Zoey Joy Webster Is Now Here (update)

[lumpentheologie]

On 4/1/2018 at 3:12 PM, PennySycamore said:

That new mom and new baby need to be at home, resting and getting to know one another!  And get that damn headband off Zoey's head!

I don't really feel comfortable telling women who recently gave birth that they shouldn't leave the house if they want to and feel up to it. She should do what feels right to her. She can still get to know the baby outside! 

(Also I dislike the assumption that the mother should definitely be home bonding with the baby, but if the father goes back to work the next day, that's fine. Shouldn't the parents take turns bonding?)

[VelociRapture]

I think people need to keep in mind that one person’s postpartum experience won’t be the same as another person’s. Some women aren’t able to get out of the house for a while for many reasons - because they’re too tired, aren’t feeling well, are struggling emotionally, etc. Others, like Alyssa, are able to get out and/or dress up soon after giving birth. As long as everyone is healthy, happy, and making the right choice for them and their family that’s all that counts.  

[QuiverDance]

10 minutes ago, lumpentheologie said:

I don't really feel comfortable telling women who recently gave birth that they shouldn't leave the house if they want to and feel up to it. She should do what feels right to her. She can still get to know the baby outside! 

(Also I dislike the assumption that the mother should definitely be home bonding with the baby, but if the father goes back to work the next day, that's fine. Shouldn't the parents take turns bonding?)

Totally agree with this, though I think some of the posts here are inspired by concern that Alyssa feels pressure to be perfect. I personally do not get that impression and see a bit of Giselle Bundchen type post partum perfection smugness. It IS a form of humble bragging. Good for her, though. I would have bled all over that white dress at 4 days pp. 

[Illmarryyoujana]

2 hours ago, QuiverDance said:

 It IS a form of humble bragging. Good for her, though. I would have bled all over that white dress at 4 days pp. 

Posting pictures of her kids and family dressed up on easter with emojis as a caption is humble bragging? I don’t think she thought that much into it. Edit—I think she’s just living her life. She seems to have easy births, so perhaps she is neither sore nor tired. And probably just excited to have all three of her girls here on what is the most holy day of her faith. She obviously planned ahead for this given the matching outfit. I don’t think this was meant to make her seem better than anyone, it’s just who she is. 

[QuiverDance]

49 minutes ago, Illmarryyoujana said:

Posting pictures of her kids and family dressed up on easter with emojis as a caption is humble bragging? I don’t think she thought that much into it. Edit—I think she’s just living her life. She seems to have easy births, so perhaps she is neither sore nor tired. And probably just excited to have all three of her girls here on what is the most holy day of her faith. She obviously planned ahead for this given the matching outfit. I don’t think this was meant to make her seem better than anyone, it’s just who she is. 

I disagree.  I think her — or anyone’s—carefully curated social media presence is exactly the opposite of “just living her life.”  I don’t think it’s insidious, and I don’t mean to imply she is a bad person for this, but she is clearly presenting a pretty picture, not necessarily an accurate one, and she is CERTAINLY presenting it in a way that shows she is proud, and I DEFINITELY think she wants to present a “better than you” image. That’s the fundie brand, after all. We discuss it here constantly! 

No intent to get into a heat d debate over it; it’s simply my read of Alyssa. I find her (actually all of the Bateses) a bit off putting.  They creep me out. 

[nausicaa]

17 hours ago, nastyhobbitses said:

I don't like the implication that to be a good mother, you have to stop caring about your appearance and just sit at home all day until your baby is five years old or whatever. And don't dare to put any kind of gender signifier on your baby, no matter how cute and temporary it may be. If you're not wearing something you can whip your boob out of for breastfeeding in an instant, you're a selfish sheep who would rather starve her baby. If you take a nice family photo with your three beautiful children, you're fake and narcissistic. 

And look, maybe Alyssa is the worst mom in the world. Maybe she's Joan effin' Crawford mixed with Eminem's mom. But I admit that I take "how dare she put on makeup and a nice dress if she's feeling pretty much fine after birth and wants to get out of the house with her kids for a holiday event" rather personally. 

