Josh, Anna and the Ms 16: The sins of our fathers

[Sky with diamonds]

47 minutes ago, Kittikatz said:

I'm seriously sick of the poor Josh going on here.

The reality is this wasn't a police investigation. The statue of limitations had passed. They legally could not investigate what had happened. The police conducted interviews with a social worker.  These interviews were not part of any investigation file. They were carried out in order to determine, not what happened in the past, but rather if anything illegal had happened inside the statute of limitations. If one of the girls had slipped and said that Josh had touched her improperly after he got back from Prayhab, then there would have been an investigation and possibly charges and counseling and/or rehab.

If these records were part of an investigation file, they would not have been disclosed. If Josh was charged and they were part of his court file, they would not be disclosed. If JBoob had requested the interview notes be destroyed after the police indicated they were not proceeding with an investigation, they would never have existed to be disclosed.

Then, after dropping the ball repeatedly, and totally failing their children, these parents went on to agree to a reality show. It's like JBoob thought his family were above any sort of consequences.

Josh and his victims all got screwed over in how this situation was handled, but not by the police. They got screwed over by their greedy control freak parents.

No poor Josh from me. I detest what he did, and I detest his parents for not helping the people he abused and not handling it properly at all.

If anything, I feel very sorry for the people he abused. It still galls me that Jessa and Jill did that Megan Kelly interview while Josh was hiding his unapologetic ass away.

[Carm_88]

I think you can feel bad about the victims in the situation and not feel bad for Josh. You can blame JB and Michelle for all of this coming out because they didn't get Josh the proper help nor did they follow the law. However, the girls do not deserve to be outed. I will always stick to it that it is a victim's right to tell their story. It was mishandled from start to finish. 

[Fascinated]

I agree, Carm, but, so help me, I do have some pity for Josh. I know I shouldn’t but I just do.  I think his ideas about sex as he was growing up were completely fucked up by his parents. And they should have got Josh help after the molestations. They shouldn’t have married him off as an answer to his sexual problems. I don’t know him personally so I don’t know if he’s a douchebag or not. I do think Anna truly loves him so perhaps he has become a better man.  I simply don’t know. I know that’s a crapton of unpopular opinions, but, that is how I feel. 

[SamiKatz]

I've never "poor Josh"ed either.  All of my posts have been directed toward the girls and that they deserved some form of protection from being exposed as Josh's victims, especially because they were minor children at the time. Although I do think however, that all victims should be protected from exposure unless they chose to release the information.

Josh should have had to face due process for his actions.

 

 

[Carm_88]

@Fascinated Oh I agree. I feel pity for Josh as well. A whole lot of crazy went down in that house. 

[viii]

I’m another one who has pity for Josh. His parents failed him completely. 

(I also don’t believe he’s a child molester, since he was a minor at the time) 

[Rachel333]

I wonder where the Duggars, particularly Josh, would be now if the molestation report hadn't come out. For Josh the Ashley Madison stuff would have likely been exposed a few months later anyway, which in itself would have marred the family image.

[Kailash]

5 hours ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

I too think it's absurd. May be a cultural difference. Here the report would have been sealed because he was a minor when he committed the crime, the age at the time when the report is written isn't considered relevant.

I don’t think it’s a cultural difference. I think some posters don’t care that a minor’s crimes were revealed in this way.  Because it’s Josh Duggar.

I am not a Josh apologist in any way. I think he is a hypocrite and a liar. I think his parents failed him (and his siblings) in many ways. I think it was wrong that this got leaked. 

[viii]

I think the Ashley Madison scandal would have still come out, but it probably would have been swept more easily under the rug and/or claimed to have someone posing as josh. 

[Carm_88]

I think the Ashley Madison scandal would still have come out, however, I don't think that would have killed 19 Kids and Counting. 

[Nargus]

30 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

I wonder where the Duggars, particularly Josh, would be now if the molestation report hadn't come out. For Josh the Ashley Madison stuff would have likely been exposed a few months later anyway, which in itself would have marred the family image.

It would have been more 'what a damn hypocrite' rather than 'what a completely morally bankrupt waste of a human being'.

[Jenn The Heathen]

The Ashley Madison scandal still would have broke and it would have been Anna defending him on Megyn Kelly.

[VelociRapture]

48 minutes ago, Nargus said:

It would have been more 'what a damn hypocrite' rather than 'what a completely morally bankrupt waste of a human being'.

