Border Patrol Disasters

[Dreadcrumbs]

Pelosi is as dangerously out of touch as I feared.

 

Edited June 23, 2019 by Dreadcrumbs

[fraurosena]

Read the linked article, and then tell me how America isn’t a facist state. @Howl, this happened in Austin. I believe you’re from around there, and if so, this could serve as a heads up, as it could so easily happen to you too.

 

[AmazonGrace]

This lawyer doesn't believe a word she's saying but she's arguing anyway that tortured kids in concentration camps are safe and sanitary. This lawyer is a garbage human.

Her name is Sarah Fabian and she belongs in the Hague

I am boycotting all American products that I can.

[Ozlsn]

25 minutes ago, fraurosena said:

Read the linked article, and then tell me how America isn’t a facist state. @Howl, this happened in Austin. I believe you’re from around there, and if so, this could serve as a heads up, as it could so easily happen to you too.

 

The new visa requirements, including handing over all usernames for social media platforms , is one reason I am really dubious about travelling to the US, and if I do need to travel why I won't be taking my personal phone or laptop/ipad with me. (Work devices I don't access social media accounts from.) Incidentally the increased visa application time for things like conferences - particularly for people with non-European sounding names - is (along with the additional questions at the border and now the social media/5 years worth of addresses requirements) why I'm hearing a lot of people in my field aren't bothering with US meetings but are going to European or Asian ones instead. I have no idea what that means for US people working in the field, but I would think it has to be affecting it.

Edited June 23, 2019 by Ozlsn

[fraurosena]

I cannot adequately put into words how upset I am at these concentration camps for little children. I'm feeling really dismayed and disheartened. I have always said that I am ever the optimist, that I believe that the essential good in people will always prevail. But I am having a very hard time of it right now. Where is the outrage? Where are the protests? Why is nobody actively doing anything to put an end to these atrocities? It's hardly even on the news. It's like nobody really cares, because it doesn't affect them personally. Where is the empathy? Is America so filled with hate and apathy that nobody feels the need to do something anymore? ?

[mamallama]

I believe there is a protest being organized for July 12.  Part of the problem is the sheer number of atrocities these days.  

[fraurosena]

So they're aware of negative news about them, and the children have been 'moved'.

From the article:

Although it’s unclear where all the children held at Clint have been moved, Escobar said some were sent to another facility on the north side of El Paso called Border Patrol Station 1.

I think this statement is extremely disquieting. Why is it unclear where the children went? It's imperative to know where they are. Yes, I'm having very dark thoughts. 

And then there is this:

 

Edited June 24, 2019 by fraurosena

[Dreadcrumbs]

@fraurosena you might want to be careful with that picture/meme you shared. The structure that pile of skulls is in front of looks like a lot like the Kaaba.

@mamallama *nods* Can you let us know when you have more info?

Good news (as good as it gets):

 

[Cleopatra7]

@fraurosena, anything resembling an organized left in the US was stamped out in the 70s and 80s. There are some remnants here and there, but we don’t have the ability to mobilize on the same level as the Civil Rights Movement because the government never wants something like that to happen again. I think a lot of people are bothered by what’s happening but there is a pervasive feeling that nothing can be done.

I looked for what to do online, and they say call your elected officials. Great, my elected officials are all Dixiecrats who have made it clear they don’t care about my opinion. There’s the possibility of protest, but protests in and of themselves don’t do anything. All the guy or gal who works at ICE or whatever has to do is close the blinds and the protest is out of sight, out of mind. Plus, we’re under a ridiculous amount of surveillance that puts both the USSR and Nazi Germany to shame. It’s very difficult to plan anything that can be seen as subversive when your electronics are spying on you or when there are FBI agents embedded at your protest march (this goes back to my point about how the FBI has never and will never be a friend to progressives). Given that the Democrats are still pining after those “white working class” voters in the South they lost after LBJ signed the Civil Rights Bill, there’s no point in expecting them to stick their necks out for an unpopular minority. There’s no reason to feel optimism that things will get any better when the racists and reactionaries are emboldened by the constant red meat Trump throws to them, while the Democrats barely acknowledge the existence of their base.

