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Josh, Anna and the Ms 16: The sins of our fathers


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Honestly if you are looking at a photo of 4 toddlers eating popsicles and Automatically think about child molestatation and have obscene thoughts that’s says more about you than them. Whatever else he

Re: not feeling sorry for Josh about what happened when he was a teenager: Where to begin... I am angry and beyond frustrated that he was not held accountable under the law, the law of the state,

@singsingsing I'm tagging you too, because you asked about this and I thought I'd just clear this up. Apologies for the notification.  What I said and what I meant to say were two different thing

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tabitha2

Objectively His looks are bog standard. Nothing esp handsome or repulsive or notable. So  I don’t see why his own kids need to get a “Yikes” for looking like him.  Honestly Meredith is one of the cutest of the Duggar babies I have ever seen and Michael is a very handsome little boy , much more so than his youngest uncles at that age IMO

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TuringMachine
5 hours ago, DillyDally said:

What a cute post! I'm glad Anna feels confident enough to go back to social media. 

I do wonder where they live now, looks like a rather small apartment (?) with at least 4 doors leading to the other rooms straight from the living room.

They're living at the Siloam Springs house

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nastyhobbitses

On restorative justice: I'm fine with it for stuff and temporary pain. You steal from me or break something of mine, maybe cause me an injury because you fucked up? Sure, I can hear your side of things, accept your apology, and accept your attempts at restitution. Pay me back, pay my medical bills, fix what you broke, help me out while I recover. Go on and sin no more. Everyone makes mistakes or takes the wrong path in life sometimes. 

I'm skeptical of it for serious crimes like murder or molestation. If you ruin or take someone's life, there's no restoring of anything. And I doubt restorative justice would work on the sorts of people who will never feel any remorse for their crimes. The really evil ones will go along with the process and cry crocodile tears about how sorry they are, pay whatever they need to pay, and keep doing what they're doing. Look at the big banks that constantly get caught for stealing money, for playing fast and loose with their clients' money on the securities market, for issuing predatory loans, for aiding criminals and terrorists with laundering their money, for facilitating corruption -- they act like they're sawwy, pay a big fine, pretend to do things better "going forward", and then do something else equally as bad. Look at Truth and Reconciliation Commissions for governments that do terrible things: they'll just find new terrible things to do. 

Sometimes, people just need to be punished. Sometimes, people are just monsters and there's no changing that. Josh, I'm on the fence about. Maybe restorative justice would have worked on him once. It wouldn't now. 

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new espadrille

How did Josh's ugly, rotten self make cute kids? Seriously, they're adorable! 

 

 

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SweetJuly
4 hours ago, new espadrille said:

How did Josh's ugly, rotten self make cute kids? Seriously, they're adorable! 

 

 

Well, I don't believe in the sins of fathers being visited on their sons (or daughters). You can be a wonderful person, no matter your ancestors.

And, to be honest, Josh was quite cute (in a smarmy way) in his younger years. Despite his weight and hair issues, he's still not that unattractive nowadays. Not my type, but not repulsive physically.

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CarrotCake
3 hours ago, SweetJuly said:

Well, I don't believe in the sins of fathers being visited on their sons (or daughters). You can be a wonderful person, no matter your ancestors.

And, to be honest, Josh was quite cute (in a smarmy way) in his younger years. Despite his weight and hair issues, he's still not that unattractive nowadays. Not my type, but not repulsive physically.

If we go just by looks, Josh has always been one of the better looking Duggar boys. Too bad his character is even worse than the rest of the family.

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apandaaries
10 hours ago, nastyhobbitses said:

On restorative justice: I'm fine with it for stuff and temporary pain. You steal from me or break something of mine, maybe cause me an injury because you fucked up? Sure, I can hear your side of things, accept your apology, and accept your attempts at restitution. Pay me back, pay my medical bills, fix what you broke, help me out while I recover. Go on and sin no more. Everyone makes mistakes or takes the wrong path in life sometimes. 

