Josh, Anna and the Ms 16: The sins of our fathers

[SapphireSlytherin]

I think @singsingsing wrote the book on smarts. But small-town/podunk PO-leese departments are limited in their resources financially, and limited by the available people to fill the jobs. 

[Nikedagain?]

4 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

Great name considering the recent political scandals with a certain pornstar.  The names have gone downhill since Mason and Penelope. 

HAY HAY!

Stormy might just be the one who saves us all...

#stormytakesdown45

[metheglyn]

3 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

You did. There's also Saint West. 

In vaguely stalkerish fashion, I decided to track all of the (often crazy) baby names in the Kardashian-Jenner collective down. Most names was from Wikipedia articles, but the others are from news magazine articles, so it's all public information.

Kourtney Kardashian and Scott Disick (divorced)
>Mason Dash Disick (son)
>Penelope Scotland Disick (daughter)
>Reign Aston Disick (son)

Kim Kardashian and Kanye West (married)
>North West (daughter)
>Saint West (son)
>Chicago West (daughter)

Khloe Kardashian and Tristan Thompson (couple)
>Unnamed daughter (due 2018)

Rob Kardashian and Blac Chyna (former couple)
>Dream Renee Kardashian (daughter)

Kendall Jenner (single?)
>None so far

Kylie Jenner and Travis Scott (legally Jacques Webster) (couple)
>Stormi Webster (daughter)

Brandon Jenner and Leah Felder (married)
>Eva James Jenner (daughter)

Brody Jenner and Kaitlynn Carter (engaged)
>None so far

Burt Jenner and Valerie Pitalo (couple)
>Bodhi Burton Jenner

Casey Jenner and Mark Marino (married)
>Isabella Marino
>Francesca Marino
>Luke Marino

So some normal sounding names from various members, and then some rather wacky names from some of them. (Looking at you Kim and Kanye.)

[viii]

I REALLY wish Kourtney would have gone with Aston. It’s not a great name but it flows with Mason and Penelope so much better. 

I will always have a guilty pleasure love for North West’s name. It was so far out there but so predictable. I was really disappointed they haven’t named a kid Wilde yet. Maybe the fourth, lol. 

Jenner kids have better taste than Kardashians. 

Still worried about Khloe’s taste, tho. 

[metheglyn]

13 minutes ago, viii said:

I REALLY wish Kourtney would have gone with Aston. It’s not a great name but it flows with Mason and Penelope so much better. 

I agree. And even if they both wanted to keep the same two names, Aston Reign Disick rolls off the tongue easier than Reign Aston Disick.

[singsingsing]

Damn, how many of these people are there? And is this where the ‘Bodhi-Bob’ guess during the baby prediction game for Jessa’s last child came from?! Bodhi-Bob was one of my favourites, only surpassed by Flame Calvin. 

[sparklymagie]

5 hours ago, flycat said:

You are right! Sorry for the mix up!

It's easy to do! I'm sad that i knew it. I only did because I'm really into makeup and Kylie has a popular makeup brand and just released a weather themed collection in honor of her daughter. 

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

1 hour ago, metheglyn said:

Kourtney Kardashian and Scott Disick (divorced)

Kourtney and Scott aren't divorced because they never married. So, they're a (former couple), like Rob and Chyna.

Ugh! Why do I know this junk?! 

[AliceInFundyland]

10 minutes ago, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

Kourtney and Scott aren't divorced because they never married. So, they're a (former couple), like Rob and Chyna.

Ugh! Why do I know this junk?! 

The Kardashians are "interesting" because they have become famous for doing basically nothing except generating a brand. Say what you will about Kris Jenner, she used her connection, Caitlyn's (then aBruce) speaking talent, and a well-timed sex tape to launch an empire.

They work really hard to make sure we know who they are.

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

6 minutes ago, AliceInFundyland said:

They work really hard to make sure we know who they are.

And I find their reality show weirdly amusing.  I don't think I've ever spent any money because of them, though. I've never bought a magazine because they were in it, and I've never bought a product because it was advertised on e! So, they've only half-succeeded in my case. 

[Jenn The Heathen]

I forget that Caitlyn has kids from previous marriages.  I think they try to stay out of the spotlight and I can’t blame them.  Although, wasn’t Brody Jenner on The Hills or Laguna Beach?

5 hours ago, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

And I find their reality show weirdly amusing.  I don't think I've ever spent any money because of them, though. I've never bought a magazine because they were in it, and I've never bought a product because it was advertised on e! So, they've only half-succeeded in my case. 