[GreyhoundFan]

 

[Ozlsn]

@fraurosena we have a similar problem in that both parties have made it clear that they will continue offshore detention so protest feels useless. A lot of grassroots groups have sprung up and organised, frequently through the left-leaning churches but also via other means, and have networked. If nothing else they continue to be a visible protesting thorn in the side of politicians - one of my favourites is "Grandmothers Against Detention of Refugee Children" who have staged knit ins in politican's offices, and who have kept up a visible, angry presence.  

Follow the money is another tactic being followed - encouraging super funds to divest from companies involved in the detention centres has been successful. 

Unfortunately until major groups also come on board because they cannot look away - here it was the Medical Association in particular who are usually more conservative but who have pushed/are pushing for all children to be moved from offshore detention/moved out of detention and for medevacuations to be the call of the doctor, not the bureaucrat that have really shaken things up. So maybe start focusing on the paediatrics associations and organising letter campaigns to them.

Edited June 26, 2019 by Ozlsn

[hoipolloi]

No doubt in my mind that these are concentration camps. Even Russell Moore finds it appalling. When  Jerry Fallwell, Jr tried to challenge Moore over it, Falwell got his worthless ass ratioed into next week. I particularly appreciated the many responses asking Jerry if the Pool Boy was still on *his* payroll.

One of the better things I saw today was this tweet from the publisher of Highlights. Not even Goofus would stoop as low as the US government has done on our southern border:

 

Edited June 26, 2019 by hoipolloi
Adding background -- realized that not everyone knows who Goofus & Gallant are!

[formergothardite]

On 6/24/2019 at 7:03 PM, Cleopatra7 said:

I looked for what to do online, and they say call your elected officials. Great, my elected officials are all Dixiecrats who have made it clear they don’t care about my opinion

I want to do something but what exactly is there to do? My elected officials are Trump lovers who don't give one shit about calls. We had the march for women and the march for science and that did shit in the long run. I really don't know what there is to do. The level of evil we are dealing with can't be take on by a small number of people and I don't see the a huge movement starting to change things. 

[fraurosena]

@Cleopatra7 , @Ozlsn and @formergothardite, I think nobody realizes the power that people actually have. If people really wanted to change things, they could simply stop contributing to the economy, by walking out. By refusing to work. Refusing to comply. Get out in the streets and stay there until things really do change the way the people want them to. Occupy offices of government, until politicians do what the people want. The only thing that is needed, is the actual will to do so. It isn't easy, it isn't without some sacrifices, but it will be effective. All it takes is for people to really, really want change, and to show some fighting spirit. At the moment though, all I see is apathy, a sad shoulder shrugging and moping that nothing can be done because the evil people are in control. It is this defeatist attitude that enables those evil people to keep doing what they do and to stay in power. That is what I find so hard to take. 

@hoipolloi, I like the part in your quote about children being the world's most important people. It put me in mind of Shardik by Richard Adams (author of Watership Down and Plague Dogs). Although it's not easy to read because of its complicated, elaborately descriptive narrative, the underlying message is that children are the most important part of society, and that they should be cherished and nourished and loved. I highly recommend it, because it also deals with the power that religion can hold on society and all the negative effects that can have when it is used to persecute those that dissent.

 

[47of74]

Yeah I was coming here to comment about that low life  Falwell’s recent comments towards Moore. 

Every time Falwell rears his ugly head the words “by their fruits ye shall know them” comes to mind. 

[GreyhoundFan]

Why am I not surprised by the names on this list/

 

[Dreadcrumbs]

1 hour ago, fraurosena said:

@Cleopatra7 , @Ozlsn and @formergothardite, I think nobody realizes the power that people actually have. If people really wanted to change things, they could simply stop contributing to the economy, by walking out. By refusing to work. Refusing to comply. Get out in the streets and stay there until things really do change the way the people want them to. Occupy offices of government, until politicians do what the people want. The only thing that is needed, is the actual will to do so. It isn't easy, it isn't without some sacrifices, but it will be effective. All it takes is for people to really, really want change, and to show some fighting spirit. At the moment though, all I see is apathy, a sad shoulder shrugging and moping that nothing can be done because the evil people are in control. It is this defeatist attitude that enables those evil people to keep doing what they do and to stay in power. That is what I find so hard to take. 