Yeah, the assumption that Alyssa enjoying fashion and caring about her appearance must be some sort of dig at everyone else is weird to me. I think she might just like makeup and fashion? And she seems to have pretty easy labors, so maybe she really is feeling great? Or maybe she wasn't, but having nice Easter pictures was important to her? 

I'm the same Type A sort as you, and I love Easter and spring fashions. So you better believe I'd be Kate Middleton-ing the hell out of my new family as soon as I could after childbirth.  The passive-aggressiveness towards enjoying makeup, fashion, fitness, and decorating that pops up on these boards sometimes is strange for a feminist site.

Someone on the Erin thread just made fun of her for putting on makeup for her first picture with Everly, saying she was fake and silly, and also felt the need to point out that Erin still looked "swollen and bad." That was nice. 

[Illmarryyoujana]

1 hour ago, QuiverDance said:

I disagree.  I think her — or anyone’s—carefully curated social media presence is exactly the opposite of “just living her life.”  I don’t think it’s insidious, and I don’t mean to imply she is a bad person for this, but she is clearly presenting a pretty picture, not necessarily an accurate one, and she is CERTAINLY presenting it in a way that shows she is proud, and I DEFINITELY think she wants to present a “better than you” image. That’s the fundie brand, after all. We discuss it here constantly! 

No intent to get into a heat d debate over it; it’s simply my read of Alyssa. I find her (actually all of the Bateses) a bit off putting.  They creep me out. 

Except I don’t think these photos are just for social media. Special crafted holiday family photos are as old as the camera. People create memories and normally want them to look pretty to look back on, along with candid shots as well. I’m not trying to argue either, but I think we need to remember that social media didn’t invent these kinds of photos. 

[feministxtian]

6 days after #2 was born, I was at the airport picking up his dad (thank you Navy for remote training shit). I will never forget I was wearing a white button-down shirt tucked into my jeans and wearing a belt. I looked and felt FANTASTIC. I'd only gained 20 lbs with that pregnancy and the day after he was born I was only up 3 lbs from pre-pregnancy and that was all in my boobs. Oh and I drove myself and the 2 kids 40 miles from our house to the airport...

So, for everyone thats BEC over Alyssa...well, some folks just look and feel great after having a baby...

[singsingsing]

Can we not discuss the fact that fundamentalism, and Gothardism in particular, forces insane standards on women, and particularly on mothers? That the Bateses have a long, long history of attempting to sell their brand of fundamentalism to people by making themselves and their lives look as shiny and happy and perfect as possible, while taking care to disguise or wave away the dark underbelly? That the entire point of their reality TV show is to portray themselves as wholesome and attractive, and their lifestyle as something to yearn for and aspire to? That they embrace a political ideology which involves making large families and constant childbearing appear as positive and pleasant as possible? So in that context, is it really BEC to question why Alyssa and her daughters are perfectly coiffed, off to church, and posing for Instagram photos mere days after she gave birth? The answer doesn't necessarily have to be negative, but we have to at least be allowed to have the discussion. Otherwise what is the point of this forum?

[nastyhobbitses]

3 hours ago, nausicaa said:

Yeah, the assumption that Alyssa enjoying fashion and caring about her appearance must be some sort of dig at everyone else is weird to me. I think she might just like makeup and fashion? And she seems to have pretty easy labors, so maybe she really is feeling great? Or maybe she wasn't, but having nice Easter pictures was important to her? 

I'm the same Type A sort as you, and I love Easter and spring fashions. So you better believe I'd be Kate Middleton-ing the hell out of my new family as soon as I could after childbirth.  The passive-aggressiveness towards enjoying makeup, fashion, fitness, and decorating that pops up on these boards sometimes is strange for a feminist site.

Someone on the Erin thread just made fun of her for putting on makeup for her first picture with Everly, saying she was fake and silly, and also felt the need to point out that Erin still looked "swollen and bad." That was nice. 

