BRADRICK! Divorce Part 3: Now With Remarriage?

[Sahdnomore]

On 4/20/2018 at 1:01 PM, punkiepie said:

To most fundies, there is no nuanced distinguishing between the various words that can be used to describe a woman of "questionable morals." In that world, slut, whore, hussy, prostitute, harlot, Jezebel, hooker, tramp, trollop, etc., they are all used interchangeably, as if they mean the some thing.   And it really doesn't matter how questionable the morals of said woman are; wearing shapely pants while openly flirting with a man, will get you called the same thing as if you got pregnant out of wedlock, didn't marry the father, and then kept the baby instead of giving it up to some childless fundie couple who would raise them in the fear and admonition of the lord.  I use that as an example, because I was both of those girls at difference points; once, in high school, I wore a  long, modest, red dress to church and a deacon pulled me aside to tell me I was wearing the color of harlots and only a harlot would wear a red dress and since I was wearing red, I must be a harlot.  I wanted to tell him to get a thesaurus.  And then, some years later, in my early to mid-twenties, I got pregnant, wasn't married, didn't want to marry the father, and wanted to raise my baby myself.  They would say it was my brazenness, my lack of shame, my refusal to hide my growing belly which reminded everyone of the sin I committed each time they saw me; this was why I was a used-up, loose slut who couldn't keep her legs shut.  So really, in this case, "prostitute" could mean a woman Peter worked with, maybe they frequently had lunches together and flirted a lot, and she made Petey have impure and salacious thoughts, all the while, Kelly was at home raising their offspring and unwise to what really was making Peter so lusty for her after his long hard day at work (This is probably not the case, but for arguments sake). Or it could mean a person he actually paid money to for the purpose of having sexual relations with him. Or it could be something in the middle of that.  It doesn't matter; once you are deemed to be a woman of questionable morals, you are all of the pejorative words and phrases, and they are all interchangeable and fair game, because you deserve it.  

 

 

I agree that most fundies call all “women of questionable morals” prostitues, etc. 

In Peter’s case, the story being told amongst former Vision Forum folks is about a money exchange with sex workers.

My opinion...I’ve been around Peter and he wasn’t a great guy. I can see him cheating on (naive, trusting, submissive) Kelly from the start. He felt very powerful  in his role as Prince of VF, running around at conferences with his ear piece, authority, and close relationship to DP. Peter once practically shoved a friend of mine out of his seat in the business center of a conference hotel because he “urgently needed to use a computer “. 

[Sahdnomore]

Also, here’s my “no more” story- I broke free at 20, got a degree from a top-rated research University. I met my (feminist) husband there and we have a wonderful life together. We have 2 little kids and we  both have successful careers. 

I’m lucky that I got an excellent education from my SOTDRT. When I broke free, I had somewhere to turn. It was the most painful thing I’ve ever done, but it was worth the cost.

[Palimpsest]

17 minutes ago, Sahdnomore said:

Also, here’s my “no more” story- I broke free at 20, got a degree from a top-rated research University. I met my (feminist) husband there and we have a wonderful life together. We have 2 little kids and we  both have successful careers. 

Bless.  I always like to hear successful escape stories.  I'm so glad you broke free and have such a good life today.

31 minutes ago, Sahdnomore said:

My opinion...I’ve been around Peter and he wasn’t a great guy. I can see him cheating on (naive, trusting, submissive) Kelly from the start. He felt very powerful  in his role as Prince of VF, running around at conferences with his ear piece, authority, and close relationship to DP. Peter once practically shoved a friend of mine out of his seat in the business center of a conference hotel because he “urgently needed to use a computer “. 

I don't think any of our VF moles have had a good word to say about Bradrick's personality.  He's been described as an arrogant, bullying, conceited ass more times than I can count.

He did get grudging respect when it turned out that he was one of the 5 people who confronted Doug Phillips about his sins.  Doug Phillips then turned on him and called him a "destroyer."  Perhaps Peter thought he could get away with it because he was conceited and had that super-special relationship with Doug.

Did you ever meet Nathaniel Darnell and what do you think of him?  He reproached Peter (and all the others who went public about Doug's hypocrisy and sexual assaults on Lourdes) loudly.

