Counting On, Season 4 Part 2: Still Far Behind Real Life

[Lurky]

32 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

Uh, so have I. It's still stressful. What kind of an argument is that? There are plenty of things that I've been doing since infancy that still stress me out.

Exactly this.  It's super easy for people to think they find something is easy/fun, so everyone should feel the same - but actually having to do something from early childhood can be much more stressful than something people can come to as adults.

(I could show photos of me and my siblings aged  5 to 9, about to fly solo, looking like we're trying to smile for our parents, wearing passport holders that look absurdly big on us, but for people who only know flying as pleasure, and can't understand other people's experiences, that won't convince them of anything)

[Carm_88]

I took Jana's tone more as the friend who tells you that you're looking good. It was probably an attempt to be reassuring. I know that personally if I'm not feeling great, I'd want to hear it. 

ETA: Perhaps it wasn't what Joy wanted to hear and it didn't help. I don't think that Jana was being malicious, I think that she was trying to help. 

[VeryNikeSeamstress]

4 hours ago, Lurker said:

IMO once they trained the tomboy out of Joy there was nothing left.  Joy has no idea who she is either now and is using Austin for her anchor and the Insta baby to fill her void.

This.

I've heard people speculate about what would happen with non gender conforming children in this family, and I guess this is it. Poor Joy. I could see alternate universe secular Joy wanting a very different type of a wedding, than what her family wanted for her. She'd likely be ok with getting married at City Hall and then having brunch with the immediate family if it weren't for the religious aspect of her the fact that she has to do this for the show. I'm sure there are fundies who have really casual church weddings, and even that would've suited her better.

I hope Austin loves and understands who Joy really is, and is ok with her less girly/fussy side. I'm hoping she still gets to do building and outdoorsy type of stuff, and shoehorned into some fundie Stepford wife mold.

[bethover89]

21 hours ago, Fluffy14 said:

These kids have had all decision making skills stunted for so long......fuck this fucked up family.

Exactly! She can't make decisions,  because she's never had the freedom to practice making any. Plus she's dealing with trying to find a dress she loves while under all these weird expectations that don't quite fit to be the gothardly feminine ideal. I'm one to get overwhelmed dress shopping, especially when I was younger and never chose dresses in the first place, I didn't feel comfortable in by of them regardless, so asking what I liked was fruitless. I saw her trying not to dissapoint everyone or act ungrateful to the dress designer, but really being uncomfortable in most of the dresses. But Calling Austin every moment of stress  really screams of the lack of independence and resiliency from their lifestyle. And oh poor Jenni. That tore my heart apart. It's just so shitty for her to be losing her real guardian, and also probably hard on joy. 

[stardust]

2 hours ago, singsingsing said:

Just the list of things she was dealing with at that exact moment:

 

Good list! Poor Joy. I won't quote your whole post because it is rather long, but are there any Harry Potter fans here? This scene from Order of the Phoenix comes to mind:

Ron: "One person can't feel all that at once, they'd explode."

Hermione: "Just because you've got the emotional range of a teaspoon doesn't mean we all have." 

[Lurky]

@front hugs > duggs I am giving you all the love for the flight you're worried about, and all the good vibes to go with it!  Just remember to breathe, and don't let anyone make you feel stupid about your fears - I would bet cash money you'll manage them when the time comes.

[Fluffy14]

Joy hates dresses.  So my first thought is she has to wear some freaking wedding dress she is going to hate.

I think when you hate something it is super hard to find anything you are going to like about it.

And another thing when I got married the bride usually picked out her own dress usually with her mother or friend. I actually picked mine out by myself with my husband. I tried on two dresses. One was huge and the second one fit , and looked great. I bought it .  

My daughter got married last year and she picked out her dress. We came back together she tried it on and that was it.

So is this how Canadians do it and having a big crowd is an American thing or has it become a thing since all these bridal shows?

I would hate a pile of people yakking at me,  telling me all their opinions. How can you choose a dress that you want his way?

I think Joy would have found it less stressful if just one sister went. They have been trained to please everyone but themselves, now all of a sudden it is okay to please herself?

 

[ATimetoDance]

First time poster. This is very staged. Joys story line this whole season is am just a tom boy and I don't know how to do wedding planning. Everyone must help this poor girl. We have to  pretend the story line from a few seasons ago about Joy and Sierra having a event planning business never happened. Otherwise this story line doesn't work, right.