THIS. In general I'm not a fan of the way (IMO) people on here sometimes act as though any fundie woman who seems to enjoy fashion, makeup, doing her hair, and that sort of thing must be brainwashed into enjoying it/doing it. Alyssa's husband/family dragged her out of bed and gave her a full makeover because otherwise she was unfit to be looked upon. Jeremy has a weird wardrobe-dungeon in his basement where he stores hundreds of pairs of artfully distressed skinny jeans that he forces Jinger to wear. I get the sense that even if Jinger and Alyssa were militant atheists with degrees in Gender Studies, they'd still probably just...like wearing nice clothes and doing their makeup. Yes, they're in a cult that emphasizes unrealistic beauty standards for women, and we can't discount that influence, but fuck, man, sometimes people just like clothes. 

I think that the trend of passive-aggressiveness towards outward displays of femininity is wider than FJ. I was guilty of taking part of it in high school: look at me, I'm not like those girls because I don't waste time on makeup and designer clothes. I'm not dumb and fake like them. I'm cool and real because I wear Converse instead of Tory Burch shoes. She wears short skirts, I wear T-shirts...I understand why the phenomenon is there -- we've been told for large chunks of our lives that the way Those Girls dress and groom themselves is how we ought to, and it's easy and IMO kinda justified to resent and chafe at that. But I came to realize that there's absolutely nothing wrong with the opposite: liking Tory Burch shoes. Enjoying the artistry of makeup. Wearing nice clothes because they make you feel confident. Wearing short skirts and being the cheer captain. It doesn't make you stupid or brainwashed. When I went to my five-year high school reunion out of sheer curiosity/desire for schadenfreude/fuck it I'm home anyway, guess what? Those Girls had become doctors, teachers, law students, associates at investment banks, marketers at tech startups, nurses, and NGO workers. Hard to get to those goals if you're dumb and fake. 

I think it's important to critique unrealistic standards (because lord knows it's not fun to be sixteen-year-old me crying in a Kohl's dressing room because your legs have muscles and aren't straight up and down like a model's, so you look like a fat troll in skinny jeans), but I also think that we should stop conflating femininity with weakness or stupidity. There's a rather unfortunate implication that to be a "real" woman or a "real" feminist or a "smart" woman, you have to be more like a (Western traditional view of a) man. Not the same level of unfortunate as "to be a real/worthy/godly/lovable/fuckable/Good woman you have to look and act like a 1950s housewife", but unfortunate. 

I know that in Fundie World the line between "yeah, she actually just likes wearing that stuff" and "she has no other choice" can blur very easily, but it annoys me when fundie women (or secular women) are shamed for ostensibly liking something that doesn't fit our standards of non-fundie womanhood. 

[JillyO]

3 hours ago, singsingsing said:

Can we not discuss the fact that fundamentalism, and Gothardism in particular, forces insane standards on women, and particularly on mothers? That the Bateses have a long, long history of attempting to sell their brand of fundamentalism to people by making themselves and their lives look as shiny and happy and perfect as possible, while taking care to disguise or wave away the dark underbelly? That the entire point of their reality TV show is to portray themselves as wholesome and attractive, and their lifestyle as something to yearn for and aspire to? That they embrace a political ideology which involves making large families and constant childbearing appear as positive and pleasant as possible? So in that context, is it really BEC to question why Alyssa and her daughters are perfectly coiffed, off to church, and posing for Instagram photos mere days after she gave birth? The answer doesn't necessarily have to be negative, but we have to at least be allowed to have the discussion. Otherwise what is the point of this forum?

I'm kind of surprised by your post. Who is disallowing the discussion? I certainly don't see anyone trying to say people can't voice their opinion on this matter. Different posters simply disagree on the answer to your question. As in most things in life (and FJ).

Personally, some of the things that have been said on this thread have really rubbed me the wrong way. Especially the posts saying stuff like "What is she doing out and about? She should be at home bonding with her child" and "What is she wearing? How can she feed her child in this dress?" Since some other people seem to agree with me, naturally there was some push-back against those posts. Doesn't mean (general) you can't question if getting dressed up and going out was truly Alyssa's idea.

[TuringMachine]

Sorry Bradley, Lexi is the cutest Bates baby.