Also, what did your parents think about Doug and his fall from grace?  And do they know about him cavorting about Europe with scantily dressed women these days?

[Marian the Librarian]

2 hours ago, Sahdnomore said:

Also, here’s my “no more” story- I broke free at 20, got a degree from a top-rated research University. I met my (feminist) husband there and we have a wonderful life together. We have 2 little kids and we  both have successful careers. 

I’m lucky that I got an excellent education from my SOTDRT. When I broke free, I had somewhere to turn. It was the most painful thing I’ve ever done, but it was worth the cost.

Ah, this was nice to read first thing in the morning! Thanks for sharing more of your story, and good for you and your husband. He sounds like a peach.

The Botkins and Doug Phillips were my gateway to FJ - checked in a new library copy of "Return of the Daughters," said to myself "Hmmm, what's this," linked to Vision Forum, and down the rabbit hole I went. Any info you feel comfortable sharing would be most welcome here, but I would also totally understand if you didn't want to go back in time.

 

[smittykins]

Semi-OT: In packing up my books for the move, I was able to find my hard copy of Quiverfull, which was my introduction to DPIAT, the BRADRICKS!, and the Botkinettes.  In the space of less than a decade, Vision Forum fell, the Bradricks divorced, Anna-Sofia and Elizabeth are still SAHDs, and, well, Doug Phillips Is Still A Tool.

[bea]

Semi-OT: In packing up my books for the move, I was able to find my hard copy of Quiverfull, which was my introduction to DPIAT, the BRADRICKS!, and the Botkinettes.  In the space of less than a decade, Vision Forum fell, the Bradricks divorced, Anna-Sofia and Elizabeth are still SAHDs, and, well, Doug Phillips Is Still A Tool.

That house of cards was pretty precarious, as it turns out. One good shove and it all came down.
So much for changing the entire culture by modeling biblical patriarchy.

[dripcurl]

46 minutes ago, bea said:

 

That house of cards was pretty precarious, as it turns out. One good shove and it all came down.
So much for changing the entire culture by modeling biblical patriarchy.

 

As amusing and well-deserved as their implosions are (except for Kelly of course, she never had a choice) the micro damages across so many Christian circles pop up even in my daily life in some way or another. Seeing a worn out mom who feels like she needs to crank about a baby every year to be holy, husbands with highly inflated egos embarrassing their daughters and teaching their sons to be privileged pricks, kids who think Trump is a great guy and we can trust the system as long as it's right-wing, girls who think that it's their own fault if someone is pervy to them, adults who feel like they need to obey their parents. These families don't always look like the Duggars, these ideals can be woven into conservative circles of all kinds. I grieve for Kelly and the horrible hand she was dealt by being adopted by the Browns. It is kind of rewarding in a way to see how hard and fast these guys' little dominions fell though. The women and children that were hurt in the process deserve so much justice, but hopefully this all will serve as warning as to how toxic domionist ideals are to followers and bystanders alike. 

[Palimpsest]

11 minutes ago, dripcurl said:

It is kind of rewarding in a way to see how hard and fast these guys' little dominions fell though. The women and children that were hurt in the process deserve so much justice, but hopefully this all will serve as warning as to how toxic domionist ideals are to followers and bystanders alike. 

Agreed. 

The problem is that although DPIAT and Gothard toppled publicly, Scottie is still going.  He's down but not out yet.  Doug Wilson is still around, although he just got a cancer dx, altghough Botkin is probably too old to try a come back.  However, there are plenty of others waiting in the wings waiting to set up their own sick empires.  They may have longer tenures.

It is like playing wack-a-mole with this stuff.

[Anonymousguest]

1 hour ago, bea said:

 

That house of cards was pretty precarious, as it turns out. One good shove and it all came down.
So much for changing the entire culture by modeling biblical patriarchy.