She said she had talked to miss Renee about what she wanted. Not all lace and probably A-line. The first dress she is put in, is an all lace fitted gown. They put out mostly dresses she didn't like.  But how else are they going to sell the fact that all the sisters have to help her. I wonder if she new they were going to do that or not. Her emotion seemed real but who knows. 

What is blaring obvious is that Joy has no self esteem, at all. People who feel unlovable can't express or even figure out what they want/like so instead they express what they don't like. And because she is unworthy she is getting what Austin is worth of.

The birthday thing with Izzy. Weird and sad.  

Austin's comments about breaking the rules and upsetting JB. Yeah the totally set there own rules. Why do they keep trying to sell that lie. 

I do really want to see how the house turns out. 

[MamaJunebug]

11 hours ago, JenniferJuniper said:

The most precious of all the Duggar blessings, of course...

Ah! Thank you & all who also answered. 

[Fluffy14]

I am watching it again. Poor Joy hates them all on first glance. Look at the crossed arms and fake smile. Why couldn't she go through the rack herself? She even states in the talking head she knew two might work but they made her try them on anyhow. In the second picture look at her eyes. She thinking fuck I have to try these on. These girls have practiced the art of fake smiles they are on autopilot. 

 

 

[MotherOfDragons]

Y'all, Jenni sobbing... I can't. I never cried over a Duggar til now. I want to adopt Jenni so badly, and show her that people don't always leave. Lord that broke my cold little heart. 

[SadieJane]

So guess what I didn't watch this week. My 8 year old wanted to watch The Hunger Games and I was like, yeah why not. Anywho, without watching and basically going on what I have read.  Joy is a teenager. She is a teenager who is about to be ass deep in adult responsibility and it probably scares her. God knows it scared me. So yeah, she is going to whine. She is going to cry. She is going to snap on people and she is going to call her man for emotional support.

I like how she disliked all the dresses. None of them were her.  The dress she got wasn't her.  I feel like she was desperately trying to make the best of a horrible situation and failing. I say all of this with the knowledge that Joy is very much not my favorite sister right now, however, we have to remember that she is just a kid, and probably a very terrified kid. 

[VelociRapture]

8 hours ago, Fluffy14 said:

 So is this how Canadians do it and having a big crowd is an American thing or has it become a thing since all these bridal shows?

I would hate a pile of people yakking at me,  telling me all their opinions. How can you choose a dress that you want his way?

American here. No clue if it's only an American thing or not. From my experiences:

- I brought just mom and tried five dresses. Picked the second because it had straps, was less ornate, and I felt good in it (mom liked it too.) Done in 30 minutes flat and we spent the rest of the appointment chatting about Game of Thrones with the sales staff. Best. Appointment. Ever.

- Older sister took mom and me. I was asked to come along because I apparently have a tiny eye for fashion, I have a tendency to help people feel good in how they look, and my mom can be a bit too honest without realizing it. I don't remember how many she tried on (not too many), but I do remember her trying the one she ended up picking because I couldn't stop telling her how great she looked. And she truly did look gorgeous - but I could also tell that was one dress she was more interested in than the others (before the appointment and during), so I made a special point of helping her feel great in it. 

Mom was just happy we both got dresses with straps because she would have worried about a wardrobe malfunction our entire weddings otherwise. 

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

40 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

American here. No clue if it's only an American thing or not. From my experiences:

I know several Canadians who had large groups of people go wedding dress shopping with them.  I think it just depends on the bride how many people go some don't want anyone annoying them others want lots of help.  I had my mom my sister and 5 bridesmaids with me, because we did their dresses that day too, since I only had 6 months to get everything together.

When my sister got married it was me our mom and my daughter and her BFF.  She went in with a dress picked out mom had a dress picked out (because mom is boss) so she tried those two on and hated them both.  I was grandma Marry and saw a dress on a rack/mannequin and said "what about that?" everyone meh, but she tried it on and BOOM, that was the dress. But we didn't have to fuck with it for mock modesty standards.  

[SapphireSlytherin]

9 hours ago, ATimetoDance said:

What is blaring obvious is that Joy has no self esteem, at all.

I 100% agree with this. I was thinking (in the shower, where all my best thinking is done) about her reaction to being told something was pretty, that she looked thin, that she looked gorgeous... She didn't know HOW to respond. Why?