I'm skeptical of it for serious crimes like murder or molestation. If you ruin or take someone's life, there's no restoring of anything. And I doubt restorative justice would work on the sorts of people who will never feel any remorse for their crimes. The really evil ones will go along with the process and cry crocodile tears about how sorry they are, pay whatever they need to pay, and keep doing what they're doing. Look at the big banks that constantly get caught for stealing money, for playing fast and loose with their clients' money on the securities market, for issuing predatory loans, for aiding criminals and terrorists with laundering their money, for facilitating corruption -- they act like they're sawwy, pay a big fine, pretend to do things better "going forward", and then do something else equally as bad. Look at Truth and Reconciliation Commissions for governments that do terrible things: they'll just find new terrible things to do. 

Sometimes, people just need to be punished. Sometimes, people are just monsters and there's no changing that. Josh, I'm on the fence about. Maybe restorative justice would have worked on him once. It wouldn't now. 

First, I'd separate banks, corporations, and governments from actual humans. That's a different though related topic.

For victims of crimes involving human beings, though, restorative justice seems to reduce PTSD in crime victims and for some crimes, reduce the likelihood of reoffending. Forgiveness isn't essential for the crime victims to feel the benefits of the program: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/ted-wachtel/restorative-justice-is-no_b_2567653.html

And one of the links from the NYTimes had to do with a set of parents whose daughter had been murdered by her boyfriend, whom they'd known and loved.  There's no way to ever bring her back, of course, but the parents weren't healing either, by staying angry.  That old saying about drinking poison by staying bitter and expecting your enemy to die isn't too far off.  The man was still punished and held accountable, but they were able to talk with him to come to something closer to a resolution.  

There are some people who don't feel empathy or remorse, and for them, this isn't an option. And restorative justice isn't about denying or removing accountability; it's there to help provide a path to resolution afterwards. 

I am curious about how it would or could work with molestations, as I've mainly read about it being used following other crimes.  I don't know enough about the wiring of brains for molesters.  Pedophiles who offend often do appear beyond any kind of help.  But there are some fascinating programs and studies occurring to try and keep pedophiles from offending: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/oct/16/how-germany-treats-paedophiles-before-they-offend

https://www.thecut.com/2016/04/how-should-society-handle-pedophiles-who-haven-t-hurt-anyone.html

Though perhaps it's their levels of self-control that keep them from offending: http://www.iflscience.com/brain/brains-of-pedophiles-who-abuse-children-are-wired-differently-to-those-who-dont/

Josh, from what we can tell, doesn't appear to be a pedophile.  Instead of any kind of work with his problems, restorative justice or otherwise, everyone seems to have been forced to forgive him, as "good Christians" do. Restorative justice wouldn't work for him so long as he continues to blame Satan and his secret heart fortress for the mistakes he, Josh, is responsible for (which might also be due to his religious brainwashing and cultish ways).  But if he ever grew enough to be fully accountable for his actions, I think he could benefit from confronting what he did and who he hurt. I think his problem is that his worldview allows him to shirk responsibility while his parents continue to coddle him...but he still a human being, one who continues to influence his family and engage with the world. 

Josh is a peculiar one, since he molested as a teenager, but he hasn't appeared to do so as an adult.  He appears to have sought out age-appropriate partners for rather vanilla, consensual endeavors. That's not to give him a pass on the molestations, and if I were Anna, I'd have kicked him out. But I don't know if he's beyond redemption.  I think, like far too many people, he needs more help than he's ever gotten.

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Cleopatra7

Within the last year or so, I have moved to a police and prison abolitionist stance (if you want a quick primer on this concept read Angela Davis’ book “Are Prisons Obsolete”?). As Davis points out, prisons are used to hide social problems, not solve them. We use police and prisons to supposedly solve a number of issues including (but not limited to) homelessness, drug addiction, decaying schools, joblessness, etc. But increasing police and prisons don’t actually solve anything, they just criminalize certain groups of people simply for dating to exist in public. The vast majority of prisoners aren’t lifers and are going to get out. Logically, it would make sense to have educational and vocational programs to aid them when they are released, but such programs were cut ages ago to indicate that we are “tough on crime.” Should we really be surprised that prison recidivism rates are so high when the only thing prisoners are allowed to learn these days is how to be a better and more violent criminal? 