 

13 minutes ago, Jenn The Heathen said:

The Ashley Madison scandal still would have broke and it would have been Anna defending him on Megyn Kelly.

I think these are the most likely scenarios. It would have reflected badly on Josh, but I think the rest of the family would have escaped most of the criticism - and rightfully so because Josh is the one who chose to seek affairs. His upbringing likely played a role in why, but ultimately he willingly made a choice and he’s the one who would deserve the blame for that.

I also agree that Anna would have been the one trotted out to defend him on camera instead of Jill and Jessa. I think JimBob and Michelle would have defended him as well and the three of them would have received pushback for it, but not nearly the same amount or intensity that they received after the family defended him after the molestations scandal. The show would have suffered, but I don’t think it would have ended it entirely because the main focus was always on the Duggar parents. It’d be easy enough to just drop the Smuggars from filming to appease any fans upset about it because Jill and Jessa were both married and ready to step up more at that point.

[Bad Wolf]

If the parents had dealt with things correctly at first, then the 2 younger girls would not have been touched. Letting Josh stay, and have access to the girls after his first confession, was beyond negligent. If it had been reported then, the record would have been sealed, and the whole family would have got proper counseling. Molestation affects the whole family, not just the victims and perpetrator.

[Glasgowghirl]

I do have a small amount of pity for Josh because of how screwed up his upbringing was but that doesn't excuse what he did as a teenager or what he did to Anna. While I believe he loves Anna and he probably thought marrying Anna would solve his issues, it didn't and the chances are he will cheat again.

If the police report is found to leaked illegally then they do have a case, I feel for all the older kids including Jana and JD, while they were not direct victims of Josh they probably felt guilty about not being able to protect their sisters from Josh, they were young and it wasn't up to them. Michelle and Jim Bob failed all the kids big time. Jana and JD are still probably holding off courting because they know little work their parents do when it comes to raising the kids. 

[justmy2cents]

Am I wrong in remembering that the show was cancelled before Ashley Madison came out or was it only suspended and then killed off after the 2nd scandal?

[metheglyn]

33 minutes ago, justmy2cents said:

Am I wrong in remembering that the show was cancelled before Ashley Madison came out or was it only suspended and then killed off after the 2nd scandal?

Per the timeline on Wikipedia, the first InTouch article came out May 21, 2015,  Josh resigned his FRC position the same day, TLC suspended the series on May 22 and stopped airing reruns, a second InTouch article on a second police report was published on June 3 (with more details), the Megyn Kelly interview was June 5, and the show was officially cancelled on July 16. The Ashley Madison attack was announced by the hackers on July 15, but the data wasn't released until July 21. Josh's account was apparently cancelled in May after the first scandal came to light, but his Ashley Madison-related statement was only released on August 20. He entered "rehab" on August 25.

[CarrotCake]

I do feel pity for Josh-as-a-kid. I do not think he is a pedophile but the girls were the only females 'available' to him.

His parents are to blame for his fucked up desires. This does not mean that I think he has no blame at all, especially when it comes to how he reacted when it came out and about the Ashley Madison scandal. I do not feel pity for Josh-as-he-is-now.

I think Josh is a victim of his upbringing but he is also so arrogant that he will never take responsibility and therefore he is also a total asshole.

[Eternalbluepearl]

I think we will debating Josh Duggar and his actions til the end of time. I have nothing new to add to it. I just think this must all suck for his victims. Having his parents continue to support him, and for 4 of the victims they are also your parents...that's gotta be awful. 

[Glasgowghirl]

3 hours ago, CarrotCake said:

I do feel pity for Josh-as-a-kid. I do not think he is a pedophile but the girls were the only females 'available' to him.

His parents are to blame for his fucked up desires. This does not mean that I think he has no blame at all, especially when it comes to how he reacted when it came out and about the Ashley Madison scandal. I do not feel pity for Josh-as-he-is-now.

I think Josh is a victim of his upbringing but he is also so arrogant that he will never take responsibility and therefore he is also a total asshole.