Because she's likely never been told she was pretty.

Because she's likely never been told her body was OK. (Yes, I have mentioned that she is "round" where her older sisters are not.)

Because she's likely only been considered "the tomboy" with no other descriptor in her nineteenness of being a kid.

Because she (as others have said) doesn't know anything other than TLC filming every "event" in her life.

Because she isn't super-close to any of the girls/women who were at her wedding dress shopping party.

All that said, she's lucky she's getting the attention NOW and being told she's pretty NOW.

I've never believed I was pretty or beautiful or cute or anything (even though my husband and my daughter have told me that constantly) because that was never mentioned in my house.

My mother never once told me I was pretty (or even passable) until about a year before she died, and she only did so THEN because I asked her what I needed to do to make myself more physically attractive. She then told me I was pretty - when I expressed shock at her words, she apologized for never telling me that. But she really didn't know how to be a mother, either. I do miss her, but it's not a giant, gaping hole in my life as others have described.

I don't care if your kid was beaten with an ugly stick, you tell her or him that they're pretty or attractive or some other positive words because even when they're grown they'll remember what you didn't say as much -- or more -- than what you did say.

[Eternalbluepearl]

9 hours ago, ATimetoDance said:

The birthday thing with Izzy. Weird and sad.  

That orange birthday cake...Why is everything about OSU with Jill and Derick? You would think they met there or Izzy was born on the football field there or something. The super fandom about the college that Derick attended is a little over the top, in my opinion. Izzy doesn't care, at 2 years old, where his father once went to school. Can Izzy have his own interests? Izzy might be 6'2" because Derick is 6'2" and so was his father and his father and oh who cares. Experience the magic of watching Israel become Israel, not a copy of Derick and Derick's father. And I simply cannot get over the irony of worshiping a school when you are against school unless it happens at home. 

[Seculardaisy]

I am honestly not sure any of us should be surprised that Joy was insufferable and indecisive about picking a dress. Remember the riveting episode of Counting On when she had to pick a pair of glasses and called her sisters to help her decide? This is nothing new.

[SapphireSlytherin]

7 minutes ago, Eternalbluepearl said:

Why is everything about OSU with Jill and Derick? You would think they met there or Izzy was born on the football field there or something. The super fandom about the college that Derick attended is a little over the top, in my opinion.

Welcome to the South, where everything is about "your" football team. Doesn't matter how long ago you attended, or even you went to school somewhere else. When it's football, it's your life.

As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.

[Feministe9000]

6 minutes ago, Eternalbluepearl said:

That orange birthday cake...Why is everything about OSU with Jill and Derick? You would think they met there or Izzy was born on the football field there or something. The super fandom about the college that Derick attended is a little over the top, in my opinion. Izzy doesn't care, at 2 years old, where his father once went to school. Can Izzy have his own interests? Izzy might be 6'2" because Derick is 6'2" and so was his father and his father and oh who cares. Experience the magic of watching Israel become Israel, not a copy of Derick and Derick's father. And I simply cannot get over the irony of worshiping a school when you are against school unless it happens at home. 

I thought this was so weird too......it's like the birthday cake was for Derick! I mean, why is his son's 2nd birthday cake decorated with HIS university's school colors and name? I don't get it......

As though they couldn't think of anything else to put on his cake? No animals, or his NAME? or something more fitting for a 2 year old?
I hope now they are back in the States, Izzy will be able to have more interaction with his cousins and aunts and uncles, and be around more children, and HAVE FUN, and maybe he'll have a real birthday next year, like he deserves, because he is clearly a loving, sweet innocent little boy, and it makes me so angry  Derick is so selfish that he can't even allow his 2 year old son's birthday cake to be about his son, instead of him. I hope one day, he will experience intense, overwhelming, crushing SHAME for the way he is treating his children.
I've said this before: if you continue to raise Izzy this way, and treat  him the way you do, I hope he gives you HELL.  You will deserve every bit of it.  What a NASTY man you are.

oh and Jill, YOU ARE A DAMN FOOL.

 

 

[Feministe9000]

Just now, SapphireSlytherin said:

Welcome to the South, where everything is about "your" football team. Doesn't matter how long ago you attended, or even you went to school somewhere else. When it's football, it's your life.

As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.

Then how come Bradley Bates' birthday cakes (so far) haven't been like that?