This brings us to the issue of sex crimes. As most FJers know, the vast majority of rapes and molestations are not reported and even those that are reported don’t result in a conviction. While it’s a nice fantasy to think that cops working on sex crimes are like Olivia Benson from L&O SVU, many victims report being mocked and belittled by the police (google “police mocking rape victims” and you will get thousands of results from all over the world). This is especially true if the perpetrator is seen as a “respectable man” with contacts in LE or politics. Furthermore, I would argue that the US legal justice system is not built to convict “respectable men” of sex crimes, since doing so messes with prevailing ideas about the prevalence and nature of such offenses (see the “what about teh menz?” backlash against metoo). Rapists and molesters are “supposed to be” dirty, strange looking men who live in broken down cars and attack women and children at night, not upstanding Christian men with strong testimonies or clean cut Ivy Leaguers or respected executives. And we can’t ruin the lives of these upstanding men because of a couple of mistakes, now can we?

What needs to be done is to eliminate the root causes of sex crimes, which includes fighting against patriarchy, misogyny, and power imbalances. It would also require men and boys to look at themselves and be willing to actively fight against the kind of toxic masculinity and “locker room talk” that legitimates vile attitudes against women and disbelief towards rape/molestation survivors. While I do think there will always be psychopathic outliers like Ted Bundy even in the best society, such people are in fact outliers. If any Trd Bundy proves the point that the worst monster may be the clean cut law student, not the homeless guy in the park. Perhaps one day infant brain scanning could identify which children are prone to psychopathy and they could receive intense therapy to change their ways. We need to be more proactive and less reactive to social problems in general, but we have a long way to go, especially with Jefferson Beauregard Sessions as attoney general.

ETA I would even go so far as to say that a lot of people aren’t even concerned about sex crimes unless some racial “other” is involved. Just look in France where the specter of black and Arab men harrassing white women is grounds enough to reject the pleas of asylum seekers, while at the same time supposed “intellectual” criticize the metoo movement as being indicative of Anglo-American Puritanism and worry these accusations will interfere with their pursuit of eroticism. The same dynamic  is at work with Michelle Duggar’s insistence that cross dressing men want to rape women and girls in public facilities, while throwing her own daughters under the bus so she could protect the “testimony” of her precious eldest son.

Edited by Cleopatra7
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Crazy Enough to Join

Josh molested his victims as a child. He cheated as a legal adult. That is also part of factoring in how awful his actions were.

Child molestation = way, way, way worse than cheating

doing anything bad as a child=significantly better than doing the same act as a 28 year old man.

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albireo

@Cleopatra7 and @amandaaries thank you so much for your informative links and well-thought-out points. I have a few RL acquaintances who are advocates for police and prison abolition, and I've been trying to digest their links and arguments (which are similar to yours) over the past several months. While I'm all for drastically reducing the prison population, reducing the role of police, ending prison slavery, and revamping how we see justice and "criminality," including actions I've taken in my own life, there are still a few concerns about restorative justice and abolition that I haven't been able to work through quite yet. I guess basically I want to believe, and the arguments I've seen for these practices seem good, but they still don't answer all of my questions.

The biggest overarching question I have right now is: what would such a system look like? Perhaps I'm too cynical, but it seems as though getting rid of the entire system would lead to the organic development of something reminiscent of a vigilante justice system for those who have been wronged. I'm concerned that could be even more discriminatory (especially racially), if that's even possible, than what we have now.

So I guess we need something codified, and definitely working with marginalized communities to prevent further harm. The restorative justice methods currently employed, while promising, seem to only be capable of being...I guess, an adjunct to a system where we punish wrongdoers as a matter of course. I'm not sure that even all those who were harmed and are interested in restitution would be in favor of non-punitive action. In the NYT article linked, the Grosmaires asked for mercy, but still thought Conor should be punished somehow. Basically, how do we account for the desires of those who are harmed and choose not to forgive, or those who are harmed and forgive, yet still believe that restitution and reintegration will not occur immediately? What are rehabilitation methods for violence against others that work, protect those who could be harmed by recidivism, and aren't just prisons in all but name? A system of humane rehabilitation/reintegration sites reminds me more of what the prison systems in other countries (Norway comes to mind) are trying for, rather than of a prison-free society. What confuses me is that this concept of how prison abolition would work looks more like prison reform with a new name. So then is it really abolition? Similarly, would a community-focused solution for apprehending those who do harm and setting up restitution for harm done, in conjunction with those harmed, be the same as a police force, just differently structured? Are my definitions of police and prison too broad?