[Melissa1977]

On 1/4/2018 at 7:15 PM, llg1234 said:

The idea of being 4 days postpartum and taking a (almost) 3 and 1 year old, plus a newborn to church sounds like a nightmare, to me. I get that it's Easter, but I can't imagine she was able to get a whole lot out of the sermon. I never enjoyed church though, so maybe she really did want t

How do you know she's gone to church? those pictures could have been easily taken in their garden. Maybe John took the girls to church while Alyssa rested. Or their church has a nursery. Or they went with a bunch of Websters who helped with the kids. I mean, my first thought is "people are normal and do normal things", but they're fundies, so maybe they attended a 2 hours ceremony while the girls sat quiet because they're blanket trained.

I had my 2 kids at summer (summer in Barcelona is as hot as spring in Florida, I think) and it's not difficult to go out with a newborn when the weather is nice. While I was concerned about the noise and I only went to quiet places, my kids were outdoors since they were a few days old.

[singsingsing]

8 hours ago, JillyO said:

I'm kind of surprised by your post. Who is disallowing the discussion? I certainly don't see anyone trying to say people can't voice their opinion on this matter. Different posters simply disagree on the answer to your question. As in most things in life (and FJ).

Personally, some of the things that have been said on this thread have really rubbed me the wrong way. Especially the posts saying stuff like "What is she doing out and about? She should be at home bonding with her child" and "What is she wearing? How can she feed her child in this dress?" Since some other people seem to agree with me, naturally there was some push-back against those posts. Doesn't mean (general) you can't question if getting dressed up and going out was truly Alyssa's idea.

I agree with you. That stuff rubs me the wrong way too, and I don't think it's a particularly constructive way to have the discussion. But at the same time, I also see so much push back against the slightest whiff of criticism sometimes in the Bates threads that I start to wonder if actual critical discussion is being encouraged or shut down at times. I don't think shaming women who put a lot of effort into their appearance, or are able to get dressed up and go out two days postpartum is a good thing, but I also think that sometimes, some people can lose sight of the fact that we're not talking about them, or the average woman, we're talking about people steeped in fundamentalism and how their cult may be affecting their behaviour. It was more of a general observation than a criticism directed at any specific person, which is why I didn't quote anyone in my response.

[QuiverDance]

13 hours ago, Illmarryyoujana said:

Except I don’t think these photos are just for social media. Special crafted holiday family photos are as old as the camera. People create memories and normally want them to look pretty to look back on, along with candid shots as well. I’m not trying to argue either, but I think we need to remember that social media didn’t invent these kinds of photos. 

Not sure this makes sense to me.  You don’t think she chooses the most flattering pics out of many to post to Instagram? You don’t think this is thought out? If it’s just for the purpose of a personal scrapbook, why broadcast it? 

I don’t understand why it’s difficult to make the leap that Alyssa is doing some self-aggrandizement here. Just about anyone on social media is trying to put their best feet forward. Part of that impulse to share our best is to make others jealous. That’s pure human nature. And it is 100% what Alyssa is doing. Unfortunately in her case, there are overtones of promotong a misogynistic cult as the key to wholesome godly happiness. 

All of these things we are discussing here: desire to get out and be among others, desire to dress your children in pretty clothing and show off your family, and desire to appear as an “example” of how to do it right, can be occurring simultaneously. 

[Illmarryyoujana]

1 hour ago, QuiverDance said:

Not sure this makes sense to me.  You don’t think she chooses the most flattering pics out of many to post to Instagram? You don’t think this is thought out? If it’s just for the purpose of a personal scrapbook, why broadcast it? 

 

Sure she does, but so do millions of other women. This isn’t a fundie thing, it’s a human thing.  People have always picked their best shots to show people, before social media even. And I’ve never thought of this as humble bragging, which is what the original point of my comment was. 

[HereticHick]

9 hours ago, TuringMachine said:

Sorry Bradley, Lexi is the cutest Bates baby.