Same here!

[SapphireSlytherin]

Do the Kardashians have their own topic here? If not, maybe they should?

(I have less-than-zero interest in them and couldn't care less about them.)

[RainbowSky]

I can't be the only idiot who thinks between the papers being released and published, SOMEONE could've used some extra fancy black bars, or some fucking White Out and blocked out more? Just because they supposedly legally blocked out what was needed, someone could've done extra. Then said they had to go through and do more because the county or whatever didn't bother and then they'd have looked like heroes. 

[scoutsadie]

14 hours ago, KelseyAnn said:

Oh my god! NO, no that was NOT intentional. Oh my god. I would NEVER! I do apologize more profusely!

It most certainly WAS a typo! I am so ashamed, oh my god. 

@KelseyAnn - you might be able to get a mod like @Coconut Flan to edit the post to say "she," just so the unintentional typo doesn't remain that way for posterity... I think they can do that if you ask. (I admit that when I first read your comment, I wasn't sure whether you meant to misgender Jazz, but I believe you saying it was a typo, and am concerned future readers might be offended by it before getting to these explanatory posts...)

[VelociRapture]

2 hours ago, RainbowSky said:

I can't be the only idiot who thinks between the papers being released and published, SOMEONE could've used some extra fancy black bars, or some fucking White Out and blocked out more? Just because they supposedly legally blocked out what was needed, someone could've done extra. Then said they had to go through and do more because the county or whatever didn't bother and then they'd have looked like heroes. 

I’m not an expert, but I honestly don’t think they redacted everything they should have legally. I believe Arkansas state statute says no identifying information about victims can be released unredacted and the police failed miserably in that regard. They left in gender specific pronouns, Joy’s age at the time of the assault, that a victim was a daughter of Jim Bob’s, name of the town they lived in, and other things I’m probably not remembering. To be fair, the sheer amount of redacting needed for the names of the siblings in the household alone was a massive giveaway - each statement began by listing who the parents were (I believe these were unredacted as well) and the siblings living in the family home at the time the reports were taken (all redacted.) Theres simply no way to disguise the fact that you’re redacting a massive number of sibling names. 

I honestly don’t think there was anyway to truly protect the identities of the four sisters completely due to that and the fact that there were only five sisters at the time of the assaults. The only victim we weren’t positive about was Jill, but even she could be easily guessed if you read closely enough - the non-victim sister stated she was studying for her GED at the time of the reports and Jana was the only sister old enough for that. So because of that I truly believe the reports should not have been released at all. The rights of the victims absolutely has to come first.

ETA: As far as InTouch redacting more prior to publishing, I do agree that ethically it would have been the right thing to do (or choosing to summarize the reports in the article and only revealing portions of the report as needed to prove what they were saying was true.) Legally they didn’t need to though, so I do think the police bear far more blame here than InTouch does. 

[srlm]

17 hours ago, Jenn The Heathen said:

It’s expensive to raise 5 kids and Josh is used to the easy 19KaC money and probably a decent salary when he was working in Washington.  I know car salesman can make a decent living, but how many people want to buy a used car from Josh of all people?

Do you think Josh was volunteering for 19KAC too?  

[metheglyn]

9 hours ago, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

Kourtney and Scott aren't divorced because they never married. So, they're a (former couple), like Rob and Chyna.

Ugh! Why do I know this junk?! 

Oh whoops! I carefully checked everyone else and somehow missed that. Unfortunately it's too late for me to fix it, so my error will be preserved in perpetuity. :-P Thanks for the correction!

[Glasgowghirl]

Yes, the report may have hid the names but it was obvious from all the information that four of the victims were his sisters and which sisters were abused. Even before any of them outed themselves it was easy for people to work out. Jill and Jessa probably felt obliged to defend Josh and their parents, I fell sorry for them given that Jill had only just had Isreal and Jessa was pregnant, it should have been a happy time for them and they didn't need this being brought up, none of the victims did. I think both Jill and Jessa were mad that they defended Josh only for another scandal to come out.

On the subject of Kardashians:

Mason Dash, not horrible but not one I'd choose.                                        Penelope Scotland, Penelope is a nice name and Scotland is a nice name for a country not a child.                                                                         Reign Ashton, Ashton Reign would have been nicer, Reign is more of a girls name to me.

North West, hated it but it grew on me. Her nick name Nori is cute           Saint West, horrible, Wild west would have been better.                             Chicago West, Why not go for Key West if you gonna use a place name.