 

I was part of a FIC during the heyday of VF, we were listed on Scott Browns site for awhile, but we were separate and under our own leader and umbrella of weird distinctives. I remember sitting in a leadership* conference (probably about 2006) listening to a very charismatic speaker go on about how this church model was going to change the world one father and one family at a time, it was going to effect the entire culture! He talked about the early meetings of our "mother" church, how quickly it had grown, how God had blessed us so far. I was excited to be part of it. I was filled with hope to be in a church that was a "safe" place to raise my children. I was excited to have more children! Our church took the first hit in the fall of the patriarchy in 2008-9 so actually predated the Tool's fall, I think.  Our founder decided to leave the ministry completely and closed his church. We hung on through the fall of VF, and attempted to come up with an alternate name for family integrated so we wouldn't be lumped in with VF. The various congregations slowly faded and in the span of 20yrs the "fellowship of churches" went from meeting in a living room, practically a mega church to now just a few families meeting in homes again. The few families left in the congregation we were in seem to be in it to win it though, with their kids all marrying each other and starting a new generation that will surely be the least educated of all the homeschoolers so far. I wanted to leave in 2011, when I first realized the damage the church was doing to my children, my girls especially (this is when my girls started hitting their teens). We stayed longer than we should have and even though we've been out for a few years we are all still recovering.

Sorry, long. Just your particular working triggered that memory. 

*my husband was in leadership in our church, which is a whole other story, he wasnt the least bit leader-ly or spiritual, never read his Bible, but he likes rules and if you need a job done he's your man, and he'll literally give his shirt off his back of someone needs it. 

[ladyamylynn]

@Anonymousguest Did you have a blog we discussed here?

[Anonymousguest]

15 minutes ago, ladyamylynn said:

@Anonymousguest Did you have a blog we discussed here?

No way! LoL I would never put my life on display. 

[hoipolloi]

32 minutes ago, Anonymousguest said:

I was filled with hope to be in a church that was a "safe" place to raise my children.

This is one of the major poison pills of many fundie cults, from VF & NCFIC to the Pearls. Apart from the misogyny & patriocentricity, the other common denominator of these cults is the promise that if you raise your kids the way they tell you to, your children will grow up & be wonderful, safe, and happy/holy forever. Of course, when this doesn't happen, the cult leaders tell the beleaguered parents, "Your fault - you did it wrong."

N.B. We are ALL vulnerable when it comes to our kids and many of us -- Christian, fundie, Jewish, UU, agnostic, atheist -- would do just about anything if someone guaranteed that our kids would reach adulthood as lovable, loving, and successful people. 

 

[Anonymousguest]

@hoipolloi yep. The speakers at all the homeschool conferences promised me if I would homeschool and protect my kids they could avoid all the evil of this world. I did my part, followed their rules. I protected and disciplined and home educated. And my kids are still normal flawed individuals who have suffered disappointment, heartache, mental illness and more. I did actually have someone say to me that it was a result of me not being fully All In. I let them read Harry Potter, we listened to rock music, wore pants and tank tops and encouraged education. So maybe they had a point. 

[hoipolloi]

@Anonymousguest - your kids sound like good people, not to say normal. I hope that they thrive as adults. 

[Palimpsest]

1 hour ago, Anonymousguest said:

So maybe they had a point. 

Nope. Nope, nope, nope.  Look at how many of the people who went "all in" are eating their words today - or denying reality.  

I think your kids will be OK.  And probably better than OK, because you are out.  And sane. 

[BobJonesBabe]

On 4/22/2018 at 7:58 AM, Palimpsest said:

I don't think any of our VF moles have had a good word to say about Bradrick's personality.  He's been described as an arrogant, bullying, conceited ass more times than I can count.

He did get grudging respect when it turned out that he was one of the 5 people who confronted Doug Phillips about his sins.  Doug Phillips then turned on him and called him a "destroyer."  Perhaps Peter thought he could get away with it because he was conceited and had that super-special relationship with Doug.

Coming from my own experiences in fundie-dom, maybe he was sincere (but arrogant, and conceited, etc...) and worshipped Doug so much that when DPIAT's failure was so great and immoral (especially in that world) he didn't know how to sort out what was truly moral, and what were legalistic rules of VF, but certainly not Biblical (in the literal sens of the word). So he just threw *everything* away, rather than sorting through it all?

(I've watched this scenario happen way too many times. And almost happened to myself and my family, as well.) 