Apologies if there's something I'm missing here, or if it was unfair to everyone here to ask the questions I asked. I'm definitely not thinking creatively enough. I haven't read Davis's book yet. Maybe these are questions that haven't been answered yet. The people I know (and you all too) just seem to understand "it all" so easily. I guess I get the "why," or most of it, but not the "how."

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apandaaries

albireo Personally, I think if we really want to end crime we have to start with how we treat our population, especially the impoverished. We can't have entire families growing up in broken (literally falling apart) homes with rats, no heating, and no food...but that was Viola Davis' experience: http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/03/03/viola-davis-childhood_n_15134326.html

We have to give people the means to escape poverty, gain educations,  and live with dignity. 

There will always be some subset of the population that is psychopathic and/or dangerous.  IDK exactly what to do about those who will always be likely to reoffend. But we have to do more to prevent crime earlier by being more humane to all around us. We have to focus more on true rehabilitation and support post-prison to keep people from reoffending.

Cleopatra7 posted in QFoS about "Christian rehab" centers for addicts that were basically forced labor camps: http://newsok.com/federal-lawsuit-accuses-oklahoma-drug-recovery-program-of-labor-law-human-trafficking-violations/article/5567543

https://www.revealnews.org/blog/chicken-workers-sue-say-they-were-modern-day-slaves/

Much of our system of policing and imprisoning does have very racist roots, especially in the South, just as racist Jeff Sessions dog whistled about the “Anglo American history of law enforcement.” Check out Slavery by Another Name; it's beyond horrifying: http://www.pbs.org/tpt/slavery-by-another-name/watch/

We just have such a long legacy of using prison for further abuse that we really have to find some other alternative. As with our (lack of) gun control, we are creating too many avoidable problems.

ETA: Whoa.  I had a lot more written out that got eaten somehow.  No idea what happened to it, but I was comparing Norway with North Dakota.  Gonna toss in a few more links while the edit box is open. https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2017/07/north-dakota-norway-prisons-experiment/

http://www.businessinsider.com/an-american-warden-visited-a-norwegian-prison--and-he-couldnt-believe-what-he-saw-2014-10

How Sweden is closing prisons: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/dec/01/why-sweden-closing-prisons

And much more about how a focus on rehabilitation is better than on punitive punishment.  No idea where the rest of the comment went. Weird.

Here's this guy's idea about an anti-prison: https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/12/18/prison-could-be-productive/punishment-fails-rehabilitation-works

I promise I had a much better written response here, but I cannot retrieve the rest of the old comment that got eaten and I'm afraid of the edit box closing.  Please assume it was more coherent than these half-thoughts and links.

Edited by amandaaries
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KelseyAnn

Two thoughts: 

1. Meredith could be a gerber baby, she's so damn cute. 

2. Yes, Hannie does look like Josh. But, I looked like my brother, too until I was 15 and my face filled out a bit more. Johannah is just at the awkward stage we all  had. 

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artdecades
On 2/14/2018 at 6:42 PM, JenniferJuniper said:

Johanna is Josh as a 12 year old girl.  Poor child.... children.

Poor Johanna is going through her awkward tween years in the public eye. We saw with her older sisters that it is just a phase and Duggar girls tend to exit puberty a lot better than Duggar boys. I am sure that both Johanna and Mac will be gorgeous by the time they are ready for quivers of their own.

On 2/14/2018 at 6:43 PM, tabitha2 said:

  Why Yikes? 

because they look like tiny joshes and I hate josh. I am not holding it against the children, it was a joke.

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Cleopatra7

@albireo, one big step in my path towards prison/police abolition was the realization that both of these concepts are relatively new (like less than 200 years old). The modern prison was originally conceived as a reform of more punitive forms of corporal punishment by use of work, isolation, and prayer. This is why prisons are called penitentiaries, because the original idea was that prisoners were doing penance for their crimes in a religious sense. The modern American police form grew out of antebellum slave patrols and are, in my opinion, inherently problematic. Prisons may have come from a reformist place, but the police were never like that. In any case, once you realize that prisons and police have not always existed, you can begin to envision new ways to solve problems that don't rely on the status quo. Black and Pink, an abolitionist organization that supports LGBT prisoners, has a good resource section containing books and links to YouTube videos:

