Royal Baby is a Boy

[tabitha2]

More than you ever wanted to know about Of Titles courtesy of Royal Forum:

 

The future of the Duke of Edinburgh title

Currently the heir to the Edinburgh title is Prince Charles as the eldest son of the title-holder.
The Letters Patent provision of 'heirs male of the body' means that Charles will inherit the Edinburgh title on the death of his father.

• If that happens while the Queen is still alive then Charles will add the Edinburgh titles to his present titles. When Charles becomes King the Edinburgh title will merge with the crown.
• If Philip outlives the Queen then the Edinburgh title will pass to Charles, who is already King, and thus will automatically merge with the crown.

It is then intended to recreate the Edinburgh title for Edward.

However:

• If Charles predeceases the Queen then the title would pass to William, who presumably would honour his grandmother's stated wish but...
• If Charles and William predecease the Queen then that sitution reaches Harry, who again presumably would honour his grandmother's stated wish but...

There is a scenario whereby the title is not available for anyone to regrant it to Edward:

• William marries and has a daughter (or a couple of daughters) but no son.
• Charles, William and Philip die before the Queen leaving the daughter (or eldest daughter) as the Queen's heir - then Harry inherits directly the Edinburgh title and it doesn't merge with the crown.

The current succession to the Edinburgh title is the same as for the throne in the first four people.

So:

Philip dies
Charles dies
William dies
Queen dies
Harry inherits and it merges with the crown

add a daughter in there for William and it changes:

Philip dies
Charles dies 
William dies leaving the daughter as heiress apparent (can't be replaced by a son)
Queen dies
Harry becomes Duke of Edinburgh and Edward misses out.

The deaths above can happen in any order so long as the three men die before the Queen and William has a legitimate daughter and no sons.

Of course Edward could also inherit the Edinburgh title directly from his father - if: 

• Charles, William, Harry and Andrew all predecease Philip (or again William and/or Harry leave only legitimate daughters) then the title would pass to Edward by direct inheritance (along with the Merioneth and Greenwich titles).

Harry can't inherit the title, as it is currently set up, from Edward as Edward has a son who would inherit it assuming that a new regrant would use the standard Letters Patent of 'heirs male of the body'. It would be strange to set LPs for a new title that grants the father only the title and not allow it to go to his son when his other titles - Wessex and Severn - will go to James.

There is no way that BP can say that Edward would definitely get the Edinburgh title as they are fully aware of the inheritance possibilities and so know that there is a chance that 

a) Edward won't get it at all or 
that he could get it through direct inheritance or 
c) the most likely that he will get it as a regrant when it merges with the crown at Charles' accession.

 

[anjulibai]

1 hour ago, punkiepie said:

While technically true, the royal parent can ask the Queen not bestow HRH titles to their offspring. Prince Edward did this with his children, they are styled as Lady Louise Windsor and James, Viscount Serven, while Beatrice and Eugenie are both princesses and styled as HRHs. Yes, it’s ultimately up to the queen, but for those that have no chance of inheriting the throne, she seems to give deference to the wishes of her children as to what their children are styled as.  

I don't think he'll say no to children being made Princes and Princesses from birth. When Charles becomes king, they'll get those titles anyway, by law. Might as well given them earlier. The same was done for Philip and Elizabeth's children, who, when Charles and Anne were born, wouldn't have automatically been prince or princess without King issuing Letters Patent. 

[Seahorse Wrangler]

3 hours ago, viii said:

I really don't see Charles choosing a different name. I mean, the man is almost 70 years old - I think it would be very odd for him to suddenly choose another name to rule by. He's too well-known as Charles. (Not to be negative, but he might not even be King, the way the Queen is trucking on!)

At best, the guy's going to be a night-watchman king. A couple of years and then the new generation will take over.

[Palimpsest]

10 minutes ago, tabitha2 said:

More than you ever wanted to know about Of Titles courtesy of Royal Forum:

You just have to love the Royal forum!  I ventured on there once and retreated in total confusion.  And whip lash!

Their obsession makes me feel so much better about my weird Fundie watching hobby.  

[metheglyn]

I pay a lot of attention to British royal and aristocratic technicalities, so please forgive the wall of text. I'll address three/four separate issues below.

William's children's titles:

Although people may not realize it, the fact that Charlotte is a princess (and the new un-named baby is a prince) is actually unusual, since William is a grandson, not a son, of the monarch. Without the Letters Patent the Queen issued prior to George's birth, William's children other than his first son (note the specific gender) would have been styled as children of a royal duke (i.e. using William's subsidiary title of Earl of Strathern for the eldest boy and likely "Lord" and "Lady" so-and-so Windsor or Mountbatten-Windsor for the others, not as "Prince" or "Princess"), so only his eldest son would have been an HRH Prince so-and-so of Cambridge until William moved up to 1st in line. Since the Perth Agreement was in train, indicating that regardless of gender the eldest child would be William's direct heir, the letters patent were specifically issued to allow all of his children the title of prince/princess without prior to Charles' accession.