When that's the only world you know, you've been told all your life everything you've been taught is absolute truth and you're in sin for not following every jot of the law...and then there is a giant scandal and you feel betrayed, it's super hard to find someone to help you navigate a new journey. A lot of people do so with success. And a lot just wreck it all. (Think John Shrader's brother.) But both usually end up with some sort of trauma/PTSD in the years that follow, even if they appear outwardly successful. (That would be me and some close friends.) It's hard to put into words how disorienting it can be to realize everything you've been taught was not true after all. 

[MamaJunebug]

On 4/22/2018 at 6:11 PM, Palimpsest said:

Nope. Nope, nope, nope.  Look at how many of the people who went "all in" are eating their words today - or denying reality.  

I think your kids will be OK.  And probably better than OK, because you are out.  And sane. 

@Anonymousguest I so totally agree with what Palimpsest et.al. have written. Life - with its beauties and its ills - just happens. Ignore those who want to implicate you as the source of any so-called failings. Live life to the fullest and stay true to what *you* believe and know to work for you. You’re doing fine, it sounds like!

[Howl]

9 hours ago, BobJonesBabe said:

when DPIAT's failure was so great and immoral (especially in that world) he didn't know how to sort out what was truly moral, and what were legalistic rules of VF, but certainly not Biblical (in the literal sens of the word). So he just threw *everything* away, rather than sorting through it all?

Wow! So much to process in just one sentence, but I think your post has nailed the essential quandary.  Speculative here since I wasn't raised fundie or with a rigid belief system, but: If you've been raised to have unquestioning  belief and have been discouraged from doubting or developing critical thinking skills, what DO you do when it all falls apart?  How  DO you over come crippling guilt? How DO you over come paralyzing fear that there really is a hell and you are going to go there?  How do you deal with the feeling that you have betrayed your family and your parents reject you?  What happens when parents loose their faith or change the focus of their beliefs within Christianity  when the children are still fundamentalist believers?  I can't even imagine how difficult this must be.  When this happened to Bradrick!, he lost his moral compass.  When it happened to Kelly, she apparently stayed on the straight and narrow, didn't question, returned to the Scottie borg, and is starting Round 2 with a Godly man.  

But back to Bradrick! Don't dismiss the extent to which people (men usually, but not necessarily) can compartmentalize bad behavior/sexual acting out that is at odds with what they are living in their public life.  This can range from a simple affair to pedophilia, rape, murder. 

I'm a big fan of what DH refers to as murder porn, like Dateline. The number of people who decide that murdering a spouse will resolve an intractable marriage problem is shocking.   At least some of those people are Christians who decide that murder is a better option, when thinking about how much God hates divorce. 

[punkiepie]

10 hours ago, BobJonesBabe said:

Coming from my own experiences in fundie-dom, maybe he was sincere (but arrogant, and conceited, etc...) and worshipped Doug so much that when DPIAT's failure was so great and immoral (especially in that world) he didn't know how to sort out what was truly moral, and what were legalistic rules of VF, but certainly not Biblical (in the literal sens of the word). So he just threw *everything* away, rather than sorting through it all?

(I've watched this scenario happen way too many times. And almost happened to myself and my family, as well.) 

When that's the only world you know, you've been told all your life everything you've been taught is absolute truth and you're in sin for not following every jot of the law...and then there is a giant scandal and you feel betrayed, it's super hard to find someone to help you navigate a new journey. A lot of people do so with success. And a lot just wreck it all. (Think John Shrader's brother.) But both usually end up with some sort of trauma/PTSD in the years that follow, even if they appear outwardly successful. (That would be me and some close friends.) It's hard to put into words how disorienting it can be to realize everything you've been taught was not true after all. 

I agree so much with this.  I matriculated from the IFB world and I've always likened my exit/disbelief experience to that of a car windshield; everything was very solid until a big rock flies up and makes a teeny tiny, almost imperceptible crack.  It's only a tiny fissure and soon you've gotten so used to it that you never see it, plus the windshield looks fine everywhere else.  But then one day, an acorn falls from a tree, hits the windshield, and the whole things completely shatters.  And that's how it was for me- the tiny acorn was final straw, but really it was because of the big ass rock that made a crack, weakening the entire structure. 