Yes, As an adult he is responsible for what he did to Anna, I understand why he is the way he is but he has never taken responsibility for his actions. If Josh had to come out and acknowledge what he did and the impact his actions both as a teenager and an adult had on both those around him and apologise and mean it, then maybe I'd have more sympathy for him

[AlternativeVoice]

8 hours ago, metheglyn said:

Per the timeline on Wikipedia, the first InTouch article came out May 21, 2015,  Josh resigned his FRC position the same day, TLC suspended the series on May 22 and stopped airing reruns, a second InTouch article on a second police report was published on June 3 (with more details), the Megyn Kelly interview was June 5, and the show was officially cancelled on July 16. The Ashley Madison attack was announced by the hackers on July 15, but the data wasn't released until July 21. Josh's account was apparently cancelled in May after the first scandal came to light, but his Ashley Madison-related statement was only released on August 20. He entered "rehab" on August 25.

These dates legit ?  the show got axed the day after the Ashley Madison hack was announced by the hackers? he cancelled his account in May...around the time he knew the molestation scandal would be exposed. He knew they were digging for him & they might find that as well. Was Josh the one to break the news to the family about Ashley Madison or did they find out like the rest of us? I don't remember if they ever referenced how they found out....cause if Josh got wind that Ashley Madison was hacked( July 15) I'm sure he went running immediately to Pops before they found out from anyone else. Wasn't he the first to always confess according to his parents? So when TLC cancelled the very next day..was that coincidence? I say all this because I feel like we are led to believe that the family found out via reports just like we did and then he immediately sought treatment...but seeking treatment/dlist hideaway must have been a result of the backlash. By August 20-25, it would have been well over a month since the family/TLC knew but no rehab then.  

[Four is Enough]

12 hours ago, Bad Wolf said:

. Molestation affects the whole family, not just the victims and perpetrator.

Truer words were never spoken.

[NakedKnees]

Add me to the chorus of people who do pity Josh-as-a-child and are inclined to believe that he may not have molested his sisters or anyone else if he'd been given a proper sexual education and been tought "good" and "bad" in the areas of sexuality and touching. It infuriates me that anyone can support unscientific abstinence-only sex education after learning about the Duggars' situation. To a lesser extent, I pity him because the patriarchal system he grew up in probably dulled his critical thinking skilled by protecting him from truly facing challenges in life (and from getting the education he may have desired, etc).

However, I can't go light on him as an adult. I don't understand how every somewhat positive post in the JinJer thread (just for example) is expected to include a disclaimer on how Jeremy still preaches hate and strict definitions of what constitutes Jinger being "free" or not, yet over here, Josh's personality is discussed more frequently on the levels of whether he is hypocritcal, dangerous, worthy of pity, etc.

This guy would still be trying to move up the corporate ladder in a hate organization if he could. He's still probably trying to instill terrible values in his kids. God forbid it ever comes up, but I'd be very surprised if he learned from JB's and Michelle's mistakes and would handle the situation differently than they did. Seriously, fuck adult Josh. Zero pity there.

Whether he might win his lawsuit or not is sort of a non-issue in my opinion of Josh, if that makes sense. It's interesting to follow from a legal perspective though.

[nickelodeon]

1 hour ago, NakedKnees said:

I don't understand how every somewhat positive post in the JinJer thread (just for example) is expected to include a disclaimer on how Jeremy still preaches hate and strict definitions of what constitutes Jinger being "free" or not, yet over here, Josh's personality is discussed more frequently on the levels of whether he is hypocritcal, dangerous, worthy of pity, etc.

Josh is the worst and I'm definitely in the zero-generosity camp! That said, I think it's good that people are willing to discuss and re-discuss Josh's actions and reach new understandings while grappling with the fact that there's a lot we'll never know. The threads of fawning comments that are prefaced with some nondescript reference to "horrible beliefs" but avoid confronting those beliefs in a meaningful way are MUCH less interesting.

[Carm_88]

2 hours ago, NakedKnees said:

However, I can't go light on him as an adult. I don't understand how every somewhat positive post in the JinJer thread (just for example) is expected to include a disclaimer on how Jeremy still preaches hate and strict definitions of what constitutes Jinger being "free" or not, yet over here, Josh's personality is discussed more frequently on the levels of whether he is hypocritcal, dangerous, worthy of pity, etc.

I think it's because Josh is seen as less dangerous now. People aren't going to be sucked in by Josh's pretty wife and kids, they know what he is. Jeremy, on the other hand, does a great job of pushing himself and Jinger as normal Christians. When that's not the case, Jeremy's hateful treatment of Catholics and Judaism is appalling. People, however, refuse to see that because Jinger is wearing pants.

Josh will never be the poster boy for fundies again.