Harry's future children's titles:

As such, following the same rules that applied to William until the issuing of the Letters Patent referenced above, until Charles inherits, since Harry is only a grandson of the sovereign, his children will automatically be styled as the children of a Duke. His eldest son may then be referred to by whatever Harry's highest subsidiary title is. This will remain the case unless the Queen issues another letters patent granting the title of prince or princess to Harry's children. Harry himself has no say in the matter, unless the Queen asks him if he wants Letters Patent issued for his children as well, but it's much less likely.

Anne's children's titles (or lack their of):

Anne's children are untitled because titles don't normally carry through the female line without a special remainder (see Patricia Mountbatten), and Mark Phillips reportedly rejected the Earldom offered to him that would have meant his and Anne's children, Peter and Zara, would be styled as children of an Earl, as was the case with Margaret's husband Antony Armstrong-Jones, who was created 1st Earl of Snowdon. 

Edward and the Dukedom of Edinburgh:

Regarding the Dukedom of Edinburgh, once Philip dies the the title will pass to Charles, who will become 2nd Duke of Edinburgh, but the title will technically cease to exist upon Charles' accession as it will have merged with the crown. Once Charles becomes king the title will be free to be passed on to Edward, but it would be a new creation of the title and he would not become 3rd Duke of Edinburgh, he would be created 1st Duke of Edinburgh in the fourth creation of the title (Philip's creation as Duke of Edinburgh was apparently the third creation of the title).

[tabitha2]

Yeah but it sure is mighty cool  to learn about say the eating habits of the Belgian Royal Family or why the  Queen of Denmark has a pornagraphic Statue of her and her husband in her Garden. To History and culture  buffs this is manna. 

[ViolaSebastian]

4 minutes ago, tabitha2 said:

Yeah but it sure is mighty cool  to learn about say the eating habits of the Belgian Royal Family or why the  Queen of Denmark has a pornagraphic Statue of her and her husband in her Garden. 

Wait, wait, wait. I need to know everything about this, immediately. 

[TuringMachine]

Thanks @metheglyn! So would Harry's children become prince and princess once Charles is king?

[metheglyn]

4 minutes ago, TuringMachine said:

Thanks @metheglyn! So would Harry's children become prince and princess once Charles is king?

Yes, because then they'll be grandchildren of the sovereign in the male line, not great-grandchildren of the sovereign, just the same way William, Harry, Beatrice, and Eugenie are. 

 

For more information, here are the Letters Patent in question. 

The one that specifies everyone except William's children (excluding the weirdness of the Wessex children, since they should technically be Princess and Prince):

The one that gives all of William's children the right to HRH:

The press release that specifies Edward's title, addresses the Wessexes children and the intention to eventually create Edward Duke of Edinburgh:

[tabitha2]

9 minutes ago, ViolaSebastian said:

Wait, wait, wait. I need to know everything about this, immediately. 

 

Queen Margrethe and her recently deceased husband were two  passionate and very artistic people who adored each other. The sculpture is of them making love pretty explicitly. I read about it on Royal Forum and it  was discussed and briefly shown  in a tour she gave of the various Palaces. 

[JordynDarby5]

5 minutes ago, tabitha2 said:

 

Queen Margrethe and her recently deceased husband were two  passionate and very artistic people who adored each other. The sculpture is of them making love pretty explicitly. I read about it on Royal Forum and it  was discussed and briefly shown  in a tour she gave of the various Palaces. 

Now that's something every kid wants to see of their parents. How nice that its in the gardens making easy for her sons and grandchildren to see it.  

[tabitha2]

She probably views it as a tribute and art. Her sons are adults and it’s up to them to keep their children away if they don’t  want them to see it. Her home, her choice.Maybe with all the places on her land  for them to roam they don’t need to go to that area anyhow.

[viii]

I always assumed Peter and Zara didn’t have titles because their father rejected an earldom, not because Anne refused it. 

[metheglyn]

2 minutes ago, viii said:

I always assumed Peter and Zara didn’t have titles because their father rejected an earldom, not because Anne refused it. 

Fair point, I clarified my statement above.

[adidas]

Duh! How dumb are we?!

The delay is because  William wants to call the baby Rufus but is having a bit of trouble convincing the Queen that it’s a good and noble name. 

[Palimpsest]

3 hours ago, justoneoftwo said:

Didn't Elisabeth's uncle also change his name, it was David but then he ruled as Edward?

I don't think Charles will though, he is older and that would be weird, he is known so people might find it odd, and its been so long since that has happened people will find that odd too. 

David of the seven names never technically ruled as anything at all. He abdicated before he was crowned so he is really "Edward VIII" by default.