Another reason I think fundies have such a hard time with this "throwing it all away" post-exit, is because they have always believed in the total inerrancy of the bible. So if one part isn't literally true, no part of it can be true; it's why they cling to a literal 24hr/6day creation story. And then they are left with knowing that they have built their whole life on a lie, so now even the good isn't really good.  I think a lot of what it boils down to is still thinking in a black and white manner- it's either all right or all wrong, and they have yet to figure out that this is a world of mostly gray.  That's what happens when you've spent years repressing your critical thinking skills.

[BobJonesBabe]

Yes, so much this. For those born into fundamentalism, you are brainwashed from birth that everything is black and white. So when you start to see gray, your brain still automatically categorizes it as black or white. It's all or nothing. 

Requiring women to wear dresses is put on the same level as not lying or murdering. So when you realize you don't have to wear dresses...it's hard to know what to do with the rest. (And so many other similar (and better) scenarios. My brain is fried and that's what I pulled out first.) 

Not to mention the inbred arrogance. When you're told all your life you're better than everyone else "outside" of your group, if you sincerely believe it, it comes across horribly. Add in some poorly socialized individuals and not so great personalities, and it's horrible. 

That's not to excuse BRADRICK! But in this world, sometimes it's hard to know what is nature and what is nurture, and how malleable either can be once you're outside that world. Not to mention the fact that it's basically a traumatic experience...that you have to navigate on your own if you want to be truly outside the previous influence. And that's facing trauma that you've also been told doesn't exist or is only sinful. No doubt his discovery of DPIAT's downfall was a huge traumatic experience for him. 

Some people are disoriented and bewildered and aren't really sure what their compass should be for a while, while others dig in deeper to their old form or religion or a lighter, but equally sincere, form of it. (Like an Amish man becoming an Evangelical Fundamentalist and thinking he's now on the outside. Or someone migrating from extreme fundamentalism to conservative Evangelicalism.)  

[Hane]

@BobJonesBabe, exactly! This is my problem with the fundie concept that “all sin is created equal”: that, to God, “sin is sin,” whether it be “gleaning pecans” without permission or murdering someone.

[punkiepie]

@BobJonesBabe I was always the thorn in the side of my sunday school teachers, deacons, and the preacher because I would keep asking so many questions when something didn't sound right to me.  Like when I was seven and obsessed with dinosaurs- they tried to tell me that dinosaurs were on earth 10,000 years ago and I was all, no, I've read all the books and they say it was millions of years ago, before there were humans. Of course, that was explained as Satan trying to trick us with science.

But the thing that always bothered me most was how they would handle my questions when they didn't have an answer, or at least one that was suitable enough for me.  If they didn't have an answer, or I didn't understand the answer they gave, every one of those would end up with them using Isaiah 55:8-9, which to paraphrase is, my thoughts are not your thoughts, your ways are not my ways, my ways are higher and you can't understand them.  And I hated that because it was this circular argument of- we have all the answers to every question you could ever ask right here in the bible, but if satan makes you question something and you don't understand the answer given to you in the bible, it's because God's ways aren't meant to be understood by you and you just need to trust and have faith.  

[Jasmar]

My kids and I have left behind the fundie-light lifestyle, in the aftermath of separation and divorce (from a gaslighting abuser). I’ve been amazed at how well they’ve done, but that doesn’t mean it’s easy. Little things like going back and watching all the Disney movies that were off-limits as little kids become huge undertakings in the here and now. Making friends can still be a hard thing, sometimes.

We weren’t a NCFIC or VF family, although I did buy into some of the common teachings. But I was always too much of a rebel to go whole-hog; some things rubbed me the wrong way, like skirts-only, or only hanging out with “like-minded” families. So we lived at the edges of Homeschool Nation.

All this to say that my kids are in a weird place, even if not as hard-off as some raised in strict VF. I’m so proud of who they are and how they’ve reacted to our major life shift.

[Mrs. Bean]

Are there any pictures yet of the happy couple? 

[Marian the Librarian]

21 hours ago, Mrs. Bean said:

Are there any pictures yet of the happy couple? 

I haven't been able to find any, on all the usual social media sites.

You'd think Scottie would be jumping all over the chance to monetize this latest getting-the-picture-right-our-marriages-and-the-marriages-of-our-sons-and-daughters opportunity. After all, what are adult offspring good for, if not to push patriarchal papa's agenda?