Or Carson Paine? Or Paul Waller? I know Ben and Jessa have used the Razorbacks before, but I'm sorry, it isn't normal......Derick is such a dickhead.

 

[sansan]

15 hours ago, 2manyKidzzz said:

Austin is the person in Joy's life who she knows is actually really focused on her. Her mom moved to SCA. Austin is for her. 

When you are one of 19 that might be a big deal. Just sayin'

This, spot on!  Joy was watered down pretty early on and doesn't know what she wants. I think Austin is good for her although at an early age. Austin is her excuse for some decisions because basically she does not give a damn. The whole gown trying on part was almost comical. I was not sure if they were just trying to pump her up or they truly meant it, every time she walked out they were all "Oh Joy, you look amazing!" when clearly she did not. I personally was proud of her for not making a break for it, running into the streets screaming "leave me the hell alone."

I also had to wonder how hard they had to work at getting those little girls to bawling, they were not interested enough to even be there, no matter who's buddies they were.

[SassyPants]

She was overwhelmed because she's a young adult in years, yet a child in maturation. THIS is the product that the Duggars unleash onto the world. I would seriously question the motives of any person, but particularly man, who would be attracted to this family or one of these 2nd generation Duggars.

It still always baffles me that for the oldest Duggar kids (now adults), that their childhoods were robbed being parents to their parents' kids, yet maturation was stunted at a time they should have been given more independence and ability to make decisions and mistakes.

The first decision they make is marriage (daddy previously approved, of course)...who can't see the problems associated with this system????

TL;DR- Joy doesn't know HOW to make an independent decision- and it seems the only person that she really trusts for now, is Austin, which doesn't reflect very well on the quality of  Duggar on Duggar relationships.

I'm betting in the future, there will be college classes based on reality TV participants, particularly children, and the lasting effects experienced.

 

ETA- this was filmed 25 days before the wedding???? She already had her dress. Hell, I ordered and designed an Amish quilt ,and it took the Amish woman 7 months to make it....and those folks can raise a barn in a weekend.

[Four is Enough]

Joy MIGHT have been ok running other people's business, as in a wedding planning business.. because she didn't have to make decisions, she just had to act on decisions other people made. I doubt that ever got off the ground.

The dress? I went shopping the first time with ONE friend. Loved the first dress, seriously, had the MOMENT, and she said "you never buy the first dress", made me try on 30 others, (I counted) and I finally went back alone and bought the first dress.

The second time, I went alone. Thought I knew what I wanted, tried it on, and EW.. tried on a second one, and OK wrap it up.

I'm so over Duggars. I don't watch the show because I can't stand the voices and bad grammar. Thank you all for the recaps...

[lumpentheologie]

Just want to chime in that lots of Americans don't do the big wedding dress shopping outing. Since I've been engaged I'm starting to realize how many people actually don't do the whole 'big wedding' narrative we come to expect from the media.  I knew I didn't want a "wedding dress" for my wedding -- I wanted a simple white dress that I could wear again.  I saw one in a store window that called to me, walked in and bought it.  Totally alone, while running errands.  I couldn't have asked for a better dress shopping experience. I would have been miserable in a situation like Joy's, feeling all this pressure to take other people's opinions into consideration whether I like the things they like or not, having all these people waiting for me to make a decision.  That would have been so stressful and I probably would have chosen a dress I didn't like just to make it stop. 

[PainfullyAware]

Just wanted to say thanks to everyone who reminded me that we're talking about a kid here. While I personally find it difficult to watch her being super indecisive to the point that you wonder why she's even doing this because she seems so miserable, it really is more of a testament to the messed-up situation she lives with then her character. 

She can't have the wedding she really wants because she has to meet all these other people's expectations. And the wedding everyone else wants is so huge and the project itself is so overwhelming that she probably is just having really bad anxiety about it. Even with an army of sisters to help her, the fact this has been done before several times, and even that it really doesn't need to be perfect (just pinterest-worthy), she's probably freaking out at the thought of being the center of attention. She is just a very sheltered, inexperienced and immature 19 year old trying to plan a giant wedding with the predictable result that she hates the whole thing.

I agree with the poster who said that I think in a lot of ways she feels so uncomfortable because this type of wedding celebrates hyperfemininity and really magnifies the fact that she doesn't fit in with that cultural expectation. Maybe that's partly why she wants Austin to constantly validate her because he's the only voice that makes her feel still lovable for who she is.