And not so long ago isn't so long ago as the royal historical cookie crumbles.  Granted Elizabeth II has been Queen for my lifetime, but her dad changed from Albert (Bertie) to George.

As for Charles.  Oh, honey.  Everything about the guy is odd.  Changing his name when (if) he becomes king would be par for the course.

[mango_fandango]

Apparently the last of the Queen’s corgis died recently.  She still has two “dorgis” left (dachshund-corgi cross), they’re called Candy and Vulcan.

I LOVE the word “dorgi”. It sounds like “doggie” said in a v posh RP-style accent 

[tabitha2]

4 minutes ago, adidas said:

Duh! How dumb are we?!

The delay is because  William wants to call the baby Rufus but is having a bit of trouble convincing the Queen that it’s a good and noble name. 

 

 

Well. William Rufus was a king so... 

[anjulibai]

30 minutes ago, mango_fandango said:

Apparently the last of the Queen’s corgis died recently.  She still has two “dorgis” left (dachshund-corgi cross), they’re called Candy and Vulcan.

I LOVE the word “dorgi”. It sounds like “doggie” said in a v posh RP-style accent 

She still has a corgi - she adopted an older one recently whose owner had died. I bet if she has the opportunity, she might take in another older corgi or two.

The one that died recently was a descendant of one of her very first corgies (Sugar?), whose line she's been breeding for 70-odd years. She didn't want to keep breeding because she didn't want to leave young dogs and because her courtiers were concerned about her falling over an energetic puppy.

It must have been hard to make that decision and then to see that line pass out. That was many, many generations of dogs.

[Palimpsest]

1 hour ago, metheglyn said:

Yes, because then they'll be grandchildren of the sovereign in the male line, not great-grandchildren of the sovereign, just the same way William, Harry, Beatrice, and Eugenie are. 

Have you checked out the new rules under the Succession to the Crown Act of 2013? 

As of 2013, girls are not bumped by male preference primogeniture.  So Charlotte and her potential kiddie-winks will take their places before little no-name and his spawn. 

I still want to call little no-name Boris.

 

2 minutes ago, anjulibai said:

one of her very first corgies (Sugar?)

Susan.

[tabitha2]

A princess and her pup: 

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=elizabeth+and+corgi+susan&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari#imgrc=5Y1Ouy0BJ3qgTM:

[GreyhoundFan]

6 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I really hope it’s not Albert though. It’s my least favorite of the choices. Maybe because I don’t like the nick name Bertie like the queen’s dad. Alby would be a better nick name although not much better.

Whenever I hear or read the name Alby, I think of the creepy character from "Big Love", who was based on Warren Jeffs.

[metheglyn]

1 hour ago, Palimpsest said:

Have you checked out the new rules under the Succession to the Crown Act of 2013? 

As of 2013, girls are not bumped by male preference primogeniture.  So Charlotte and her potential kiddie-winks will take their places before little no-name and his spawn. 

I still want to call little no-name Boris.

 

Susan.

Yes, I'm aware. But the new act has no impact on who is a titled Prince or Princess.

Under the current Letters Patent, the title of Prince or Princess normally goes only to children of the male line, which is why Charles's children are Princes, why William's children are Princes/Princess, and why Andrew's children are Princesses, and why Edward's children *should* be Prince and Princess (except for another Letters Patent), but Anne's children are not, and Beatrice's and Eugenie's children will not be. And the current Letters Patent are why Harry's children currently will not be Princes or Princesses (though they will be Lords or Ladies, unlike Anne's, Beatrice's, or Eugenie's kids), as he's in the male line, but only a grandson of the male line not a son of the male line. Without another Letters Patent it won't be until Charles is King that Harry's children will be Princes/Princesses.

The line of succession is not actually directly related to what title the heirs have, as the line of succession descends through both male and female lines, but titles only through the male line. Special Letters Patent actually had to be issued for ELIZABETH's children to have titles, since they're children in the female, not male, line. They were the direct heirs to the throne, but were not legally entitled to HRHs without the Letters Patent that granted her children royal titles.

It *will* be interesting to see if changes are made to automatically also provide titles down the female line once William's children are adults, since having Charlotte's place not superseded by Prince Not-Yet-Named means her potentially untitled children (and their heirs) will remain higher in the line of succession than the titled children of her younger brother.

[JermajestyDuggar]

Susan is an awesome name for a dog. I love giving animals very ordinary human names. Like Steve. Or James. So when you talk to people about them, you confuse the hell out of them. 

“Steve ate his own poo this morning” will get you a few shocked and horrified looks.

[singsingsing]

27 minutes ago, GreyhoundFan said:

Whenever I hear or read the name Alby, I think of the creepy character from "Big Love", who was based on Warren Jeffs.

I think of that Flight of the Conchords song 'Albi the Racist Dragon'.