Stormi and Dream are not great but not horrible 

 

 

 

[viii]

Just like Mason Dash honours Kourtney, Penelope Scotland honours Scott. I think it’s a sweet. 

[Nargus]

14 hours ago, Jenn The Heathen said:

I forget that Caitlyn has kids from previous marriages.  I think they try to stay out of the spotlight and I can’t blame them.  Although, wasn’t Brody Jenner on The Hills or Laguna Beach?

Brody Jenner was indeed.  Right when the show was wrapping up, but still popular, a girl I went to high school with won some kind of radio contest, she and her friend got to go on a 'date' with him.  Hair & makeup done, fancy dresses, limo.  I don't remember if they got flown somewhere for it, or if he was in Alberta for some reason.

[Don'tlikekoolaid]

Don't really understand why a police report would be released at all. No charges were laid and no criminal conviction happened. I'm happy it did see the light of day but maybe it should not have happened.  I don't think Smuggly was even arrested and I do feel badly for the girls.

[VelociRapture]

8 hours ago, Don'tlikekoolaid said:

Don't really understand why a police report would be released at all. No charges were laid and no criminal conviction happened. I'm happy it did see the light of day but maybe it should not have happened.  I don't think Smuggly was even arrested and I do feel badly for the girls.

If I remember correctly no arrests occurred because the statute of limitations had already expired. So yes, Josh was never convicted. I think that’s kind of bullshit in a situation like this where you have people admitting to what happened, but I don’t know enough about law to be able to properly argue against statute of limitations further.

The reports were legally eligible for release because they weren’t sealed. Had his parents done the right thing by reporting him to police after the assaults then any reports taken would have been sealed due to his age. I’m not sure what would have happened if he had been arrested in 2006 though because he was an adult at that point, but as the facts stand the reports weren’t sealed and were eligible for release according to FOIA. I’ve already made my thoughts clear as to believing the state statute should have taken precedence though, so I won’t write that out again. 

I’m very glad that the Duggars suffered a massive hit to their public image, but I’m not happy at all that it came at the expense of their children and especially not at the expense of the four daughters who were assaulted. I honestly think Arkansas (and likely a lot of other states too) needs to take a look at their laws and Police training on FOIA and state statutes to figure out how best to prevent this from happening to any other victims.

[pandora]

3 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

I honestly think Arkansas (and likely a lot of other states too) needs to take a look at their laws and Police training on FOIA and state statutes to figure out how best to prevent this from happening to any other victims.

Seconded! Less than four year is a really short statute of limitations, it's hard to think that could be considered best practices for  dealing with sexual offenses, victims are often encouraged to blame themselves and it can take time to decide what they want to do.

[Kittikatz]

People have a right to know that the police are following process and doing their jobs.

People also have a right to know that someone was investigated or interviewed regarding a criminal matter.

If the Duggars hadn't been famous, odds are nobody would have requested those interview files. If the Duggars weren't on TV, it would have been unlikely that anyone could have identified any of the victims.

Yes, the redaction sucked. But most of that is a reflection of the piss poor way the Arkansas FOI is drafted - which isn't on the police, it's on the State Legislature. In my jurisdiction, we have better legislation and could redact things very differently.

I'm a survivor of childhood abuse too. The thought of it being out there is painful, but, as other posters stated, if Jim Bob and Michelle had gone to the police and reported it as they should have, they could have gotten all their children help, and all of those records would have been sealed as part of Josh's juvenile court file. The reality is, the interviews were even up for release because the Duggars had let it go past the statute of limitations for prosecution. Because none of the girls indicated in their interviews that there had been any subsequent abuse, those interviews were not part of any criminal investigation file. In their gusto for saving themselves and Josh from embarrassment, the Duggars put their daughters in a position where they could be revictimized.

Also, freedom of the press is a huge thing in liberal democracies. The press obtained the records legally, and they had every right to publish them. Horrible for the victims being interviewed, but the press' function isn't to be nice or compassionate. It's to disseminate information out.

[singsingsing]

I'm wondering if Jim Bob and Michelle were afraid that their kids would be taken away from them if they reported Josh. I think they made terrible, terrible decisions when it came to dealing with him and his issues and their victimized daughters, but I can at least understand the terror of thinking that you might lose your children. What I absolutely cannot understand is them then choosing to star in a reality TV series, knowing that this was lurking in their (very recent) past.