 

You're not from here, are you? 

[apple1]

@fraurosenaI am sure you are aware that I regularly follow your FJ posts and I think you have a lot to contribute to the discussions on FJ.

However - On this subject, you sure have jumped into easy-for-you-to-say "answers" that provide no real solution. As @formergothardite says, in most ways Americans are only left with one solution - VOTE VOTE VOTE when that opportunity comes around.

Staying off work and losing our jobs, losing our homes (adding ourselves to the list of homeless), not being able to feed and provide shelter to our own families including our children and grandchildren helps no one. And without a doubt, that is what would happen.

On top of that - in my own personal situation - I work at a pediatric hospital. Are our child patients - and those include some brought from  around the world for care - to be denied care? Will that help? (FWIW - My employer, who has a lot more influence than I as an individual could ever have - has been very strong on their position on this issue).

Unfortunately there are no easy answers for Americans (or apparently for the rest of the world). I'm pretty much of the same state of mind as @formergothardite.

 

ETA: If the rest of the world has the fix - Somebody tell me why every dang nation that used to be American allies aren't sanctioning the heck out of their relationships with the US? Apparently it's not so easy.

Edited June 26, 2019 by apple1

[fraurosena]

10 minutes ago, Dreadcrumbs said:

You're not from here, are you? 

  From my perspective, where I am is always 'here'. 

5 minutes ago, apple1 said:

However - On this subject, you sure have jumped into easy-for-you-to-say "answers" that provide no real solution.

I agree. It's all pretty easy for me to say. And yes, protesting like that is not as easy or simple to do as a few quickly typed words seem to convey. It wasn't a well thought out post. It was born out of my frustration with the apathy and the defeatist attitude that I see on social media, and I'd love to see some action against this horror. The way these poor infants are being so egregiously treated has hit me very hard, and I so want to see that something, anything, is done about it. I can see nazi Germany happening all over again. This is how it started then, and I'm very scared that it is happening in America right now. I wanted to show that the power of the many can make changes, if only people stand up and act. When the women's marches happened, a glimmer of what can be achieved when people are moved into action was revealed. I'd like to see something like that happen for these indecently and monstrously treated children, infants and babies. I'd like to see the people showing their disgust and absolute condemnation of this administration's policy of holding them prisoner in concentration camps, simply because they are latino non-Americans.

I was glad to see that TRMS was paying attention to the children's plight in last nights show, until the Mueller is going to testify! news broke and she changed the subject. I hope she comes back to it at a later point. 

You are correct that voting is the way to get the perpetrators of these disgusting inhuman practices out. And I've been promoting that a lot, as you may have seen in the other threads. If everybody gets out and votes in enough numbers, then no matter what the interference, I'm confident that the corrupt and traitorous GOP and this horrific administration will be ousted. But the elections are still more than a year away, and I don't think those poor abused children in cages should be forced to wait until then for their plight to be addressed.

[formergothardite]

One of my sisters and I were discussing this and how we do feel so helpless to really do anything. Our representatives are corrupt GOP members who will ignore us. We both have special needs children who we can't really just drop to dash off and protest. 

I want to do something but I don't know what I personally can do at this point in my life. It if very frustrating because I feel like there should be some way to stop this but I don't think that the politicians are going to change so voting them out is IMO one of the top ways to change this. We can't change the republican party, they might pretend to cave if there is a lot of outrage but they will just keep on torturing children all while claiming they aren't. 

[Dreadcrumbs]

2 hours ago, fraurosena said:

  From my perspective, where I am is always 'here'. 

I don't appreciate the cheeky question dodging.

If you're not from the US or living here, I sure as hell am not going to be lectured by you for having a "defeatist" attitude.

There are people doing what they can do that they know will make a difference while you clack away at your keyboard here.

[hoipolloi]

@fraurosena - as a reminder, in the US, many people get health care through their employers. It may not be great health care but it's something, although Republicans are doing their best to degrade & destroy even that.