http://www.blackandpink.org/resources-2/abolition/

The Vikki Law video about how to resist gender violence without police or prisons is especially good and helps explains how the legal system tends to fail victims and protect perpetrators. Part of the problem with American society is that we are told (falsely) that the status quo is the best thing that we can aspire to, and that no further social or political evolution is possible. History has ended, to borrow a phrase from Francis Fukuyama, and there are no alternatives besides liberal democracy and free market neoliberal capitalism. Once you realize that there are alternatives and that the US will certain fall, just as previous empires and social forms have in the past, you are freed up to imagine new ways to organizing society. I have been involved with Food Not Bombs for almost a year, and it has really opened my eyes as to how individuals and groups can resist the "there are no alternatives" mindset.

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jumpingjill
On 2/15/2018 at 8:09 AM, CarrotCake said:

If we go just by looks, Josh has always been one of the better looking Duggar boys. Too bad his character is even worse than the rest of the family.

Now that the younger twins are getting older and filling out Jer is probably the best looking duggar boy. 

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CarrotCake
10 hours ago, jumpingjill said:

Now that the younger twins are getting older and filling out Jer is probably the best looking duggar boy. 

True, that’s why I said ‘one of’ ;-)

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On 14/02/2018 at 4:43 PM, Rachel333 said:

Eh, you could parse those words for a while, but ultimately she said that child molestation is worse than cheating. Josh's adult misbehavior, while obviously not as bad as molestation, is still pretty bad (I would certainly consider that abuse as far as his relationship with Anna is concerned), so I wouldn't take issue with what she said.

I actually find it pretty horrifying how many people don't take cheating seriously and just brush it off as not that bad without considering how devastating it can be for the cheater's victims.

With all  STDs out there being so prevalent the awful thing with cheating is the gift you being home to the unsuspecting spouse! Which can kill or lead to infertility and many other issues

On 15/02/2018 at 5:50 AM, SweetJuly said:

Well, I don't believe in the sins of fathers being visited on their sons (or daughters). You can be a wonderful person, no matter your ancestors.

And, to be honest, Josh was quite cute (in a smarmy way) in his younger years. Despite his weight and hair issues, he's still not that unattractive nowadays. Not my type, but not repulsive physically.

Sins of the fathers is the fact that people tend to hold grudges and carry the blame through. Those kids are cute as anything however once they are older they will have to hear time and again about their father.. that is damaging to their psychés and will cause harm. Its goes on on Anna instagram constantly....she is reminded of her husbands issues everytime she posts..

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In the wake of the Parkland shooting, I am reminded of how Smuggar suddenly started showing an interest in guns and gun shows after Sandy Hook.  And I hate the bastard all over again.

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Plexus31Wife
On 2/14/2018 at 5:55 PM, KelseyAnn said:

Just because you came from dirt, doesn't mean you have to wallow in it. 

I love this. So well said. I'm actually thinking of making it my official life Motto!

We are all more than the sum of our pasts.  

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KelseyAnn
14 minutes ago, Plexus31Wife said:

I love this. So well said. I'm actually thinking of making it my official life Motto!

We are all more than the sum of our pasts.  

Thanks, it helps me a lot when I get down low and think I'm predestined for a mediocre existance because of my family curse. 

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Beermeet

1. @Cleopatra7. I think you are my favorite informative/ opinion giving poster.  You are seeking a higher religious education and your perspective as a black woman is very valuable to me.  I deeply thank you for sharing.  

2. Are we not discussing this?!  

The reddit link is highlighted in article.  Reddit kinda sucks, imo.  I've dipped.  Lurker only.  The AMA's like this are always lame.  

http://www.intouchweekly.com/posts/anna-duggar-miserable-post-scandal-154521

3.  Which one of us is girl_?!  Obviously don't answer that......good job though.

 

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Beermeet

@Cleopatra7. Another thing, the origins of what is now our police.  Yep.  I did learn that prior and it helped shape my view on what is truly going on.  Also, hello!  Why they treat black people diffently than white.  It's ingrained. It's why it started.  The whole premise of jail *should* be only people who are violent.  The fact that drug dealer/ sellers get more time than rapists tells me plenty.  Oh, I'm sorry, I meant the police are amazing, humans to be upheld no matter what.  * major eyeroll and heaviest sarcasm ever*

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