I'm sorry we can no longer be friends. #bradleybatesismybae

[VelociRapture]

People on this site have the right to question and discuss the choices Alyssa or any Fundie makes. That’s the entire point of the site and it is not something to be taken personally most of the time (unless the person taking offense is also Fundie. I get being offended if a Fundie reads here.) Now, there were one or two comments this time that did come across to me as BEC or as over generalizations and I do think we should be careful to avoid those in the future - but the majority of the comments seemed pretty reasonable to be honest. 

People need to remember that Alyssa is a member of a religious movement with some pretty harmful beliefs. Some of those beliefs include strong suggestions about the way women look and act. It’s absolutely reasonable that people have questioned whether she enjoys dressing nicely so soon after giving birth or if she feels pressured to do so because of those beliefs, just Iike it’s reasonable to wonder how Alyssa would act if one of her girls had an interest that wasn’t in line with IBLP teachings. So long as Alyssa continues promoting this lifestyle via social media and the family show she will continue to be fair game for discussion and criticism.

That said, there are some conversations on this site that pop up over and over again that I’m getting really tired of. This is one of them.* I think I’m just going to peace right out of future discussions from now on because I honestly don’t think I have the stamina and energy to keep debating this anymore. Just be respectful, don’t make over generalized statements, and try to remember that most of the criticisms tossed Alyssa’s way aren’t directed towards normal (non-fundie) people. 

(I mention Alyssa specifically because this is her thread, but this obviously goes for any Fundie on here. If they’re promoting harmful beliefs publicly then they’re fair game for reasonable criticism and speculation.)

*This is just how I personally feel. Everyone else is absolutely free to continue discussing this whenever they want. I’m just at that point where I don’t feel up to discussing it endlessly.  

[QuiverDance]

51 minutes ago, Illmarryyoujana said:

Sure she does, but so do millions of other women. This isn’t a fundie thing, it’s a human thing.  People have always picked their best shots to show people, before social media even. And I’ve never thought of this as humble bragging, which is what the original point of my comment was. 

Got it.  I guess we just disagree on what humble bragging is.  Again, I agree:  Everyone does this.

And, I hope I'm not overstating, but I simply think the reason it's relevant here is that unsophisticated consumers of these images could easily be taken in by this seeming perfection and think that these very harmful religious beliefs/practices = whitewashed happiness.  

And with that I will totally stop beating this dead horse and leave it alone because we are essentially saying the same thing in a different way.

[Bazinga]

I'm late to the conversation, but I do want to give an opinion. I do agree, some women feel great after having babies. However, it's nieve to think that celebrities, even reality celebrities don't perpetuate the idea that women look like models, with trim bodies days (sometimes just hours) after having their babies. Now I don't fault Alyssa. Why would anyone want to post a picture of oneself looking like holy hell after having a baby? Everyone wants to look cute and lovely with their fresh new baby. However, when I see her in her white dress, my immediate reaction was also, how is she not bleeding all over this thing? Maybe I'm a total freak of nature who bled for weeks after having my babies. So to circle back to my original point, I think women in media in general (not just fundies) give the appearance of perfection after birth. I think what would be nice would be to see prominate women wearing comfy pants with a post baby belly visible... because I feel this is most indicative to real life. Maybe then, more women would be more comfortable showing that childbirth is hard work, blood, sweat, and puffy faces and all.

[RainbowSky]

On 4/2/2018 at 2:43 AM, nastyhobbitses said:

 

I don't like the implication that to be a good mother, you have to stop caring about your appearance and just sit at home all day until your baby is five years old or whatever. And don't dare to put any kind of gender signifier on your baby, no matter how cute and temporary it may be. If you're not wearing something you can whip your boob out of for breastfeeding in an instant, you're a selfish sheep who would rather starve her baby. If you take a nice family photo with your three beautiful children, you're fake and narcissistic. 

 

If the breastfeeding comment was in reference to my curiosity, I had my 3mo attached to my boob when I saw their picture. After a large chunk of my life (almost a third) looking for things that are easily pulled down or crossed on the front, it stood out to me with a brand new baby in the picture. I still do think it's pretty, just see that she isn't popping a boob out of it. I'd assume pulling up a dress to the top of her chest is against modesty standards even though she obviously doesn't dress like her family of origin anymore.

