outfit is... something else

I could totally wear Kendra’s outfit, love the shoes, but look at their faces! Kendra looks like she’s at a happy picnic with friends, Joe looks like he’s leading a band of warriors on the last battle. 

[victoriasponge]

Now that I’m a couple months out of my relationship, I’ve realised how toxic the whole ideology around sex is. We hadn’t been having PIV sex much over the final year of our relationship because of my health problems (yay - female bodies) and because we were living with close friends which made it really awkward for me. Then I moved away and the distance became the main contributing factor.

But his attitude towards it was shocking. He essentially broke up with me for not having PIV sex with him in spite of the health conditions and tried to shame me for it. Like fine, he wasn’t satisfied but he never told me that and I assumed because of the whole health concern thing it was somewhat settled. 

Plus he kept trying to get me to do it without condoms that he forgot to bring when he came to stay. 

I grew up Catholic and already had my issues around sex but now I’m just paranoid about it. If a long-term relationship where we had talked about marriage and kids could end because of condoms and a health condition, I don’t trust much else to work right now. 

[lumpentheologie]

1 hour ago, Smee said:

The question of what constitutes sex also seems to be interpreted differently between men and women - the old “if a guy tells you his number, divide it by 3 to get the real answer, if a girl tells you her number, multiply it by 3”. When Mr Smee and I were first dating and I told him I was a virgin, he said he’d had two partners before me who were both very short lived and not exciting. I was like “ok, whatever” and we went on our merry way in our relationship. I think we’d been married maybe 6 years? which would mean having sex with each other for about 8, when somehow the conversation of past experiences came up again and I discovered that both those prior instances I’d assumed were PIV were actually hand jobs. I’d done that with a former boyfriend once, so Mr Smee and I actually had very similar histories, but he’d “counted” things I didn’t, probably because as a guy he felt social pressure to be having sex whereas as a girl I felt pressure to hold on to virginity. And of course, now that the heteronormativity of it is pointed out, of COURSE I don’t think of my lesbian friends as virgins! But they haven’t had PIV, and that was the standard I’d defined virginity as to myself.

I used to be a high school teacher, and a former colleague once mentioned how she’d heard some students saying “if you have anal instead you’re still a virgin”. As a PD/H/PE teacher she felt the need to point out that’s a pretty rubbish reason to have anal and if they DO want to explore that whether instead or alongside, condoms are still very necessary.

This is so true.  When I was in high school I wanted to "save my virginity" for someone I was in love with and in a serious relationship with, because I was always told that having sex for the first time changes you and creates a serious emotional bond. (No explicit purity stuff, thankfully.) But I (and all my female friends) were having oral sex for years before we had PIV sex, and we were all really invested in thinking it wasn't sex, it was just fooling around. Now I realize how heteronormative and arbitrary that is, but at the time we would all have been horrified to admit that we had had sex with X number of people if oral sex was counted. 

Nowadays I don't think anyone even agrees on what constitutes sex. 

[kiwi]

My daughters are 10 and under right now. But I for one will not be encouraging them to save their virginity for marriage. I understand the (outdated) reasonings behind it, but it leaves a lot of pressure on the wedding day. I had sec with my long term boyfriend as a teen, we had been together since we were 12! However he moved away to school after nearly 5 years together. As a 17yr old in my final year of high school I was out socialising and we decided to end it cos he couldnt trust me. (He ended up knocking the only other girl he ever slept with a few months later). I didn’t enjoy relations with him particularly much, it was awkward and rushed.

 

I believe every one of my previous “PIV partners” taught me something about what I liked, or disliked or what works for me or not, etc.

 

I was 19 when I met my husband and he was 20, he was still a virgin. He didn’t really socialise much in high school (small town), he was into his sports more. I was his first (and only). I’m not sure how things would have worked if we were both inexperienced?

 

I will be teaching my girls to be save with their bodies and to not rush into things. Use protection, etc. I’d rather they be under my roof than to be in an alley way or car somewhere pressured into doing more than they wanted because of the situation they are in.

 

 

 

[VBOY9977]

3 hours ago, Iamtheway said:

 

I could totally wear Kendra’s outfit, love the shoes, but look at their faces! Kendra looks like she’s at a happy picnic with friends, Joe looks like he’s leading a band of warriors on the last battle. 

Oh, it definitely looks comfy. I just thought the colors were all over the place

[VelociRapture]

My daughter is two, but I’m already talking about some of this stuff with her in an age appropriate way. Things like when she’ll notice differences between our bodies and ask about it, I’ll explain that our bodies have “messengers” called hormones that start causing those differences when you hit a certain age. Or how she can say “No! I don’t like!” if she doesn’t like something someone is doing or she can say “Yes!” if she does*. Or how I make sure to use anatomical teens like “penis” and “vulva” during diaper changes. Or how I tell her it’s ok to explore her body in the bathroom if she’s curious about something. Once she starts asking about babies I’ll likely introduce the topic of sex in a similar manner, though I haven’t worked out the details yet.

Once she’s old enough for talks about sex I intend to make it clear that it’s her body and her choice, but that I hope she uses protection to keep herself healthy and safe - and that’s regardless of whatever her sexuality turns out to be. I’ll let her know that her dad and I hope she waits to have sex with someone she cares about, but only because it can sometimes make it a more positive experience to look back on later. If she has questions about my past (or my husband's) I’m happy to answer them if it helps her figure out what’s best for her. At the end of the day we just want her healthy, safe, and happy and I think being open and honest is probably the best way to go about that. As her mom I’m going to be one of the biggest influences regarding her views on sex and it’s my job to do what I can to give her the healthiest view possible and combat the harmful messages society is going to send her.

(And I intend to do the same thing with our next baby as well, regardless of what their sex turns out to be.)

*My sister has two boys and has been really great about teaching her oldest about consent now that he’s three. He’ll try to hug my daughter even if she pushes him away (because he’s 3 and that’s what they do) and my sister always steps in to pull him aside gently and remind him that she said no and she’s allowed to make choices best for her body. 

[QuiverFullofBooks]

I had to ask Google what a “shed hunt” is. They’re looking for the antlers that deer shed in the spring. 

[singsingsing]

1 hour ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

I had to ask Google what a “shed hunt” is. They’re looking for the antlers that deer shed in the spring. 

I had to google it too. That actually sounds kind of fun.

[backyard sylph]

On 4/1/2019 at 8:56 AM, singsingsing said:

See, to me that would be someone pursuing sex because they actually really want to have sex, and not just because they feel pressured or shamed because they’re ‘too old’. Every individual can figure out their comfort zone regarding sex. For some people, it’s going to be waiting for marriage. For others, something casual is more appealing. It’s all about what you, the individual, really want to do, without regard to society’s stupid prejudices about what’s slutty, prudish, or weird. 

Yes. Just so. I was speaking to the possibility that someone reading here might be working that all out for themselves, like a few people I know.