To defy an employer, even verbally or through social media, or to go out on strike over the sickening abuses on our southern border, as Wayfair employees are doing, risks losing your job AND your healthcare, never mind stuff like food or housing. 

We all do what we can. I set up a recurring monthly donation to RAICES last year. It's not big bucks but it's something and they are on the side of the angels, doing good work. 

[Palimpsest]

FTR, I've lived here for 40 years.  

People power.  Non-violent action, civil disobedience, tax resistance, hunger strikes, boycotts, peaceful demonstrations, that sometimes turn out not to be so peaceful ... and It is rather interesting that this comes up so close to the 30th anniversary of the Tiananmen Square Massacre.  

There is significant risk to individuals (and it is not just losing health insurance or their jobs) who engage in those sort of activities.  Some people can die.  Violently.  As we know.

Some of these movements have worked in the end.  Dictators have been toppled.  I could probably make a list of the ones that have worked in my lifetime.  But they only work when the majority of the population is disgusted by the suppression (often violent) of the people actively resisting.  And the rest of the world gets outraged.

The protest movements that work are also carefully and strategically planned.  They are rarely spontaneous.  Think the Civil Rights Movement.  It was very carefully planned and orchestrated.   

But I can see what @fraurosena is getting at from her seat on the other side of the pond.  She's been following this very closely.  Perhaps her frustration got away from her temporarily.  Mine does that sometimes too.

We saw much outrage and demonstrations at the being of the Orange Monster's administration, but people now seem to feel helpless and resigned.  I don't think apathetic is the right word.  Depressed, disempowered, but we still need to get out the vote.  Every single vote matters at the local and state levels too. 

 I do think people are mobilising.  We will probably see more action closer to the election.  I hope so.  But then I never thought there was a chance in hell that Trump would win the 2016 election.

[hoipolloi]

8 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

There is significant risk to individuals (and it is not just losing health insurance or their jobs) who engage in those sort of activities.  Some people can die.  Violently.  As we know.

I'm old enough to remember Kent State. I also remember how agonizingly slow it seemed for the tide to turn on the Viet Nam War. It happened but it took YEARS for a majority of Americans *and* their elected representatives of both parties to see what a complete disaster it was.

We've already seen what elections can do for bad (2016) and good (2018) so 2020 is critically, vitally important. That's why I'm very concerned over the SCOTUS rulings on the gerrymander cases as well as the citizenship question that the tRumpers are trying to put on the 2020 census. It's undisputed now that it was always intended to improve R electoral results while depressing D turnout with the added benefit of harassing non-white citizens & residents. IOW, a totally discriminatory & calculated choice. 

[Cleopatra7]

If I had my druthers, me and and about a thousand people would be storming the nearest ICE facility and freeing prisoners, but currently I don’t have the 999 other protestors needed to make this plan a reality. It’s not that I don’t want to do something, but rather that the status quo is structured in such a way that voting is considered the only appropriate form of political activism, and even that is getting harder and harder to do. I don’t know if you’re aware of this, but progressive forces in the US have been subjected to heavy surveillance and repression:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-union_violence_in_the_United_States

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Scare

The problem is even worse today, now that police drive tanks and readily deploy teargas and with the surveillance of online activity. Literally nowhere is safe, except for our own heads. Our current situation makes the society in 1984 look like an anarchist commune. The aim of all these dirty tricks was to discourage people from even trying to change things and it worked. The fact of the matter is that the US has and continues to be a very authoritarian culture, where property damage is more concerning than injury to human beings. The very fact that many Americans reacted to Black Lives Matter by stanning the police harder illustrates the point.

Part of the problem is that our political process is designed to be a spectator sport. For all of the talk about how liberal democracy is “the end of history,’ the unstated assumption is that a small minority of the voting age public can and should vote. It’s only been since 1965 that every adult over 21 has been able to vote in the US and there still seem to be plenty of people who think we should return to the intentions of the founders by only allowing white landholding men to vote. For democracy to be an effective tradition, you have to nurture it in your culture, and I don’t think the “actually existing democracies” have done very well at this. It takes more than the presence of elections and voting to make a democratic culture.