I'm a breastfeeding mom and it didn't occur to me that she wouldn't be so that's what my mind saw upon seeing her dress. Oh, and that it would not stay the same color anywhere near my kids. Or me for that matter lol.

[VelociRapture]

10 hours ago, Bazinga said:

I'm late to the conversation, but I do want to give an opinion. I do agree, some women feel great after having babies. However, it's nieve to think that celebrities, even reality celebrities don't perpetuate the idea that women look like models, with trim bodies days (sometimes just hours) after having their babies. Now I don't fault Alyssa. Why would anyone want to post a picture of oneself looking like holy hell after having a baby? Everyone wants to look cute and lovely with their fresh new baby. However, when I see her in her white dress, my immediate reaction was also, how is she not bleeding all over this thing? Maybe I'm a total freak of nature who bled for weeks after having my babies. So to circle back to my original point, I think women in media in general (not just fundies) give the appearance of perfection after birth. I think what would be nice would be to see prominate women wearing comfy pants with a post baby belly visible... because I feel this is most indicative to real life. Maybe then, more women would be more comfortable showing that childbirth is hard work, blood, sweat, and puffy faces and all.

The Duchess of Cambridge obviously doesn’t step out in sweatpants or looking like a hot mess, but one of my favorite photos of her is from right after George’s birth:

I hadn’t been around many pregnant women or new mothers when George was born, so this was honestly one of the first times I remember seeing a new Mom with a postpartum belly. The fact that she’s such a public figure makes it better in my opinion because I think it helps normalize the fact that many women don’t have perfectly flat stomachs immediately after giving birth. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with fitting into your prepregnancy clothing or having a flat stomach right after the birth, but I think it’s great when public figures help show that isn’t always what happens - I think it can help women not feel as pressured or as bad for not “bouncing back” immediately. 

(I also thought the Duchess of Cambridge looked really lovely in a slightly understated way and the new parents just looked genuinely happy as they showed off their little one. I like photos of new parents best when they capture real emotions, regardless of how nice they look. That’s why I love the photos of my husband and I holding our daughter for the first time so much. We looked a bit of a hot mess, but we also looked genuinely thrilled.)

[nokidsmom]

On 4/1/2018 at 1:47 PM, artdecades said:

Alyssa doesn't look like she just had a baby. I mean that as a compliment

No she doesn't and especially considering this is her third one.  

I wish she would quit the headbands and on a newborn?  Poor Zoey.

[formergothardite]

I don't really blame her for making sure she looks nice for public photos. I would make sure I looked as amazing as possible if my photos were going to be seen by lots of people. 

ETA: I still think she is almost certainly a superficial twit, but looking nice for public photos is pretty normal behavior. She just happens to luck out in that she can give birth and bounce right back into looking like she did before. 

 

[Seculardaisy]

On 4/2/2018 at 8:53 PM, nausicaa said:

Yeah, the assumption that Alyssa enjoying fashion and caring about her appearance must be some sort of dig at everyone else is weird to me. I think she might just like makeup and fashion? And she seems to have pretty easy labors, so maybe she really is feeling great? Or maybe she wasn't, but having nice Easter pictures was important to her? 

I'm the same Type A sort as you, and I love Easter and spring fashions. So you better believe I'd be Kate Middleton-ing the hell out of my new family as soon as I could after childbirth.  The passive-aggressiveness towards enjoying makeup, fashion, fitness, and decorating that pops up on these boards sometimes is strange for a feminist site.

Someone on the Erin thread just made fun of her for putting on makeup for her first picture with Everly, saying she was fake and silly, and also felt the need to point out that Erin still looked "swollen and bad." That was nice. 

I am co-signing all of this. I love getting out of the house after birth. And I always put a little makeup on after my babies are born. I feel more ready to tackle the day and visitors with a bit of foundation and blush on. 

Fundies definitely have pressure to be camera ready and perfect but it’s also believable that they simply enjoy makeup and family outings.